whats wrong with using leverage gym equipment?

[abhishek77]

why is there so much negativity against leverage systems? I feel they are quite effective as well as safer. And they work similar to as working out with free weights. Although alot of guys will say that it movement is fixed/mechanical. Why do ppl find this an issue as long as it works out all the muscles involved? Eg.leverage chest press will workout chest and triceps.

Even professionals work out on leverage systems and yet some of them criticise them. And whats the main difference in mechanics if any between a leverage system manufactured by body-solid and a plate loading system manufactured by hammerstrength or life fitness?

I am planning to buy one of these this year.
http://www.fitness-superstore.co.uk/...1/13500_p.html

[Roidmonster55]

I don't see a problem with leverage other than the fact that simple physical science says leverage makes work easier. You have to use extra weight to get a proper workout with leverage. But then again, the same principle applies to pullies/cables. Can you think of a few pros that use pulley machines? I don't know why people would knock it.

The only other thing I can think of is that some leverage machines may have an awkward "swinging" type range of motion, like on the chest press- you're not pushing in a straight up-and-down motion, more like an arched half-circle of a movement.

[Vermonter]

When using free weights and having to stabilize the weight and control the path of movement yourself, your body works harder and you learn proper form. You might be able to get just as much muscle fatigue on the main movers by using other source of resistance (such as a leverage system), but you are also capable of letting your technique slack. Naturally, when working more stabilizer muscles you stimulate growth and strength increases in a less focused area, and since nearly all movements incorporate muscles working in tandem you don't want imbalances with those stabilizers going unused.
Whether this is or isn't an issue is mostly a matter of experience and what your total fitness program is. You answered a lot of your questions right in your post. Ultimately, you need to take care of yourself and make your own decisions. If you get results, who is going to complain?
The point is what most consistently gets results with the lowest risk of injuries is proper form with free weights.
Having said that, I have a Smith Machine (in addition to my power rack) and will use it periodically for particularly heavy lifts. I also use dumbbells constantly, so it is really all about covering the bases and making sure you aren't compromising your joints or letting the peripheral muscles atrophy from being unused.

[sherman]

I'd say that a main problem with that piece is the rigid connection between the left and right sides. There is no way to make sure that the load is equally distributed to each arm. One arm can do more work than the other without you feeling it. If you have strong side and a weak side , you want the weak side to catch up with the strong side,

With a free bar, or independent levers for each side on a leverage machine, this won't happen.

[thedickus]

why is there so much negativity against leverage systems? I feel they are quite effective as well as safer. And they work similar to as working out with free weights. Although alot of guys will say that it movement is fixed/mechanical. Why do ppl find this an issue as long as it works out all the muscles involved? Eg.leverage chest press will workout chest and triceps.

Even professionals work out on leverage systems and yet some of them criticise them. And whats the main difference in mechanics if any between a leverage system manufactured by body-solid and a plate loading system manufactured by hammerstrength or life fitness?

I am planning to buy one of these this year.
http://www.fitness-superstore.co.uk/...1/13500_p.html

The negativity is from people who probably have never used them before and have no idea what bodybuilding is about. Good commercial gyms are full of leverage machines as well as plate loaded machines, and free weights. If you workout in a rep range conducive to stimulating hypertrophy then your muscles will grow. Your body doesn't really care where the resistance comes from. Leverage machines, like smith machines, and cables, and even hydraulics are a good for stimulating muscular growth, as are dumbbells and barbells, and kettlebells, etc.
However it's not really fair to try to compare a PowerTec leverage machine with a commercially built Hammer Strength machine. PowerTec is good, but Hammer Strength is far superior. For one thing many of the Hammer Strength pieces actually allow your hands to converge during the contraction. The PowerTec, especially the unit you're looking at, works the lifts with your hands in a fixed position. There's nothing wrong with PowerTec equipment I own or have owned several pieces, I currently have their Lever Gym, Smith Machine (although their Smith sucks), Power Rack, and Utility Bench. I've also owned their leverage lat pulldown (I loved it and wish I still had room for it), their Leverage Squat/Calf machine, and their Compact Leg Sled. All were good functional pieces.

[ironwill2008]

why is there so much negativity against leverage systems?

Not sure what "negativity" you're talking about. Leverage system equipment doesn't cause gravity to disappear; you still have to work to move weight. If you work consistently to progress the weight and/or reps you can lift, you'll make gains.

Free weights, machines, cables, Atlas stones, sleds, etc. etc., all have their place. Use whatever you feel will help you move towards your goal. As long as progression is evident, you'll move forward.

