Reinforcing Power Rack Sabre Spotters Pin & Pipe Style

[Iakovos]

Hi everyone, I had this thought the other day while lusting over some out of reach Elite racks online. I've got an old powertec with the Sabre spotters but this would also apply to Powerline racks and any others with Sabre spotters as well.

Would encasing the one inch thick sabers with two inch ( or whagever diameter) thick steel pipes drastically increase their safety strength along the same way that Elite's & Texas Strength System's racks do with their 3/8" pin ( I think)in thicker pipes?

Would it give the same barbell sparing shock absorption properties I believe they both claim?

I'm thinking if this worked the limiting factor in safety strength would be the integrity of the rack holes? Maybe the shock absorption of the pipes would of benefit here as well?

I'm honestly curious and would appreciate input. I'm always looking for ways to sex up my regular joe equipment to higher levels.

[Iakovos]

Wow I thought some of you guys would be all over this idea.

I guess no one else is rocking the sabre spotters anymore :-(

[clockwork247]

Wow I thought some of you guys would be all over this idea.

I guess no one else is rocking the sabre spotters anymore :-(

there's only a few on here that's into the DIY stuff, most of these guys are into the "commercial" high grade equipment.

the problem with the sabre bar is that you have to pull it all the way out through the holes to change height, so you can't really add anything to the bar...

however with the j-hook or rotating lock bar, you can add a 2nd layer of pipe that's bigger than the original, and in between you can put some dampening material. this will make a 2 layer wall and the force that get drop down will soften quite a bit. you can do this with these bars because it does not need to be pull out to change weight, they move up and down inside the cage.

i'm unsure if the saber fills up the hole completely, if it doesn't you can use that method... but if it does you'll have to make a brand new bar and layer it up... however that would be hella costly, so you can just forget about it lol.

[keeko]

Hi everyone, I had this thought the other day while lusting over some out of reach Elite racks online. I've got an old powertec with the Sabre spotters but this would also apply to Powerline racks and any others with Sabre spotters as well.

Would encasing the one inch thick sabers with two inch ( or whagever diameter) thick steel pipes drastically increase their safety strength along the same way that Elite's & Texas Strength System's racks do with their 3/8" pin ( I think)in thicker pipes?

Would it give the same barbell sparing shock absorption properties I believe they both claim?

I'm thinking if this worked the limiting factor in safety strength would be the integrity of the rack holes? Maybe the shock absorption of the pipes would of benefit here as well?

I'm honestly curious and would appreciate input. I'm always looking for ways to sex up my regular joe equipment to higher levels.

This is a difficult question. I think your intuition is correct that the strength of the rack holes would be a central issue in the effectiveness of your proposal. Another issue would be exactly how/where the weight on the encasing pipes got distributed on the sabers. Given that the pipes would have some elasticity, one might suppose that the majority of the weight dropped on the pipes would end up being focused in the same place it would be without the pipes...just brainstorming here...

[Wildtim]

Since very very very few people ever get anywhere near the safe limit of any rack this is pretty well academic.

[clockwork247]

Since very very very few people ever get anywhere near the safe limit of any rack this is pretty well academic.

absolutely, my cheapo rack (and i'm already nice when i call it a cheapo rack), has a rating of 300 pounds... i'm sure it'll not break even if i put 600 on there, only reason I'm sure is because I already did to test it.

[Kodokan]

absolutely, my cheapo rack (and i'm already nice when i call it a cheapo rack), has a rating of 300 pounds... i'm sure it'll not break even if i put 600 on there, only reason I'm sure is because I already did to test it.

I once had a weider with a limit of 300. It had metal 2.5 inch tubing frame and somewhat cheap looking hooks/hollow bars....

I was also convinced it could withstand well above 300 in a realistic failed squat or bench. I'd have thought if you replaced the hooks and pins with something from nybb youl'd be good indefinitely...and you might be. I'd say probably would be but I honestly couldn't attest to that even though I think so. But if you can pay for something that takes that question out of your mind I think you will.

