Why does it seem like everyone is overtraining?

[hoffmanxtreme]

I'm in no position to judge or critique anyones exercise routine, but I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they train same muscle groups multiple times/week. I've been lurking around the forums for quite some time gathering all sorts of information regarding training for gaining mass. . . . and maybe its just my lack of knowledge to bodybuilding, but isn't training this way a big mistake if your going for maximum growth in minimal time?(which is what everyone wants right?)

My understanding(which may be wrong because I'm still learning) is this:

If you are looking for a training routine that is most effective in muscle growth, you need to train your muscles very hard, and give them PLENTY of rest to recover from such a damaging & intense workout. So this means we need to utilize the rest period to the fullest and allow our muscles to recover and grow so they can handle a heavier workload the next time we train them. Why break down more muscle tissue while your muscles are still growing?

It seems very counter-productive to continously train muscle groups while they are still sore and/or not fully recovered yet.


Some more thought. . .
This seems like a decent example of a training routine for maximum growth stimulation & recovery:

Monday: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps (All the pushing muscles)
Wednesday: Back, Biceps, abs (All the pulling muscles)
Friday: Lower body (Legs, Glutes)
All other days = resting days

Side Note: Workout sessions lasting approx. 60-75 minutes(Testosterone level peaks around this time?)
Side Note: Also - During these training sessions, the goal is to really blast those muscle groups enough so they have endured sufficient damage, enough to initiate growth during the recovery(rest) period. Good way to accomplish this: eccentric training?

I've been using this training routine for the past 4 weeks and it seems to be very effective. My muscles are very sore for about 4-5 days after training them, hence why I only train a muscle group once per week. So far, I'm up 2.5 pounds from 4 weeks ago, no bf% change. (But his may be only because I'm a true begginer at this and I'm experiencing those magical begginer gains everyone talks about )


Maybe this post more-so applies to all the new guys(like me) to the bodybuilding world but I sure would like to hear some other experienced guys' opinions on this?

[dday39]

you've got a lot to learn

train like a juiced bodybuilder if you are a juiced bodybuilder

check out the top novice programs and the results from real people on these and other forums. you'll find sufficient volume, high frequency, work that focuses on the heavy compound barbell lifts. for novices and naturals, this is very efficient and an optimal way to train to get both big and strong

[joea9]

I do a three-day-split similar to yours but I do it twice a week.

workout1
workout2
workout3
workout1
workout2
workout3
rest

If I only did it once, I would be making half the progress, and wasting half a week of time per bodypart.

Alot of beginners can make good gains doing a full body workout 3 times a week, IMO, a beginner is wasting time doing each bodypart only once a week.
I suspect you don't need a week to recover, but obviously, you need to listen to your own body (try higher frequency before you dismiss it).

[j1akey]

Alot of people do end up over training because they don't know any better. More is not always more unless you really know what you're doing. Newbies like me benefit more from simple programs where as a more advanced lifter will most likely need to start adding various isolation movements as their training progresses to get the desired effect if they're trying to work on specific muscles. Unfortunately alot of new lifters try these advanced programs and go no where because they don't even have a decent muscle and strength base to build upon in the first place before moving to these advanced programs.

[billb7581]

OP, I squat Bench and Deadlift 3x a week... u mad?

[hoffmanxtreme]

OP, I squat Bench and Deadlift 3x a week... u mad?

With your stats at 276lbs and 32%bodyfat, I'm inclined to be confused as to why you would find this neccessary if your training for maximum muscle growth & mass(bulking). Unless your just trying to be funny and are joking? Again, I apologize if I'm clueless and just misinformed.

I'm assuming you're on a cut, using light weights and cardio? Doing squats and deadlifts with such light weights would seem fine 3x a week. . . .However my initial post was about training for gaining maximum muscle mass, not cutting.

Edit: However if I'm assuming wrong about this, I would like to hear more details on what your diet/training routine is so I can be further educated on what works for others, and not just myself.

[billb7581]

Not cutting doing All Pro simple beginner routine.

Your program is ridiculous for someone just starting out, and not using gear.

edit.. needed to update stats.

BF is now 27%

Was 32% at 300 lbs

[serenity45]

Protein synthesis only lasts about 48 hours after initially training a specific muscle group. If you're not sore still and protein synthesis has maxed out why not train again. I follow a push/pull. Push on mon/thurs and pull on tues/fri. Have seen far better results once I increased volume and frequency. If your eating enough and sleeping enough, training each muscle group twice and even three times a week for beginners is optimal.

[joea9]

OP, just to strip it down and answer simply...

As a general rule, a week long recovery is not needed after each workout. Depending on the routine, 2-3 times a week on a single bodypart is not overtraining.

If you want to see what works for other people, look at tried and tested beginner routines, google it, or check the stickies here.

[james0566]

For optimal gains, you need to train as heavy (intense) and frequent as you can recover from.

It will be different for everyone

It will change for everyone through their lifting career

[billb7581]

Young guy should do starting strength.... older guy should do All Pro's IMO.

