Cost saving DAA+ erase stack!?

[Ooface]

The force is strong with this post.

dude at 19 year old and a weight of 150lbs you have a lot more to be concerned with then jacking with your test. You test levels are probably fine. Another thing to consider even though the bottle may say "21 years old" you typically dont need test booster until you are 25 or older. Chances are you can improve you test by eating a better diet, proper rest and good hard lifting. I dont care what people say, a 19 year old buying a test booster is a complete waste of money.

[gingersgym]

well i count macros extremely closely and make sure I have moderate high fats with all the essential fats so not sure what else...

sleep twice as much as anyone my age... 9-10 hours EVERY NIGHT

lift only compound lifts, maybe 3/4 iso's...

im not saying a test booster is going to do loads... but iv got it so couldnt hurt...

[gingersgym]

bumpbump

[gingersgym]

Okay to use the testforce up iv got then?

[Diesel0022]

Yea

[gingersgym]

should i get the erase to stack?

[Diesel0022]

If you want to. Personally I would run P5P and Mucuna with it, cheaper and just as effective.

[gingersgym]

If you want to. Personally I would run P5P and Mucuna with it, cheaper and just as effective.

I have seen this said before, but how do the two ingrediants work exactly? mucuna is for prolactin? (not sure why i would get that)

thanks

[Diesel0022]

Dopa inhibits prolactin, B6 works to lower it. Cause DAA raises prolactin

[surfeatliftsurf]

No, it will do something.

Studies showing IIRC a 42% increase in Test.

Erase would control estrogen allowing more test to be created. So it would increase his test levels, but increase in test doesnt always mean an increase in LBM..

So it would indeed do something.

I do agree that you need to eat, eat, eat to put on weight.

Oh, so that's a 100% guarantee across the board for all DAA users? I didn't realize that study had such successful results, I thought that was one user that had up to a 40% increase after a pre-existing low T level.

I swear to god, some people will use any study as an excuse to spend money. OP, use whatever you want...be aware that myself as well as MANY other people have used DAA and had almost no benefit from it. Natty test boosters have a place in a rigorous competition supplement stack if you're preparing for a show, but I believe based on my experience and many other peoples anecdotal reviews that this stack won't do sh!t all for you.

The comment about prolactin increase is unfounded. Someone post 1 set of blood work that shows increased prolactin, you'll earn reps for life from me while you and your friends neg me into the red (srs). 1 person shows 1 blood test from a DAA user with high prolactin, I'll f*cking PM every mod and have them neg me into the irreversible red. That evidence just doesn't exist...

[surfeatliftsurf]

Dopa inhibits prolactin, B6 works to lower it. Cause DAA raises prolactin

The below post is stolen from a PES rep off another forum, but I did some research and the study he cites is accurate.

You should not be using B6 with L-Dopa if you want L-Dopa to take on its full effects.

L-Dopa converts to Dopamine. Dopamine cannot cross the blood brain barrier. If you arent increasing brain dopamine levels, how are you doing anything for hormone release?

So, you want the conversion of L-Dopa to Dopamine to occur in the brain, NOT outside of the brain. When you combine B6 with L-Dopa it does in fact enhance this conversion, but it makes more of it happen OUTSIDE of the brain, not inside. So B6 makes L-Dopa less effective for bodybuilding purposes.

Inhibition of l-Dopa-Induced Growth Hormone Stimulation by Pyridoxine and Chlorpromazine

Abstract

One gram of l-dopa was administered orally to 12 male control subjects and induced an increase of growth hormone (GH) secretion. The l-dopa-induced GH response was inhibited by an intravenous infusion of pyridoxine, but pyridoxine did not inhibit the GH response to hypoglycemia. Chlorpromazine also inhibited l-dopa-induced GH stimulation. Glucose concentrations were unaffected by l-dopa, chlorpromazine, and pyridoxine administration in these subjects. The mechanism of the suppressed l-dopa-induced GH response by pyridoxine appears to be mediated by peripheral acceleration of the conversion of l-dopa to dopamine, while that of chlorpromazine appears to be mediated through hypothalamic centers. Pyridoxine and chlorpromazine should be added to the list of other factors affecting the response to L-dopa-induced GH stimulation.




Failure of vitamin B6 to reverse the l-dopa effect in patients on a dopa decarboxylase inhibitor

Abstract

Seven patients with Parkinsonism previously on l-dopa were placed on a regimen of l-dopa and alpha methyl dopa hydrazine (a dopa decarboxylase inhibitor). Two of these patients had previously shown marked clinical deterioration of the l-dopa improvement when given pyridoxine. None of the seven patients receiving alpha methyl dopa hydrazine demonstrated any change in their condition when given pyridoxine. The failure of vitamin B6 to reverse the clinical effect of l-dopa in patients receiving both l-dopa and a peripheral dopa decarboxylase inhibitor suggests that reversal of the l-dopa effect induced by vitamin B6 is due to increasing the activity of the enzyme dopa decarboxylase outside the central nervous system.