[Keetman]

Not sure what "negativity" you're talking about. Leverage system equipment doesn't cause gravity to disappear; you still have to work to move weight. If you work consistently to progress the weight and/or reps you can lift, you'll make gains.

Free weights, machines, cables, Atlas stones, sleds, etc. etc., all have their place. Use whatever you feel will help you move towards your goal. As long as progression is evident, you'll move forward.

This.

Just because a person prefers one device, doesn't mean they "hate" another. I've taken a lot of heat for being a smith machine hater... I am not. I understand the difference and why those that like them do. I've also owned two. It just isn't for me and I believe for all around lifting, the cage and free weights are a better fit for most people. For those that understand the differences and want to use machines of any sort... then I'd say knock yourself out. People get their feelings hurt on here because everyone doesn't gush over their favorite thing.... like I said though... interest in one thing doesn't translate into hate for another.

The best equipment is the equipment that is used properly and doesn't acquire dust. Good luck.

[Kodokan]

nothing man. cost-wise it's fairly expensive and space wise it's too big for me, but if i had the space i'd not frown for a sec to have a leverage piece of some kind. the huge love for the home-gym/garage power rack is all about safety for minimal space, minimal investment.

if you're a nut you'll likely start seeing all kinds of commercial leverage pieces going used for around 400 a piece, and seriously i'd love to have some if i only had the space.

[supmannn]

You like them because they're easier. They're easier because they're not as effective.

That and they cost tons and takes up lots of space.

[Skidmarx]

nothing man. cost-wise it's fairly expensive and space wise it's too big for me, but if i had the space i'd not frown for a sec to have a leverage piece of some kind. the huge love for the home-gym/garage power rack is all about safety for minimal space, minimal investment.

if you're a nut you'll likely start seeing all kinds of commercial leverage pieces going used for around 400 a piece, and seriously i'd love to have some if i only had the space.

this ^^^

I used to have a garage full of machines but that didn't work out. I need a garage for other stuff too.

[twodog]

Machines have their place, and they isolate muscles which is great for BB. Free weights are better for overall strength and coordination, and exercises are generally of the compound type, meaning that you are using other muscles as well as the ones the exercise is intended for. If I had the room, I'd have a whole bunch of machines to go with my free weight system, but if I can only have one I'll stick with my barbell ).

One caveat, machines (especially leverage) are designed for the average physique. So if you are shorter than 5'6" or taller than 6'2" you will probably be at a less than ideal leverage point for the piece that you are using. This is the reason some people hate certain machines and others love them, simply because the machine fits their structure and works, or doesn't fit their structure and doesn't work.

[abhishek77]

Machines have their place, and they isolate muscles which is great for BB.

Not all machines isolate muscles mainly if you are doing a compund movement on the machine. Personally i do prefer machines than free weights since they are alot safer and can be done without a spotter. I work out on my own at the gym.

[donforeman]

why is there so much negativity against leverage systems? I feel they are quite effective as well as safer. And they work similar to as working out with free weights. Although alot of guys will say that it movement is fixed/mechanical. Why do ppl find this an issue as long as it works out all the muscles involved? Eg.leverage chest press will workout chest and triceps.

Even professionals work out on leverage systems and yet some of them criticise them. And whats the main difference in mechanics if any between a leverage system manufactured by body-solid and a plate loading system manufactured by hammerstrength or life fitness?

I am planning to buy one of these this year.
http://www.fitness-superstore.co.uk/...1/13500_p.html

Not all machines isolate muscles mainly if you are doing a compund movement on the machine. Personally i do prefer machines than free weights since they are alot safer and can be done without a spotter. I work out on my own at the gym.

I may be mistaken (wouldn't be the first time) but from the first and last post you made... it really sounds like your weren't wanting peoples advice at all - unless it agreed with what you had already decided?

I had a powertec gym and it was sold after about three months. I will list my reasons so you can consider them or not the choice is yours 1) Powertec leverage gyms are nothing like the higher end leverage systems. The squat felt really strange after a while the other movements were so so. 2) The advantage of switching out exercises often for muscle growth is something your not looking at. With a rack, a barbell and even plate loaded dumbbells your taking up less space and you have hundreds of variations to keep muscles guessing. There is a video from Rics corner on you tube with Roby Robinson talking about guys who do the same exercises month after month, but then complain they never grow after a certain point. The advice listed above suggesting a rack really is worth reconsidering. Its one thing to use hi end leverage systems as part of a complex and varied routine in a gym. Its another to limit yourself so drastically with a lower end system at home with no space or equipment to switch things up. At least that's my conclusion, others opinions may differ!

[HealthNutMD]

You like them because they're easier. They're easier because they're not as effective.

That and they cost tons and takes up lots of space.