When you can squat 2x your body weight and bench 1.5 x your body weight, you are ready for a bodybuilding split like you are doing.

Unless you are a genetic freak you shouldn't be moving enough weight to take a week to recover, and if you're just talking about general muscle soreness (DOMS) you need to take the sports bra off and work through it, or you will never get over the DOMS.

[hoffmanxtreme]

I appreciate all the feedback guys.

It sounds like I was slightly wrong about my information. I will probably increase my frequence just slightly. Instead of allowing 5-6 days for recovery I will probably try 3-4 days instead and see how it goes. Allowing less than that for recovery at this point seems it may be too much because of my training intensity and prolonged soreness. My muscles are still very sore from 3-4 days after training, so I assuming they are still recovering.

Again, thank you for all the comments....I am still learning.

[billb7581]

Why are you even doing a split?

What kind of volume? If your weight training is like a marathon cardio circuit session you're not helping your bulking cause.


Seriously, look at the Simple Beginner Routine at the top of the forum.. you have heavy/medium/light days to aid in your recovery (active recovery) by doing the exercises again on 1 day rest you are getting blood and nutriens back into the muscle. I am twice your age and haven't had a problem with it.

[hoffmanxtreme]

Why are you even doing a split?

What kind of volume? If your weight training is like a marathon cardio circuit session you're not helping your bulking cause.


Seriously, look at the Simple Beginner Routine at the top of the forum.. you have heavy/medium/light days to aid in your recovery (active recovery) by doing the exercises again on 1 day rest you are getting blood and nutriens back into the muscle. I am twice your age and haven't had a problem with it.

My training sessions are 1 hour long. Example of push day = Barbell Flat Bench Press, Barbell Shoulder Press, & Weighted Dips. All exercises done with heavy weight, low reps, eccentric-focusing greatly on the negative portion of each rep. . . (I look like I lift weights in slow motion).

And I will look more into the threads you guys are refering to so I can get a bit more knowledge on this.

[ironwill2008]

I'm in no position to judge or critique anyones exercise routine, but I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they train same muscle groups multiple times/week. I've been lurking around the forums for quite some time gathering all sorts of information regarding training for gaining mass. . . . and maybe its just my lack of knowledge to bodybuilding, but isn't training this way a big mistake if your going for maximum growth in minimal time?(which is what everyone wants right?)

I'd advise you to use caution in regards to whose advice you take in this forum. Most of the people, both asking, and advising in here have little/no real experience and pretty much just parrot what they've read either in here or out of muscle magazines.

As far as the question of what's an appropriate amount of volume of training, and frequency of working individual body parts, it's a matter of training experience. Noobs will make faster progress by doing fewer exercises per body part, but working those same body parts multiple times per week. They're untrained, and anything they do will cause a fairly rapid increase in strength (along with an eventual increase in mass, if they're eating and resting appropriately). They also aren't able to create enough intensity to be able to overwork body parts at this point, so the more work that can be put on a body part, the quicker that body part will adapt. Of course, the quick progress this type of training produces doesn't last forever, and eventually, the trainee's progress will begin to stall.

At this point, volume will have to increase, along with an commensurate decrease in frequency in order to see any additional progress. The usual best move is from a beginner's Full Body program to a body part split.

It seems very counter-productive to continously train muscle groups while they are still sore and/or not fully recovered yet.

That statement's validity would depend on your definition of 'continuously.' No one will recommend that body parts get no recovery time. Again, it's dependent on the trainee's experience level. Most noobs will be able to train the same body parts three times a week. Just about every good beginner program is based off this frequency.

Soreness isn't necessarily an indicator of whether or not a muscle can be trained again. For most noobs, they're going to be sore all the time, since they're not conditioned, and the last thing they should be doing is missing scheduled workouts because they're "sore." The only way to get conditioned is to do the scheduled work. Soreness in noobs (not talking about actual injury here, just DOMS) can usually be taken care of with a few extra minutes' overall warmup at the beginning of a workout along with an extra light set or two of the first couple of exercises in the routine.

This seems like a decent example of a training routine for maximum growth stimulation & recovery:

Monday: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps (All the pushing muscles)
Wednesday: Back, Biceps, abs (All the pulling muscles)
Friday: Lower body (Legs, Glutes)
All other days = resting days

What you listed here would be an appropriate split routine for an intermediate trainee--someone who has already burned through all his noob gains, and needs a routine to increase volume, but decrease frequency. I wouldn't recommend a split for noobs.

Side Note: Workout sessions lasting approx. 60-75 minutes(Testosterone level peaks around this time?)

Bodybuilding training isn't a timed event. While there's no value to be gained by loafing or wasting time socializing in the gym, taking enough time between sets so you are ready to lift maximum weight for maximum reps on the next set is the right way to go. If you're training on any kind of reasonably-balanced routine/program, just stay in there as long as it takes for you to get your work done in good fashion. Forget the clock.