[clockwork247]

I once had a weider with a limit of 300. It had metal 2.5 inch tubing frame and somewhat cheap looking hooks/hollow bars....

I was also convinced it could withstand well above 300 in a realistic failed squat or bench. I'd have thought if you replaced the hooks and pins with something from nybb youl'd be good indefinitely...and you might be. I'd say probably would be but I honestly couldn't attest to that even though I think so. But if you can pay for something that takes that question out of your mind I think you will.

I've only put ~600 across the safety bar just to test it, my biggest lift is squat and I can only squat 200... and 100% of my fail is at the bottom (where I can't get it up), so for the most part the weight just drop slightly (less than 1-2") onto the safety. So just for now it's fine for me.

mine is also a weider, the 565 (that doesn't use a J hook), it uses a spin knob to adjust the bar, so the holes are really small (like 1/2 to 1/3 of an in hole).

I'll just use it till have some extra cash to get a better rack... honestly that rack might be the worst rated rack on the market, so many little thing that was designed wrong lol, but I really get a lot of use out of it.

[Iakovos]

there's only a few on here that's into the DIY stuff, most of these guys are into the "commercial" high grade equipment.

the problem with the sabre bar is that you have to pull it all the way out through the holes to change height, so you can't really add anything to the bar...

however with the j-hook or rotating lock bar, you can add a 2nd layer of pipe that's bigger than the original, and in between you can put some dampening material. this will make a 2 layer wall and the force that get drop down will soften quite a bit. you can do this with these bars because it does not need to be pull out to change weight, they move up and down inside the cage.

i'm unsure if the saber fills up the hole completely, if it doesn't you can use that method... but if it does you'll have to make a brand new bar and layer it up... however that would be hella costly, so you can just forget about it lol.

The way I was picturing it was to hold the two inch thick pipe inside the rack between the front and rear uprights. If, let's say, the rack has 24" between front and rear uprights then the pipe could be 22-23" long. Then you align the pipe to the inside of the front upright, insert the Sabre safety through the front upright, through the pipe, then through the rear upright before locking in place.

I think this is how Elite's racks and the Texas Strength Systems pin/pipe safeties work but I could be wrong.

[clockwork247]

The way I was picturing it was to hold the two inch thick pipe inside the rack between the front and rear uprights. If, let's say, the rack has 24" between front and rear uprights then the pipe could be 22-23" long. Then you align the pipe to the inside of the front upright, insert the Sabre safety through the front upright, through the pipe, then through the rear upright before locking in place.

I think this is how Elite's racks and the Texas Strength Systems pin/pipe safeties work but I could be wrong.

isn't that a little annoying every time you switch height? haha.

I don't know how texas strength rack work, i never see one in action (saw the clip of some dude lifting in side it), but never saw a clip of how it actually put together.

right now i'm just into racks with j hook type of safeties, those are easy/fast to move around.

[Iakovos]

This is a difficult question. I think your intuition is correct that the strength of the rack holes would be a central issue in the effectiveness of your proposal. Another issue would be exactly how/where the weight on the encasing pipes got distributed on the sabers. Given that the pipes would have some elasticity, one might suppose that the majority of the weight dropped on the pipes would end up being focused in the same place it would be without the pipes...just brainstorming here...

I had the same impression regarding the force distribution but if I understand the claims made for the pin/pipe safeties correctly, they are supposed to somehow dissipate some of the impact by transferring them to only the exposed ends if the pins (the parts uncovered by the pipe). If that's true then the strength needed to bend such a small length would be much greater because the longer a given length of metal is the easier it is to bend it, right?

The other thing is the pin/pipe setup is supposed to offer barbell-sparing shock absorption but I don't understand how that works.

[Iakovos]

Since very very very few people ever get anywhere near the safe limit of any rack this is pretty well academic.

