DB fly vs. bench press

[ironwill2008]

scooby is a beast

His broscience-based postings in the 'nutrition' forum a few months ago resulted in him getting his ass handed to him on multiple occasions.

[mmorton]

Try doing only flys for the chest. If it works out for you, great. Find out what works best for you and go with that

[Tyciol]

His broscience-based postings in the 'nutrition' forum a few months ago resulted in him getting his ass handed to him on multiple occasions.

Lots of guys with legit training ideas have stupid nutrition ideas, so this doesn't make me look down on him in the Exercise section.

[Engineer_Guy]

Yesterday I did 3 sets of 10 flat bench dumbbell fly, 50, 60 and 70 pounds respectively, and today my chest feels more sore than it did after years of heavy bench pressing and dipping and so forth. I can't even compare it really, the feeling is worlds apart. I can tell this will really blow up my chest.

Gee, maybe your chest feels sore because you don't regularly do flies? Obviously you aren't going to get as sore from something you have been doing for years versus something you never do.

On topic: Why don't you just do both? I find bench pressing to be far too useful to drop completely regardless of how effective it works your chest.

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

Gee, maybe your chest feels sore because you don't regularly do flies? Obviously you aren't going to get as sore from something you have been doing for years versus something you never do.

On topic: Why don't you just do both? I find bench pressing to be far too useful to drop completely regardless of how effective it works your chest.

I can't bench press properly due to equipment limitations (home gym)

[Engineer_Guy]

I can't bench press properly due to equipment limitations (home gym)

How are you even comparing the two then?

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

How are you even comparing the two then?

Because I had a long history with chain gyms and have done plenty of benching in my time.

[Engineer_Guy]

Because I had a long history with chain gyms and have done plenty of benching in my time.

So let me make sure I've got the situation understood correctly.

You currently do not bench press. But you have bench pressed in the past. You tried doing flies recently and because you were really sore your last workout, you believe they are better than bench pressing for building chest strength?

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

So let me make sure I've got the situation understood correctly.

You currently do not bench press. But you have bench pressed in the past. You tried doing flies recently and because you were really sore your last workout, you believe they are better than bench pressing for building chest strength?

You have this really bad habit of coming into my threads and assuming I'm a retard.

I'm gonna go ahead and let you read my posts in this thread and give you a chance to answer your own questions. If your reread leaves anything unanswered we can try this again.

[Tyciol]

How are you even comparing the two then?

Engineer I have never fought a mountain lion or a tiger. How can I compare which cat is strongest?

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

Hey y'all.

I have been training for almost exactly one month doing absolutely nothing for my chest except the dumbbell fly. Absolutely no bench press variants, barbell or dumbbell. No cable crossovers or any of that crap either, because I lack access to that kind of equipment.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to go to a chain gym on a guest pass with a friend. We tested our bench press maxes. After doing many reps with 225, I worked up to 245, 255 and 265, narrowly failing at 275. It was a nice controlled negative, I barely couldn't move it once it touched my chest. I haven't done bench presses of any kind for at least a season if not longer, so this ability is entirely based on a combination of the dumbbell fly and the jerk.

Seeing as I've only been training this way for a month and I touched 275 without dying, I bet I could put a few pounds onto my jerk and chest fly and go back to some gym and smoke 285+, if not 3 plates.

[DJAuto]

I use flys as a finishing movement. I can guarantee that someone pressing will have better results in the long run compared to someone just performing flys.

[Tyciol]

Hey y'all.

I have been training for almost exactly one month doing absolutely nothing for my chest except the dumbbell fly. Absolutely no bench press variants, barbell or dumbbell. No cable crossovers or any of that crap either, because I lack access to that kind of equipment.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to go to a chain gym on a guest pass with a friend. We tested our bench press maxes. After doing many reps with 225, I worked up to 245, 255 and 265, narrowly failing at 275. It was a nice controlled negative, I barely couldn't move it once it touched my chest. I haven't done bench presses of any kind for at least a season if not longer, so this ability is entirely based on a combination of the dumbbell fly and the jerk.

Seeing as I've only been training this way for a month and I touched 275 without dying, I bet I could put a few pounds onto my jerk and chest fly and go back to some gym and smoke 285+, if not 3 plates.

How do you get into position to train the jerk? Do you clean first, or do you have it pre-elevated on a power rack safety bars?