Side Note: Also - During these training sessions, the goal is to really blast those muscle groups enough so they have endured sufficient damage, enough to initiate growth during the recovery(rest) period. Good way to accomplis this: eccentric training?

There's no requirement to "really blast" your muscles (again, this is dependent on your definition of "blast"); the only thing that's required to promote growth is to progress the weight and/or reps lifted, with good form, on a consistent basis. If it's just one rep more than you got on a particular exercise/set than last time, that's enough.

Attempting to add "set extenders" such as eccentrics (otherwise known as negatives), drop sets, supersets, etc. will usually only serve to burn up your recovery ability. Better to stick with straight sets and work on simple progression at the beginner level.

I've been using this training routine for the past 4 weeks and it seems to be very effective. My muscles are very sore for about 4-5 days after training them, hence why I only train a muscle group once per week. So far, I'm up 2.5 pounds from 4 weeks ago, no bf% change. (But his may be only because I'm a true begginer at this and I'm experiencing those magical begginer gains everyone talks about )

You are currently reaping the benefit of doing something more than what you were doing previously (no training at all).

[hoffmanxtreme]

Ironwill2008 -

I seriously appreciate your feedback to my thread and I am most grateful for your knowledge. I couldn't ask for more. I definetly have some changes to be made in regards to my training routine. It's a good thing I'm only on my second month of weight training, otherwise I would have probably been wasting a lot of my time.

Again, Thank you for helping me out.

[ironwill2008]

yw.

I felt the thought you put into your OP merited a thoughtful response. OPs such as yours are rare in this forum.

Good luck.

[billb7581]

Nice job Will... OP take a look at the simple beginner routine (srs) I know it's not flashy but it works.

[lllDBOlll]

Hey man,

I'm doing a modified version of GST at the moment. Although I've frequented gyms from an early age it was only last May that I started training seriously (compound lifts, logging workouts, eating right) and I've had a pretty good turn out so far.

If you search growth stimulus training on this site you will find the workout basis; I've enjoyed doing it, it's more of a method of training than a short term program.

I currently do:

Press 1
Pull
Off
Squat
Press 2
Off
Lift
Off

This has worked really well for me in terms of recovery - its very rare that I miss a scheduled lifting day and rarer still that I miss a set / rep. Along with the core lifts I supplement with a 6rep x 5 set week, 8 x 5, 4 x 6 and a 10 x 4, in that order.

In respect to time taken for workout it depends on the intensity of the session. The 4 x 6 and 6 x 5 are my heaviest days and sometimes require more rest time; I make sure I rest to get the work done and dusted but I don't go back in the house and make a coffee / put my feet up between sets if you know what I mean.

Have a look at GST it might be for you.

Dan

[jgreystoke]

If it is working for them, then it is not overtraining.

It seems very counter-productive to continously train muscle groups while they are still sore and/or not fully recovered yet.

Hitting a sore muscle with a light session of the same exercise, or an overlapping exercise, is better for recovery than total rest.

Beginners on SS squat three times a week, add 5lbs every time to the bar, and don't get too sore.

Monday: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps (All the pushing muscles)
Wednesday: Back, Biceps, abs (All the pulling muscles)
Friday: Lower body (Legs, Glutes)
All other days = resting days

That is not a program. Just a list of bodyparts. We all have them.

You don't need a split as a beginner. WS4SB is an exception. It is a real program, it is a simple upper/lower split, it is designed for beginners.

If you want more emphasis on mass, All Pro's Simple Beginner Program is for you. It is fullbody.

Side Note: Workout sessions lasting approx. 60-75 minutes(Testosterone level peaks around this time?)
Side Note: Also - During these training sessions, the goal is to really blast those muscle groups enough so they have endured sufficient damage, enough to initiate growth during the recovery(rest) period. Good way to accomplish this: eccentric training?

Eating natural saturated fats, and taking Zinc will help your test production. Test levels tend to peak in the early morning when you are not training at all.

You don't "blast" those muscle groups. You get your scheduled reps in decent form. Add 5lbs next time as a reward. That will give your muscles a reason to improve.

You seriously don't need eccentric training. You need to add a plate to your squat and dead. And then another.

I've been using this training routine for the past 4 weeks and it seems to be very effective. My muscles are very sore for about 4-5 days after training them, hence why I only train a muscle group once per week. So far, I'm up 2.5 pounds from 4 weeks ago, no bf% change. (But his may be only because I'm a true begginer at this and I'm experiencing those magical begginer gains everyone talks about )

Your muscles are sore BECAUSE you only hit them once a week. So they become somewhat deconditioned. If you train at higher frequency, then there is less soreness.

Soreness is subjective, and not progress.

Squatting 5lbs more than last time for the same reps is objective(you can measure it) progress. Or squat the same weight for more reps.

Initial strength gains are mostly neural and mechanical efficiency as you learn the exercises. So usually little/no visible muscle gain at all. AFTER initial gains, the muscles fibers have to get bigger......to handle an increasing load. So you must train progressively, increasing the weight on the bar for big exercises regularly until you are much more advanced.