I used to squat 620 for a single to depth. At the time I could handle 820 for five in partial squat. I was feeling pretty crappy at the time and I was diagnosed with an illness. Because of this and some family troubles I ended up taking time off from training (a big mistake) for a long while. Now I'm back into the swing of things, even though I'm still ill. I'm supposed to get surgery soon and they tell me it will make a world of difference. In the mean time im trying my best to fight through it.

So long story short I've resumed training and am aiming to catch up to and exceed my old bests. At that point I will probably by closing in on the safety limits, at least in some things.

Sorry for rambling, I don't want to derail the thread.

[Iakovos]

I've only put ~600 across the safety bar just to test it, my biggest lift is squat and I can only squat 200... and 100% of my fail is at the bottom (where I can't get it up), so for the most part the weight just drop slightly (less than 1-2") onto the safety. So just for now it's fine for me.

mine is also a weider, the 565 (that doesn't use a J hook), it uses a spin knob to adjust the bar, so the holes are really small (like 1/2 to 1/3 of an in hole).

I'll just use it till have some extra cash to get a better rack... honestly that rack might be the worst rated rack on the market, so many little thing that was designed wrong lol, but I really get a lot of use out of it.

Wow if all racks can handle sonething like double their (really, really conservative weight ratings?) then maybe the issue really is arbitrary.

[clockwork247]

Wow if all racks can handle sonething like double their (really, really conservative weight ratings?) then maybe the issue really is arbitrary.

that's not true, the "rating" is really depending on the manufacture's "idea" on how much risk they want to take.

2 same unit from different manufacture would have different capacity rating...

if a rack that claims 1000 pounds I wouldn't try to put 2000 on there, but if a rack claims 300, i'm ok with ~500 on there, it's just diminishing of return.

if a cheap bench has a 600 pounds rating, i'm sure a rack with thicker tubing and support itself every which way is gonna be at the very least in the same ball park.

I've had a 6' 5 pound hollow standard bar that takes 150 pounds like no body business (the max rated was 100 pounds I think). so i'm sure any rack out there with bigger tubing than 1" that re-enforce itself properly like a rack would take at the very least 300 .

[HardKore79]

If your lifts are as claimed, I would go fully commercial even though Powertec has a 1000lb rating. It will handle, but I just wouldn't feel secure at those weights. There's a reason you want to reinforce those bars. Use this reason to buy a better rack that you'll never have to worry about the sabers failing. To tell you the truth, sabers don't do it for me. I would rather have the square safeties or the pull-pin safeties on the Parabody.

[Skidmarx]

My rack has sabres and the only thing that bothers me is the sound of metal scraping when you slide them in/out.

If I ever get strong enough to break the rack(doubt it), then I'll consider myself worthy of a full commercial rack.

[Cleveland33]

If your lifts are as claimed, I would go fully commercial even though Powertec has a 1000lb rating. It will handle, but I just wouldn't feel secure at those weights. There's a reason you want to reinforce those bars. Use this reason to buy a better rack that you'll never have to worry about the sabers failing. To tell you the truth, sabers don't do it for me. I would rather have the square safeties or the pull-pin safeties on the Parabody.

Pull pins rule. I don't know how you could go to something else after having them. I'll have to ask Keet.

[Keetman]

Pull pins rule. I don't know how you could go to something else after having them. I'll have to ask Keet.

I do like the pull pin safeties, and this was a concern when I went from the Bodycraft to the EliteFTS cage. The box or quick safeties have worked out just fine, in fact, for versatility, I now prefer them. They may take a second longer to adjust, but the time difference is negligible....they're pretty fast. Having the ability to take the safeties out of the rack is nice though if you need it. You can work around this with the pull pins safeties, but I'm just saying there's nothing bad about the box safeties. I don't feel I've sacrificed anything.