[itwasntme184]

you can go heavier on bench than flies so the increased strength promotes mass building

it depends a lot on your form/grip as well as to how well your chest is worked during pressing

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

How do you get into position to train the jerk? Do you clean first, or do you have it pre-elevated on a power rack safety bars?

I clean the bar. It's the clean and jerk to me, I just focus on the jerk part.

As for everyone else who still says benching is necessary, I reiterate: I can now bench almost 275 pounds, and I achieved this almost solely through use of the dumbbell fly. I flat out deny that the bench press is a movement necessary for the aspiring bodybuilder, and assert strongly that the bench press is not necessary for acquiring a strong chest. Furthermore I assert that increasing your max on the bench press does not require any consistent training in the bench press.

Do I need to bench 3 plates before people will admit I've figured something out? I'll do it if you need me to, just give me another month or so... of complete abstinence from bench pressing, that is.

[vindogga]

was taught fly's build definition more then anything? and i've always found bench to be a great builder of chest strength, along with flat dumbbell press and deadlifts to release those hormones.

[BombDonald]

I don't see how it wouldn't work just fine. If I remember right a lot of guys that do DC training use it as one of their main rotating lifts (3 exercises per bodypart, use only 1 per workout). It really just depends on the individual and how they will respond to certain exercises.

But in all reality, you should lift 3 plates

[Flex500]

Following my most recent workout, I'm starting to believe that for building chest strength, the dumbbell fly is much better than the bench press.

It kinda makes sense. The function of the pectoralis major is to "flex, adduct and rotate the arm medially." The bench press accomplishes this, but it also utilizes a tricep extension in the process.

I propose that by taking the triceps out of the equation entirely and just doing a heavy dumbbell fly for your main chest workout, you can work the chest much harder. The triceps can be worked separately anyway if you're trying to be a bodybuilder, and are often worked in other pressing exercises by default.

Yesterday I did 3 sets of 10 flat bench dumbbell fly, 50, 60 and 70 pounds respectively, and today my chest feels more sore than it did after years of heavy bench pressing and dipping and so forth. I can't even compare it really, the feeling is worlds apart. I can tell this will really blow up my chest.

Everyone here wants big chesticles too, what are your thoughts on the issue? Assuming an otherwise well rounded program, is there any reason a person shouldn't use the dumbbell fly as the basis for their chest work rather than the bench press?

I think it is perfectly valid. Look at guys like evan centopani he starts with 1-2 excercises of some sort of fly and his chest keeps getting better and better. The ONLY reason dorian yates didn't start with db flys was because the amount of weight he woudl need to use isn't condusive to safety. Starting your working with 120-150 pound db's to do a fly movement doesn't seem real safe.

I think that is the primary issue. Horizontal shoudler adduction is the best way to stimulate the pecs. But you can only do that safely to a certain point. Whereas some for of bench say incline you are not in as compromising of a situation with even 300, 400, 500+ pounds on the bar.

I used to start every workout with db fly. Probably is you start doing that with 120 pounds and yoru shoulder starts hurting or you get other issues.


I do think presses are extremely valuable though and fly's should not be put in place of them totally. To me it is sort of like cardio. Lower intensity cardio burns a higher % of fat but when you look at things practically you often will burn more calories...and in the end more fat by doing higher intensity cardio. So although when you look at cardio in a vacuum and you see low intensity burns more fat it may not be the best thing to do to burn the most fat.

Not apples to apples but the point is just because fly's my activate the pecs the most you have to look at the overall work and load of doing presses to see their value.

[Flex500]

His broscience-based postings in the 'nutrition' forum a few months ago resulted in him getting his ass handed to him on multiple occasions.

someone fair point but there are orthopedic surgeons I work with everyday who give CRAZY nutrition advice but are brillant when it comes to orthopedic injuries/surgery. Often these guys are giving people advice to lose some weight before hip/knee replacments....and some of it is crazy. I heard an MD who uses my companies knee replacements tell a guy he needs to go no fat diet to help lose weight. The more fat in teh diet the more fat on the body regardless of calorie count.


This is one of the best orthopedic surgeons in columbus, OH.

[Kevbazz]

I couldn't find another post (well to be honest too lazy and im just back from the gym and my arms are sore) but regarding chest workouts, Last week I did 24's in Flat bench DB press, incline DB press and my forearms started to give way towards the end, they just felt too stiff to get them last few reps out, and today I did the same 24's but they started to stiffen and fail mid set. I could barely make it to 5. I've not lifted more than last week but compared to it I just felt much weaker. But last week instead of machine flyers I did the Scoobies bench flyer for the squeeze. Surely this couldnt of destroyed my forearms for a full week right?