ON THE MECHANISM OF THE NULLIFICATION OF CNS EFFECTS OF l-DOPA BY PYRIDOXINE IN PARKINSONIAN PATIENTS


Abstract

Administration of either Levodopa (l-DOPA) or pyridoxine increased the concentration of dopamine in the basal ganglia of rats. However, administration of pyridoxine to rats pretreated with l-DOPA for several days resulted in a reversal of the l-DOPA-induced elevation of dopamine. Pretreatment of rats with Ro 4-4602 (an inhibitor of peripheral aromatic amino acid decarboxylases) enhanced the l-DOPA-induced rise in the CNS level of dopamine. This effect was also reduced substantially after the administration of pyridoxine. We interpret these results to indicate that the antagonistic effect of pyridoxine on the beneficial effects of l-DOPA in the CNS is centrally mediated as a result of decreased formation of dopamine.

[Diesel0022]

Dopamine is the prolactin inhibiting factor. B6 reduces prolactin levels through stimulation of dopamine production.

In this case, more is better.

[vegravelsesnatt]

Dopamine is the prolactin inhibiting factor. B6 reduces prolactin levels through stimulation of dopamine production.

In this case, more is better.

L-dopa (mucuna) and b6 taken together is a bad idea.

[gingersgym]

if only i had the time to understand what your going on about...

Ill stick to erase haha...

what possible oestrogen effects would you get running it solo? or nothing...?

[Diesel0022]

Ohhhh boy

1. Your studies state Pyridoxine. I stated P5P.
2. This isnt for BB'ing reasons, this is for Prolactin Suppression.
3. Awaiting valid studies

[Daycrawler]

Lol. So you rip on me for saying that its a "guarantee",which I clearly didn't, and follow it up with saying that since you and "many" others didnt see much from it that it won't work for him... Now thats one strong guarantee...

I haven't looked at the study in awhile, but the OP said he had lower end of normal test levels so perhaps he will experience similar results to the 40% increase since you said the study participant had lower test.

It's also possible you were expecting too much from the product as well. I already said an increase in test does not mean an increase in LBM...

As for knocking all natty test boosters, I have bloodwork showing a free test increase from 95 to 154.1 in 36 days while on T-Force... So yeah, they do work.

Oh, so that's a 100% guarantee across the board for all DAA users? I didn't realize that study had such successful results, I thought that was one user that had up to a 40% increase after a pre-existing low T level.

I swear to god, some people will use any study as an excuse to spend money. OP, use whatever you want...be aware that myself as well as MANY other people have used DAA and had almost no benefit from it. Natty test boosters have a place in a rigorous competition supplement stack if you're preparing for a show, but I believe based on my experience and many other peoples anecdotal reviews that this stack won't do sh!t all for you.

The comment about prolactin increase is unfounded. Someone post 1 set of blood work that shows increased prolactin, you'll earn reps for life from me while you and your friends neg me into the red (srs). 1 person shows 1 blood test from a DAA user with high prolactin, I'll f*cking PM every mod and have them neg me into the irreversible red. That evidence just doesn't exist...

[surfeatliftsurf]

Ohhhh boy

1. Your studies state Pyridoxine. I stated P5P.
2. This isnt for BB'ing reasons, this is for Prolactin Suppression.
3. Awaiting valid studies

Guess what pyridoxine is...B6. Guess what P5P is...B6.

Prolactin suppressing effects from B6 and L-Dopa are only going to happen if L-Dopa converts to Dopamine INSIDE the blood to brain barrier. Dopamine will not cross the BB Barrier. You can wait all you want, those studies are valid. If you just want to regurgitate a bunch of bro-science on here to sound smart, go at it. If you want to really create a synergistic effect that will have legitimate hormonal effects on the body, then you should rethink your strategy. I'm not really sure how you're even arguing with what I'm posting seeing as you haven't stepped to the plate with any real science or research...

[Daycrawler]

if only i had the time to understand what your going on about...

Ill stick to erase haha...

what possible oestrogen effects would you get running it solo? or nothing...?

Im running Erase @ 125mg daily at the moment, joint discomfort is minor. I'm enjoying it alot. Many users cant use above 75mg cause of Joint pain....

[vegravelsesnatt]

Ohhhh boy

1. Your studies state Pyridoxine. I stated P5P.
2. This isnt for BB'ing reasons, this is for Prolactin Suppression.
3. Awaiting valid studies

chill bro, im just chiming in to the studies i saw posted. It makes sense to me, lol.

Administration of either Levodopa (l-DOPA) or pyridoxine increased the concentration of dopamine in the basal ganglia of rats. However, administration of pyridoxine to rats pretreated with l-DOPA for several days resulted in a reversal of the l-DOPA-induced elevation of dopamine. Pretreatment of rats with Ro 4-4602 (an inhibitor of peripheral aromatic amino acid decarboxylases) enhanced the l-DOPA-induced rise in the CNS level of dopamine. This effect was also reduced substantially after the administration of pyridoxine. We interpret these results to indicate that the antagonistic effect of pyridoxine on the beneficial effects of l-DOPA in the CNS is centrally mediated as a result of decreased formation of dopamine.