I would never want to use sabers now if I didn't have to though. After having a cage with pop pins and now quick safeties....and used a couple that have the saber...I would never want to own anything but the former two types. (Sabers are fine....nobody needs to be offended by that, just saying if you have a choice, I'd go with the box or pull pin).

For anybody that's considering a rack that offer sabers standard and box/quick safeties as an option (I know elite does, not sure of anyone else)...I would strongly encourage you to upgrade if you can.

[Cleveland33]

I feel ya. To be honest, all the racks in my high school weight room (we had many - Keet if you ever get a chance to see Ignatius's weight room in Cleveland you'd love it) were the saber style - and to be honest, other than the noise, I liked them a lot. Never used the box safeties so I can't really compare.

All that - I can't really see me ever needing to upgrade from my Parabody. I am considering having some work done on it that would essentially make it perfect to me - have the bar rests that are welding on the inside of the front uprights removed, have holes drilled all the way top to bottom of the uprights, and have a second set of hooks fabbed for the front upright to put hooks on the outside of the rack (for shoulder presses).

[Keetman]

I feel ya. To be honest, all the racks in my high school weight room (we had many - Keet if you ever get a chance to see Ignatius's weight room in Cleveland you'd love it) were the saber style - and to be honest, other than the noise, I liked them a lot. Never used the box safeties so I can't really compare.

All that - I can't really see me ever needing to upgrade from my Parabody. I am considering having some work done on it that would essentially make it perfect to me - have the bar rests that are welding on the inside of the front uprights removed, have holes drilled all the way top to bottom of the uprights, and have a second set of hooks fabbed for the front upright to put hooks on the outside of the rack (for shoulder presses).

Hmmm... the only thing St Ignatius congers up in my head is pain....... I wrestled in Highschool and while I never was unfortunate enough to have to go against anyone from that school....they're known well for beating up on most of the state . I can only imagine what their weight room was like then, let alone now! Ironically, I had the opportunity to go into my highschool a couple of weeks ago. Very little is the same as they added on a lot in the last 5 years and have remodeled the original buildings. I was able to get up to the mezzanine (where we wrestled) and check out what is now their weight room. The entire mezzanine is now power racks, ghr's, and various other machines. I was pretty impressed with the upgrades because while its bigger than when I was there, its not all that big of a district (about 1100 students in highschool 22 years ago). I have some pics of the racks I'll post some time, I'd never heard of them.

Anyway, I don't blame you for not wanting to get rid of the parabody. I had one that I flipped a couple of years ago and I contemplated keeping it over the Bodycraft. I didn't see any reason to, in the end, because they are pretty much identical and I had the crossover attachment. The Parabody was very nice. After you modify it, you should be even happier. I will warn you not to say "never". I mean, I went out and bought the crossover attachment new at $500 for my Bodycraft rack and had zero intention of ever getting rid of it. Then one night I'm perusing ebay and BAM..... dream rack falls into my lap for a song. You just never know and if you upgrade, you wouldn't be giving up anything (I lost the crossover, but its a tiny little sacrifice in my opinion).

The box safeties simply work by twisting the entire box tube toward you, then pushing the entire tube toward the front until the pins come out of the holes, then lifting the tube to the desired height, and finally putting the pins back in the new holes and twisting it back into position. Simple design really, I'm glad to see Powertec incorporated it into their new design last year (or 2010, whenever it was).

[HardKore79]

Anyway, I don't blame you for not wanting to get rid of the parabody. I had one that I flipped a couple of years ago and I contemplated keeping it over the Bodycraft.

And I was the one that kept the older Parabody over the newer F430.

[Cleveland33]

Yea I've seen the box safeties, seem like a nice idea. I saw your boy over at Edge is willing to fabricate hooks, I was gonna email him to see if he could do a box j-hook for the Parabody. Now I'm wondering how hard it would be to make a jig for my press and drill the holes myself. The money that I would save could go to powder coating it.