I dont use gloves and I pretty much use free weights for everything except the cable machine (but thats been broken for well over a month and its pissed me off i cant do high/mid/low cables for my chest workout)

Anyone know why my forearms are just pussying out on me?

[oldballs]

Hey y'all.

I have been training for almost exactly one month doing absolutely nothing for my chest except the dumbbell fly. Absolutely no bench press variants, barbell or dumbbell. No cable crossovers or any of that crap either, because I lack access to that kind of equipment.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to go to a chain gym on a guest pass with a friend. We tested our bench press maxes. After doing many reps with 225, I worked up to 245, 255 and 265, narrowly failing at 275. It was a nice controlled negative, I barely couldn't move it once it touched my chest. I haven't done bench presses of any kind for at least a season if not longer, so this ability is entirely based on a combination of the dumbbell fly and the jerk.

Seeing as I've only been training this way for a month and I touched 275 without dying, I bet I could put a few pounds onto my jerk and chest fly and go back to some gym and smoke 285+, if not 3 plates.

just read first post and some of the second page, if I took a month off from a movement I would not be suprised if I came back stronger at it.Taking a month off can give you that complete rest you really need. Please bump this thread years from now after not benching and tell us how you are doing. The most I ever squated was after I took 2 months off because of back issues, is the lesson here to never squat so my numbers go up? no, its to know when to take a break from a movement and when to start to do that movement again.

[Rasputin4]

Have you tried dumbbell bench much? I honestly find that to be the best option for chest, but maybe that's just me. It allows me to hit my pecs better but without the shoulder problems barbell causes. It allows me to follow a natural path of motion and achieve optimal pec contraction throughout the lift. Flyes never worked for me because the horizonal rotation of the shoulder while holding weights extended in each arm always seems to hit my shoulders as much if not more than my chest and shoulder discomfort would prevent me from ever going very heavy on them unless I did them with bent elbows. I'm curious, were you benching your elbows? If you bent them very much, it might be a fine line between a middle range of motion bench press and a bent elbow flye. In any case, the best thing I've ever found for pec contraction with freeweights has been dumbbell bench.

[Kevbazz]

I couldn't find another post (well to be honest too lazy and im just back from the gym and my arms are sore) but regarding chest workouts, Last week I did 24's in Flat bench DB press, incline DB press and my forearms started to give way towards the end, they just felt too stiff to get them last few reps out, and today I did the same 24's but they started to stiffen and fail mid set. I could barely make it to 5. I've not lifted more than last week but compared to it I just felt much weaker. But last week instead of machine flyers I did the Scoobies bench flyer for the squeeze. Surely this couldnt of destroyed my forearms for a full week right?

I dont use gloves and I pretty much use free weights for everything except the cable machine (but thats been broken for well over a month and its pissed me off i cant do high/mid/low cables for my chest workout)

Anyone know why my forearms are just pussying out on me?

Bump:
Could I please get a quick response please? I would really appreciate it.

[MichaelCJ]

Bump:
Could I please get a quick response please? I would really appreciate it.

What is your current lifting routine? And what is the weight, right now, for each exercise?

Also, height and weight might help.

[scooby1961]

scooby is a beast

Thanks! Not bad for a senior citizen BTW, you probably know I have a lot of "anti-fans" here on BB.com. For example:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=143189623

Honestly, I think a small part of it is the fact that teenagers are mad that someone the age of their grandfather has a better physique than they do

[midcoastking33]

Thanks! Not bad for a senior citizen BTW, you probably know I have a lot of "anti-fans" here on BB.com. For example:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=143189623

Honestly, I think a small part of it is the fact that teenagers are mad that someone the age of their grandfather has a better physique than they do

No natty, no care

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

Anyone know why my forearms are just pussying out on me?

I don't know. Tell us more about your training and your training history and you'll probably get help. How long have you been working out? How long have you been doing what you're now doing, and how has your progress been?

Keep in mind that "your muscles break down before they build back up" was the old wisdom from the days when weight lifting was actually good.