Ideally you use free weights first, followed by the best machines to finish up, or for variety. The best designed machines are merely another tool to use. IMO, the more tools, the better. I spent my time figuring out which were the best machines to complement free weights. Disagree on implication that machines are less effective. In my opinion they are meant to complement or supplement free weights.

Space and cost are different issue.

[HealthNutMD]

One caveat, machines (especially leverage) are designed for the average physique. So if you are shorter than 5'6" or taller than 6'2" you will probably be at a less than ideal leverage point for the piece that you are using. This is the reason some people hate certain machines and others love them, simply because the machine fits their structure and works, or doesn't fit their structure and doesn't work.

Great summary... For instance, I was talking to a local strength coach about the reverse hyper by louis simmons. He has tall basketball players and really wanted to be able to raise and lower the platform (not just tilt). But it is expensive to add that feature, so a lot of companies don't spend the extra money. Its always great when a company spends a lot of time, effort, and money on machines--its far and few between these days. Gotta love companies like Strive, Atlantis, Nebula, UCS Spirit, Sorinex, Rogers Athltic, and companies who are also willing to customise machines. A lot of my machines were customised, and the additional expense was really not all that much... many times only 100.00-200.00 more to have some major modifications.

By the wy, if I had it over, I would have gotten the tiltable reverse hyper... it gives more adjustability and in essense some height adjustment, although being able to raise or lower the platform should have been an option.

[otiskii]

One caveat, machines (especially leverage) are designed for the average physique. So if you are shorter than 5'6" or taller than 6'2" you will probably be at a less than ideal leverage point for the piece that you are using. This is the reason some people hate certain machines and others love them, simply because the machine fits their structure and works, or doesn't fit their structure and doesn't work.

Bam! Exactly. I've used a good few machines in my life. Some fit great, some ok, and some made me feel like I was riding a bull (and, yes, I do know what riding a bull feels like). Those that didn't fit me and had me moving out of position to complete a move. Every device can have it's place. I prefer a rack and a barbell but I just like to lift stuff. I'm not BBing or PLing or anything like like that. But I'm old enough to know that the equipment that you will consistenly use is the right equipment for you. The equipment you won't use needs to be able to hang clothes on to be useful.

[BKMom]

I may be mistaken (wouldn't be the first time) but from the first and last post you made... it really sounds like your weren't wanting peoples advice at all - unless it agreed with what you had already decided?

I had a powertec gym and it was sold after about three months. I will list my reasons so you can consider them or not the choice is yours 1) Powertec leverage gyms are nothing like the higher end leverage systems. The squat felt really strange after a while the other movements were so so. 2) The advantage of switching out exercises often for muscle growth is something your not looking at. With a rack, a barbell and even plate loaded dumbbells your taking up less space and you have hundreds of variations to keep muscles guessing. There is a video from Rics corner on you tube with Roby Robinson talking about guys who do the same exercises month after month, but then complain they never grow after a certain point. The advice listed above suggesting a rack really is worth reconsidering. Its one thing to use hi end leverage systems as part of a complex and varied routine in a gym. Its another to limit yourself so drastically with a lower end system at home with no space or equipment to switch things up. At least that's my conclusion, others opinions may differ!

Donforeman....I have a question for you...let me first say that I, nor anyone in my family is a body builder (but we do lift weights at the gym - just not super serious about it). I want to purchase a Home Gym - mainly for my 14 year old son. He plays football, basketball & baseball - with baseball being his preferred sport. He really enjoys lifting weights with football but got discouraged because he couldn't lift during the season - he said he felt weak. (I understand why). So we thought we would get him a home gym to help him work out some. But I didn't want to do free weights and a bar and everything because we can't always be there to spot him. So, naturally, the leverage system looks great to me.... Would a leverage system help him build or maintain strength in between his free weight workouts with football? Or is there something else that would be just as good and maybe not as expensive? The two main things that appeal to me with the Powertec system is 1) He wouldn't need a spotter 2) It looks like the equipment would last a lifetime. I appreciate any feedback you could give me. I apologize if I've posted this question in the wrong place.

BKMom

[rlundregan]

Donforeman....I have a question for you...let me first say that I, nor anyone in my family is a body builder (but we do lift weights at the gym - just not super serious about it). I want to purchase a Home Gym - mainly for my 14 year old son. He plays football, basketball & baseball - with baseball being his preferred sport. He really enjoys lifting weights with football but got discouraged because he couldn't lift during the season - he said he felt weak. (I understand why). So we thought we would get him a home gym to help him work out some. But I didn't want to do free weights and a bar and everything because we can't always be there to spot him. So, naturally, the leverage system looks great to me.... Would a leverage system help him build or maintain strength in between his free weight workouts with football? Or is there something else that would be just as good and maybe not as expensive? The two main things that appeal to me with the Powertec system is 1) He wouldn't need a spotter 2) It looks like the equipment would last a lifetime. I appreciate any feedback you could give me. I apologize if I've posted this question in the wrong place.

