Conjugate Method aka Westside method

[Handcannon7]

Just watched a series of videos where Louie Simmons is talking for a group of people about the conjugate method, and ive always had a interest in both being strong and being bigger, but decided im going to commit to being stronger now.

Now the problem I have with it is, is it for everyone? Or more for people with elite status/close to elite status, even though he was talking about how he had a 12 year old benching using the conjugate method, with good results. Now that could be because of noob gains, or not IDK. The other problem is that they use chains and bands A LOT, which I dont currently have and since I dont go to a Pling gym, neither does the gym. So is the program any good WITHOUT bands and chains and the different types of bars they use, since Louie also mentions how switching exercises is also very important which some times involve SSB/cambered bar/etc?
Im not a complete idiot when it comes to strength training as Ive read about different methods before, but I'm actually going to commit myself to lifting for strength now, so in an educated persons opinion, what program should I use?
SL/Madcows?
5/3/1?
Westside method w/o bands
Other??

btw lifts are
225 bench
estimated best squat around 335
460 DL
These are my stats after a year w/o training for strength (i.e frequency was not that of a strength program) and keeping in mind 95% of the time I DB bench.
Also this fall I was box squatting instead of doing a reg back squat and realized my box squat was better than my back squat by a decent amount (this wasnt a low box, but it wasnt really high either) and im wondering if that would mean a glute weakness.

[Liftamulti]

Think about it like this, on these routines this how often you progress:
Madcows 5x5 - weekly
5/3/1 - monthly
Westside - slowly

Wouldn't you want to train progressing as fast as possible? Don't think as madcows as beginner, think of it as faster.

[kayne695]

squatting 3 times a week is fun

[Heavy_Beats]

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to. How about you do Starting Strength, then advanced novice, then texas method and then worry about needing to do something fancy? As a matter of fact I remember how Glenn Pendlay was talking about how Texas Method becomes more and more like conjugate method the more fancy it becomes.

http://pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=2411&page=2

Something like the texas method works pretty well with changes in exercises and "waves" of volume or band tension. When I wrote the first couple of drafts for the "intermediate" chapter of Rippetoes book Starting Strength, I described a lot of this, but not all of it made it to the final version. It really just takes experimentation, and the longer you use it the more and more it starts to look like a classic "westside" routine.

There is no question in my mind that the classic 5 by 5 on monday, light triples on wednesday, then a max set of 5 on friday works better than westside for people right out of the "beginner" phase of growing every time they look at a weight. I think there has been some validation of this even from the westside camp in recent years with the various "westside for beginners" types of programs from those associated with westside that look an awful lot like the texas method.

But like anything else, it doesnt work forever. The first thing that usually needs to happen is a switching back and forth from pushing the volume to pushing the intensity. I have written about this quite a bit in various places. When your max set of 5 on friday first stalls, the best way to get it going again is to take 20 or 30lbs off your monday weight for 5 sets of 5, and then temporarily stop trying to increase it, just hold it constant for a few weeks. Usually this little tweak will allow some extra recovery and allow fridays weight to take back off for a few weeks. Then you can take 20-30lbs off your set on friday, and push Mondays workout for a while and usually get another Personal Record for 5 sets of 5 before that stalls out. switching back and forth like this will usually keep things going for a few months after an initial stall. But, again, it wont work forever.

Then you get into tweaking the rep ranges. volume day might become 5 sets of 10 for a while, intensity day might become max singles or doubles... at this point its pretty individual and well beyond the abilty of me or anyone else to prescribe generically.

Beyond that, you get into 3-4 week waves using increasing or decreasing band tension, rotating different exercises or using different bars etc. And this starts to look a lot like Westside. One thing I have seen work is adding or taking away band tension for 3-4 weeks, then starting over. For instance, on the volume day, 400lbs with 200lbs of band tension at the top one week, 100lbs of bands on top on week 2, then no bands on week 3. Then repeat.

I like to stick with one thing that changes week to week, dont rotate everything at once. If using decreasing band tension, I would use the same exercises for intensity day for all three weeks. Say you doing a squat max triple on a 10" box with a safety squat bar, followed by a stiff leg sumo deadlift for intensity day, I would stick with those two for the whole wave.