Am I weird for wanting to DIY something that's not high end commercial grade? I know that's not real popular around here. ;-)

[Cleveland33]

I had the same impression regarding the force distribution but if I understand the claims made for the pin/pipe safeties correctly, they are supposed to somehow dissipate some of the impact by transferring them to only the exposed ends if the pins (the parts uncovered by the pipe). If that's true then the strength needed to bend such a small length would be much greater because the longer a given length of metal is the easier it is to bend it, right?

The other thing is the pin/pipe setup is supposed to offer barbell-sparing shock absorption but I don't understand how that works.

This is my understanding of how this will work. How it works, I am not positive. KBKB would likely know.

That said, I would start looking to upgrade your rack in consideration of your lifts.

[Keetman]

And I was the one that kept the older Parabody over the newer F430.

If you aren't going to get the crossover, these racks are pretty much a wash. I think aesthetically the Bodycraft may be a little nicer, but the Parabody offers external bar holders (actually I believe the new bodycraft cages do too) and the sides of the parabody are welded one piece construction....so it "may" be more stable. Other than that, I believe the only discernible difference is the Bodycraft puts those rubber protective pieces on the safeties and jhooks.

Without the crossover, the choice is going to be nothing more than a coin flip, imo and I don't believe one can go wrong either way. They are both fantastic home/residential cages.

Yea I've seen the box safeties, seem like a nice idea. I saw your boy over at Edge is willing to fabricate hooks, I was gonna email him to see if he could do a box j-hook for the Parabody. Now I'm wondering how hard it would be to make a jig for my press and drill the holes myself. The money that I would save could go to powder coating it.

Am I weird for wanting to DIY something that's not high end commercial grade? I know that's not real popular around here. ;-)

I don't know if you're weird and I don't know that DIY is necessarily unpopular....I think its just most of the time inefficient to some extent. I mean lots of people come on here wanting to build wooden cages.... I don't see the point. Not because they're not strong....(I'm sitting underneath a 16" wooden beam right now that probably weighs 1000lbs......and is holding a lot more than that....I really hope it isn't going to break in two any time too soon), but because its just not worth the time and effort. I'm not even a fan of the Powerline Cage, but for $300 (sometimes less) a person can have a steel cage sent to their door that will function just fine. To build a good wooden rack you're going to have to design it well, build it well, and you still have to buy the hardware. Its a personal decision....nothing wrong with anyone doing it, I just wouldn't want to.

If you're absolutely sure you LOVE your cage and wouldn't want to upgrade...ever....then do what you want to it. The cost isn't really a consideration because you are going to reap much more than dollars out of it. You're going to use it and you're going to like looking at it and enjoying how you've made it perfect. Its not any different than many hobbies, people pour thousands of dollars into their vehicles that they will never recoup.... but it makes them happy while they own it... perfect in my mind.

LoL.... I had this conversation with some of my real time friends a couple of years ago when I put my pool in. They thought I was crazy for spending what I did on it. Thing is.....several of them own $20,000 Harley Davidson motorcycles and one probably had at least as much money tied up in an early '70's Bronco project. Everybody has their thing..... I'd rather sit by my pool with my boys in the summer and go through some cold ones....... neither they nor myself is necessarily "right".

[Kodokan]

This is my understanding of how this will work. How it works, I am not positive. KBKB would likely know.

That said, I would start looking to upgrade your rack in consideration of your lifts.

I think I remember reading somewhere in the depths of EFS that the reason for the pipes was to provide a bigger surface area for the bars to land on...thus not bending your bars on a thin running pin. That you can pretty much understand in the same way a knife is sharper than a stick...maybe it also makes them stronger, but I somewhat doubt it.

[KBKB]

This is my understanding of how this will work. How it works, I am not positive. KBKB would likely know.

I don't know for certain, but I'll take a stab at it.

I would think that pins alone, especially if they're made of spring steel, would be more bar-friendly since more deflection will be allowed. (I.e. they'll bend more, reducing the impact force.)