BKMom

I haven't seen DonForeman around for a while, so I'll step in, and maybe a few other guys will as well. Leverage gym systems are OK, if you have the space for them. You might take a look at a power rack. It will take a lot less space, and eliminates the need for a spotter. It takes less space, and still uses a bar and weights (buy Olympic), so it offers more versatility. Typically, the people here in the Equipment Forum almost unanimously recommend that folks start out with a power rack, a decent bench, and a 300 lb Olympic set. There are a few stickies that you should check out--the Equipment Forum FAQ and the Power Rack thread. THey have tons of great information.

If you search Craigslist, you can often find rack/bench/weights for around $500 total.

EDIT: Check this stickie first:http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113942001

[Detrus]

A power rack. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113942001

[HealthNutMD]

I don't see a problem with leverage other than the fact that simple physical science says leverage makes work easier. You have to use extra weight to get a proper workout with leverage. But then again, the same principle applies to pullies/cables. Can you think of a few pros that use pulley machines? I don't know why people would knock it.

The only other thing I can think of is that some leverage machines may have an awkward "swinging" type range of motion, like on the chest press- you're not pushing in a straight up-and-down motion, more like an arched half-circle of a movement.

This is a good post... this is why people must know about the different cost no object leverage machines on the market.

In fact, you bring up a great point about arc of motion in leverage machines... This is is often not an issue, but requires very well thought out placement of the pivot point/pillow block bearings. Also, the longer the lever arm, the less of an arc path (more straight). Good example: The leverage arms on the POWER-LIFT Pro Plate load shoulder are significantly longer than the Hammer Plate load shoulder. Power Lift specifically engineered their shoulder machine with much longer lever arms (The Power-Lift engineer used to be on the Hammer Strength design team). There are huge differences in machines on the market, hence the existence of the Cost no Object thread in this forum.

Motion path is critical, and is a huge factor in proper biomechanics, something that is critically evaluated in the cost no object thread.

[twodog]

While the leverage system seems ideal, it's just that... a leverage system. The downside is that they are designed for optimum sizes and one size just doesn't fit all. If going for one, make sure all of the movements are comfortable.

The other thing is that leverage systems don't allow a free range of motion, which is really beneficial for a baseball player.

I, also, would recommend a power rack, along with a bench and 300 lb. Olympic set. Good luck on your choice.

[HealthNutMD]

While the leverage system seems ideal, it's just that... a leverage system. The downside is that they are designed for optimum sizes and one size just doesn't fit all. If going for one, make sure all of the movements are comfortable.

The other thing is that leverage systems don't allow a free range of motion

Some machines, like leg presses can accommodate all users from 4' 6" to 7'0" without change in biomechanics. But yes, there are many machines that do have a sweet spot, usually around 5' 10" (and as you mention earlier) and become suboptimal the further you get away from that sweet spot. Agreed that many leverage machines can only be optimized for a specific height, however this is still a machine by machine basis. Many of the best machines are able to provide enough adjustment to overcome the shortcomings of fixed length of leverage arms; some even being able to adjust the length of the lever arms themselves, or adjust the pivot point. If you provide enough adjustments, the sweet spot can be changeable. Certainly this is a critical factor in evaluating cost no object machines. Again, it is a machine by machine basis... there is a huge variability in machines.

The answer for me is always going to be a combination of the best free weights and best machines. They compliment each other very well. The key is to explore all of the machines on the market, the reward is well worth it.

[twodog]

Some machines, like leg presses can accommodate all users from 4' 6" to 7'0" without change in biomechanics. But yes, there are many machines that do have a sweet spot, usually around 5' 10" (and as you mention earlier) and become suboptimal the further you get away from that sweet spot. Agreed that many leverage machines can only be optimized for a specific height, however this is still a machine by machine basis. Many of the best machines are able to provide enough adjustment to overcome the shortcomings of fixed length of leverage arms; some even being able to adjust the length of the lever arms themselves, or adjust the pivot point. If you provide enough adjustments, the sweet spot can be changeable. Certainly this is a critical factor in evaluating cost no object machines. Again, it is a machine by machine basis... there is a huge variability in machines.

The answer for me is always going to be a combination of the best free weights and best machines. They compliment each other very well. The key is to explore all of the machines on the market, the reward is well worth it.