Dopamine and Prolactin have an inverse relationship. P5P is pyridoxine-5-phosphate, the biologically active form of pyridoxine. That study shows exactly what surf bro said.

[surfeatliftsurf]

Lol. So you rip on me for saying that its a "guarantee",which I clearly didn't, and follow it up with saying that since you and "many" others didnt see much from it that it won't work for him... Now thats one strong guarantee...

I haven't looked at the study in awhile, but the OP said he had lower end of normal test levels so perhaps he will experience similar results to the 40% increase since you said the study participant had lower test.

It's also possible you were expecting too much from the product as well. I already said an increase in test does not mean an increase in LBM...

As for knocking all natty test boosters, I have bloodwork showing a free test increase from 95 to 154.1 in 36 days while on T-Force... So yeah, they do work.

My before and after bloods showed a 200ng/dL decrease in total testosterone. I wasn't expecting sh!t and that's exactly what I got. Just because you "boost" testosterone doesn't mean it will have any kind of anabolic effect. These products should be saved for a PCT situation where you need the boost to recover from HPTA suppression OR for a pre-contest boost if you're in a severe cut.

[surfeatliftsurf]

what possible oestrogen effects would you get running it solo? or nothing...?

4 weeks of DAA @ 3g daily my Estradiol levels were almost exactly the same both before and after. There was no significant change, and during that time I did not use any kind of aromatase inhibitor or SERM.

[Daycrawler]

My before and after bloods showed a 200ng/dL decrease in total testosterone. I wasn't expecting sh!t and that's exactly what I got. Just because you "boost" testosterone doesn't mean it will have any kind of anabolic effect. These products should be saved for a PCT situation where you need the boost to recover from HPTA suppression OR for a pre-contest boost if you're in a severe cut.

DAA is a great PCT option. I also said TWICE now that a boost in test, does not mean you'll experience lean muscle gain. Diet/Exercise are the key there.

However, this is the first i've seen of a decrease in Test.

If I may ask, what was your dosing like? 3g daily? How long did you run it for? What was your diet like, and lastly, what other supplements were you taking along side the DAA? Also, what brand...

[surfeatliftsurf]

If I may ask, what was your dosing like? 3g daily? How long did you run it for? What was your diet like, and lastly, what other supplements were you taking along side the DAA? Also, what brand...

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post782866753

[Daycrawler]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post782866753

Thanks, I looked. Maybe I missed it, what brand of DAA were you using?

I'm also curious what you had run 2 months prior.... Any ArA, pHs, etc.?

[surfeatliftsurf]

Thanks, I looked. Maybe I missed it, what brand of DAA were you using?

I'm also curious what you had run 2 months prior.... Any ArA, pHs, etc.?

Nothing hormonal, ever. Totally natty. DAA was from SmartPowders.

[Diesel0022]

If P5P crosses blood brain barrier and so does L-Dopa shouldn't it enhance dopamine formation on both sides?

[Daycrawler]

Nothing hormonal, ever. Totally natty. DAA was from SmartPowders.

Okay. You were eating 25g carbs a day?

[JohnSmeton]

dude at 19 year old and a weight of 150lbs you have a lot more to be concerned with then jacking with your test. You test levels are probably fine. Another thing to consider even though the bottle may say "21 years old" you typically dont need test booster until you are 25 or older. Chances are you can improve you test by eating a better diet, proper rest and good hard lifting. I dont care what people say, a 19 year old buying a test booster is a complete waste of money.

The force is strong with this post.

lol agreed. hansolos post is the most logical, sequential thing you can do right now.

and for those that want DAA powder AI sports has 20 % off all Ai sports products at bodybuilding.com, including DAA. Its a real good deal 300 grams for 24.00 plus 20 % off!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ai...rtic-acid.html

[surfeatliftsurf]

If P5P crosses blood brain barrier and so does L-Dopa shouldn't it enhance dopamine formation on both sides?

Yes, but, it also increases Dopamine conversion OUTSIDE the BBB by a much larger amount (more blood outside the brain than inside) so the net effect is negative. That's why you want an L-Dopa source that includes a decarboxylase inhibitor. Bulk 1-Carboxy from USP has that, and is a much more concentrated source of L-Dopa than just straight Mucuna. Decarboxylase inhibitors prevent excess conversion within the body...

Okay. You were eating 25g carbs a day?

Yeah, I was doing a keto diet @ about 400-500 less than maintenance. I added carbs back in towards the end and dropped some of the fat down to even out my calories. Even accounting for a cut, that's not THAT huge a deficit where I should have seen my hormones tank. Add in the fact that I was taking a hormone booster, and the results were (in my opinion) negligible. I understand that each blood test is just a snapshot and that total levels fluctuate greatly, but I was expecting the same or a higher number after a month on DAA and it simply did not deliver. There are a lot of people to jump on the DAA bandwagon, but not a lot of people putting up legit, methodically documented logs like mine that include before/after bloods.

[gingersgym]

so im set to run

week 1-8 tf2
week 3-8 erase 50mg per day (2 caps)

my diet is fine for achieving good test levels