However, the safeties are not there to protect the bar, but rather to protect the lifter. Putting pipe over the outside of the pin safeties will make the whole thing stiffer and, therefore, safer for the lifter.

[Kodokan]

I don't know for certain, but I'll take a stab at it.

I would think that pins alone, especially if they're made of spring steel, would be more bar-friendly since more deflection will be allowed. (I.e. they'll bend more, reducing the impact force.)

However, the safeties are not there to protect the bar, but rather to protect the lifter. Putting pipe over the outside of the pin safeties will make the whole thing stiffer and, therefore, safer for the lifter.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/co...power_rack.htm

I think this is what I was remembering, under the section 4. of that link:

Set 1. Rod and Pipe Safety Pins – These pins are what we have used at EFS since we started selling equipment. These safety pins are perfect for rack deadlifting and bench lockouts. The pipe fits over a rod and helps disperse the energy (and thus saving the bar) of dropping a bar onto the pins. These pins are the workhorses; they work well for spotting and for partial movements.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/si...your_gym-3.htm

Safety pins - This is another thing that I have never understood. I have seen two types of pins over the years. The "over kill" pin and the "under kill" pin. The over kill pin is the one that weighs about 100 pounds and is solid as a rock. It is not your average steel rod but rather a large steel beam that wedges into the rack. While this set up will never bend, we can't say the same about your bars! So much for that nice new squat bar you have. One missed lift and it is done, or better yet, a few sets of pin presses and you can say good by to your bench bar. The "under kill" set up is the small rod. Regardless of the rod used it will bend over time and you will find you are doing uneven extensions on your pin presses and uneven pulls on the pin pulls. Fortunately, there is a better way. It is called a rod and pin set up. This way the pipe absorbs the shock of the bar and saves the pin and your bars.

...although if something is going to get saved i'd hope it'd be the lifter.

[KBKB]

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/co...power_rack.htm

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/si...your_gym-3.htm

The sentences from the parts that you highlighted from both of those links are:

"The pipe fits over a rod and helps disperse the energy (and thus saving the bar) of dropping a bar onto the pins."

"This way the pipe absorbs the shock of the bar and saves the pin and your bars."

But they don't say how it is that the pipe disperses the energy or absorbs the shock. (Or, if they did, I missed it.)

It may be as you observed earlier about the pipe presenting more surface area to a dropped bar. Though I'm not sure how much this helps if the safety pin/pipe has no give to it at all.

Or it may be that the pipe itself deforms when a bar is dropped on it. If this is the case, I would guess that you'd need to replace the pipe after some number of hard drops. But that would still be cheaper than replacing the bar or the pins.

[Kodokan]

yeah i dunno...maybe the surface area being bigger is what I would guess.

[Iakovos]

If your lifts are as claimed, I would go fully commercial even though Powertec has a 1000lb rating. It will handle, but I just wouldn't feel secure at those weights. There's a reason you want to reinforce those bars. Use this reason to buy a better rack that you'll never have to worry about the sabers failing. To tell you the truth, sabers don't do it for me. I would rather have the square safeties or the pull-pin safeties on the Parabody.

I'd love to level up to a commercial rack but one of the terms of agreement with the family to put money into a home gym was that it was supposed to be a one time investment for life. After all these things don't sell for peanuts. All my research said the powertec was fantastic, and it is, I love it but I hadnt learned of the full commercial racks yet. So I can't buy another without breaking my word to my family.

The condition to that though is that I CAN get a new rack if this one "breaks" lol.

Anyway that's why I'm looking at souping up rather than trading up.

For extra safety I have a second pair of safety sabers that I could just place under the first pair. It won't prevent damage to first safeties or the rack but it should prevent damage to me :-)

When you say it'll hold but it wouldn't feel safe do you mean it's just a psychological concern? If its just a matter of feeling nervous but actually not being in danger I wouldn't have a problem with manning up.