I agree with you, HNMD, about machines, especially ones of better quality. But she's asking about leverage machines of the Powertec variety, for home use. I have personally found those to not fit me well, and I'm 5'8".

If I had the money, and more importantly the room, I would be using a lot of machines in my home gym, lol. Limited room for me, means limited equipment, and freeweights have always worked best for me in that situation.

This probably should have been it's own thread BKMom.

[HealthNutMD]

If I had the money, and more importantly the room, I would be using a lot of machines in my home gym, lol. Limited room for me, means limited equipment, and freeweights have always worked best for me in that situation.

Given that limitation in room size, etc... yes, better just to get the best power rack, best free weights. No doubt about it given that situation. Another point is that multifunctional machines suck, again reinforcing that unless you are willing to go all out on machines, and have the room, its best to go after the best free weights possible

[BKMom]

Thanks, rlundregan! I've just begun my search and I don't know much about Power Racks. I hope I don't sound silly - but is that the same as a Smith Machine? Also, can you work out your legs on a power rack?

[HealthNutMD]

Thanks, rlundregan! I've just begun my search and I don't know much about Power Racks. I hope I don't sound silly - but is that the same as a Smith Machine? Also, can you work out your legs on a power rack?

No. A smith machine is a multifunctional machine.

For working out legs, a power rack enables a person to do squats safely. You need a power rack, a bench, dumbbells, a few bars or so, bumpers (plates). Hamstrings also get worked by free-weights by doing exercises such as deadlifts.

If I were you I would by the Nebula bench with the decline attachment-- one bench can do it all, and in my opinion is the best bench that can do all functions outstanding: incline, flat, and decline. The best version is made by Rae Crowthers. 1084 bench if I have not forgotten the model number. I own one.

I also cannot recommend Rae Crowthers enough for racks.

But yes, if going for max savings, you can't beat craigslist used: you still need the patience to get the correct items... don;t just get something cheap and because it is available. If buying used, take your time... be patient for the best item to appear on craigslist.

[rlundregan]

No. A smith machine is a multifunctional machine.

For working out legs, a power rack enables a person to do squats safely. You need a power rack, a bench, dumbbells, a few bars or so, bumpers (plates). Hamstrings also get worked by free-weights by doing exercises such as deadlifts.

If I were you I would by the Nebula bench with the decline attachment-- one bench can do it all, and in my opinion is the best bench that can do all functions outstanding: incline, flat, and decline. The best version is made by Rae Crowthers. 1084 bench if I have not forgotten the model number. I own one.

I also cannot recommend Rae Crowthers enough for racks.

But yes, if going for max savings, you can't beat craigslist used: you still need the patience to get the correct items... don;t just get something cheap and because it is available. If buying used, take your time... be patient for the best item to appear on craigslist.

I get the impression that BKMom is the mother of a teenager. In my mind, that means she likely has a budget to work with, space limitations, and that nagging concern that he might not stick with this. Mom, forgive me if I am off base here. I would be looking at Body Solid, Parabody, or Powertec level rack/bench, and whatever Frankenset she can find for $150 or less.

BKMom, what city/state are you in? We might be able to point you in a good direction on Craigslist.

[rlundregan]

A Smith machine is a machine with a built-in bar that slides up and down on two rails. The bar has hooks that fit into slots all along the path of movement so that you can turn your wrists and lock the bar into place at any point as a safety feature. The downside to a Smith is that you are locked into a fairly rigid pattern of movement.

A power rack looks like a cage, and uses an Olympic barbell. There are safety bars that catch the bar in the case of a drop so that you can't be crushed while doing bench presses or squats. With a power rack, you can perform movements along the body's natural pathway.

I'm not against Smith machines, but I personally prefer power racks, FWIW.

[Stasher1]

Power rack:



Half rack:



Squat rack:



Squat rack:



Squat stands:



Smith machine:

[BKMom]

Yes - my son is 14. He's about 5'11 and weighs 167lbs - wears a size 13 shoe...a pretty good sized kid. Since this is a gift and it's something the whole family can use, I don't really care about budget - but at the same time I do want to be smart about the purchase. Space isn't too much of concern either. We have a pretty big house with extra rooms. Eventually, we want to add another building on our property to be our "body shop" to house all of our workout equipment/gear, but that's probablly 6 months to a year away at this point.

I'm in Central Mississippi. I've looked on craigslist and I have found a few things but at this point just haven't decided what would be the best option.

I just want him to have the equipment to better himself and be able to do it safely even when no one is home.

Also, I want to say that I appreciate all the responses and you guys being so patient with me. (Since I still have a lot to learn about all of this).