The following is probably unrelated but I wanted to throw it out there:

Beginners often have plateaus because they reach a point where they know how to do the exercises correctly, but not how to get their body to add mass or gain strength. They feel that they are genetically doomed to never deadlift more than 315 or bench more than bodyweight because they don't really know the procedure for putting weight onto lifts (i.e. add reps first, then add weight, eat a buttload of protein, sleep well).

I have a personal theory that a big part of lifting is tendon strength, and that people who intentionally or unintentionally manage to build tendon strength and thickness will become successful lifters. There are neurons within all of our connective tissues that fire whenever the tendon stretches too much, i.e. is uncomfortably close to failure. When those neurons fire they cause the muscle associated with the tendon to relax involuntarily, and this runs counter to conscious contraction. This is the principle upon which PNF stretching is founded. I personally believe that this is part of the reason some people have inexplicable plateaus far beyond the initial "I am a newbie who doesn't know how to get stronger" plateau somewhere in the first year of lifting - I think their tendons are not yet strong enough to feel comfortable with the weights they are handling and are neurologically sabotaging their lifting at a level even more fundamental than a spinal reflex arc.

[Kevbazz]

What is your current lifting routine? And what is the weight, right now, for each exercise?

Also, height and weight might help.

5'6'' tall
Weight pre workout 12.5
Weight post workout 12.8 stone.

Currently do my chest workouts with 22-24's DB's, My biceps I do with 12's DB's or on the cable pulleys with around 50 depending if its before or after DB set. Tris on cable machine around 60 and kickbacks with 18-16 DB's

[IDrinkBloodLOL]

5'6'' tall
Weight pre workout 12.5
Weight post workout 12.8 stone.

Currently do my chest workouts with 22-24's DB's, My biceps I do with 12's DB's or on the cable pulleys with around 50 depending if its before or after DB set. Tris on cable machine around 60 and kickbacks with 18-16 DB's

Stone? WTF? Nugga, put this crap into metric or american or something.

[Kevbazz]

I don't know. Tell us more about your training and your training history and you'll probably get help. How long have you been working out? How long have you been doing what you're now doing, and how has your progress been?

Keep in mind that "your muscles break down before they build back up" was the old wisdom from the days when weight lifting was actually good.

The following is probably unrelated but I wanted to throw it out there:

Beginners often have plateaus because they reach a point where they know how to do the exercises correctly, but not how to get their body to add mass or gain strength. They feel that they are genetically doomed to never deadlift more than 315 or bench more than bodyweight because they don't really know the procedure for putting weight onto lifts (i.e. add reps first, then add weight, eat a buttload of protein, sleep well).

I have a personal theory that a big part of lifting is tendon strength, and that people who intentionally or unintentionally manage to build tendon strength and thickness will become successful lifters. There are neurons within all of our connective tissues that fire whenever the tendon stretches too much, i.e. is uncomfortably close to failure. When those neurons fire they cause the muscle associated with the tendon to relax involuntarily, and this runs counter to conscious contraction. This is the principle upon which PNF stretching is founded. I personally believe that this is part of the reason some people have inexplicable plateaus far beyond the initial "I am a newbie who doesn't know how to get stronger" plateau somewhere in the first year of lifting - I think their tendons are not yet strong enough to feel comfortable with the weights they are handling and are neurologically sabotaging their lifting at a level even more fundamental than a spinal reflex arc.

In a previous thread I wrote down all my routines but I cant find it so I'll just write it again and hope someone replies this time.

I've been in the gym 4-5 days a week on avg since janurary 1st. Besides this week and last week I've been going up in DB weight per week successfully.

Monday:
DB bench press flat & incline
Machine flyers (as of a month or so ago) I was doing high/med/low cable flys but my gym has yet to repair it for over a month

Tuesday: (as of today)
Lat pulldowns (70kg)
Lat side and front raises (10kg)
Bent over DB rows (20kg)
Mid-body rows -pulley (70kg)
Goodmornings (alt week Deadlift)
Wednesday:
Leg curls both single and both
Leg extensions both single and both
Leg press both single and both
Squats

Thursday:
Bicep curls
DB bicep curls
DB hammer curls
DB reverse grip curls
Tricep kickbacks (alt week flat DBbench press)
Tricep pulldowns and reverse-grip pulldowns
Tricep extensions

Friday rest

Saturday
30-40min treadmill
15-25min cycle machine

Pre-workout weight 79.3kgs / 173lbs
Post-workout weight 81.2kgs / 179lbs
Height 167.64cm / 5foot6inches.