A lot like Westside huh? Then we come to the 8 week cycle we talked about earlier in the thread... or the "hormonal fluctuation model" that I put up on the web in 2001 or 2002. Both work on the same principle, and both are a bit more on the advanced side than what we have talked about so far. Louie came up with his version of the same thing, and called it the "circa-maxima" method. 3 different methods but all work on the same principles, and all more advanced than the regular westside training or the "texas method".

[Handcannon7]

Think about it like this, on these routines this how often you progress:
Madcows 5x5 - weekly
5/3/1 - monthly
Westside - slowly

Wouldn't you want to train progressing as fast as possible? Don't think as madcows as beginner, think of it as faster.

Of course quickly as possible w/o stalling but I dont feel like Ill be able to progress for very long on a weekly basis since when Ive always done my compounds for bench/squat in a 3x5 or 5x5 manner, and for DL's a lot of the time performing either heavy triples, doubles or singles with usually close to maximal weight.

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to. How about you do Starting Strength, then advanced novice, then texas method and then worry about needing to do something fancy? As a matter of fact I remember how Glenn Pendlay was talking about how Texas Method becomes more and more like conjugate method the more fancy it becomes.

http://pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=2411&page=2

Interesting read about the texas method and something ill throw in my bookmarks for future use, but as I stated above I feel like it will be difficult progressing workout to workout on something like SS for me since Ive essentially been doing a "SS" method for my compounds, except without the frequency of SS, incorporated into my split.

Right now just trying to get stronger, plan on competing for the first time later in the year @ 165 aiming for 400+ squat 515 DL and 275 bench, Stronglifts sound like a good idea, using 90% of my gym PR's in the calculator to get my weekly weights?

[samsont]

Think about it like this, on these routines this how often you progress:
Madcows 5x5 - weekly
5/3/1 - monthly
Westside - slowly

Wouldn't you want to train progressing as fast as possible? Don't think as madcows as beginner, think of it as faster.

IF you're a beginner/intermediate how is westside slow? hit PR's every week.. I did it for my first 5 months of training PLing and was constantly gaining strength.. max effort all the time will do that. (of course I was training with experts and had proper direction).


OP, if you're interested in conjugate method... read every article louie has put on his website. Find Isaku's thread about westside/conjugate, read louie's books, dave tate's articles.. after that it becomes simple. I really enjoyed it while I had the time and tools around to do it.

now I'm on 5/3/1 for powerlifting, really nice program, highly reccomend it aswell.

[Handcannon7]

IF you're a beginner/intermediate how is westside slow? hit PR's every week.. I did it for my first 5 months of training PLing and was constantly gaining strength.. max effort all the time will do that. (of course I was training with experts and had proper direction).


OP, if you're interested in conjugate method... read every article louie has put on his website. Find Isaku's thread about westside/conjugate, read louie's books, dave tate's articles.. after that it becomes simple. I really enjoyed it while I had the time and tools around to do it.

now I'm on 5/3/1 for powerlifting, really nice program, highly reccomend it aswell.

Thanks for providing evidence towards westside being able to be used by any level. I mean Louie has said before hes trained younger kids, and beginners using the same westside method and theyve had the same types of strength gains, Idk why you wouldnt, frequency is pretty much the same on westside and volume isnt too much different either.

If you PR on rack pulls, youre going to PR your DL, if you PR your box squat youre going to PR your Squat, if you PR your floor press, youre going to PR your BP. Pretty sure that was his argument as to explaining how PRing on a different exercise, with 50-60% of your max, banded will translate into a PR in competition.

[samsont]

Thanks for providing evidence towards westside being able to be used by any level. I mean Louie has said before hes trained younger kids, and beginners using the same westside method and theyve had the same types of strength gains, Idk why you wouldnt, frequency is pretty much the same on westside and volume isnt too much different either.

I think a lot of the arguement against it is because, most people don't believe beginner's have the smarts or know how to properly program it. and there is truth to that.. Westside is about building the lift, not just training it. So you have to be able to find and address your weaknesses. Gotta know what movements directly correlate to your main lifts. i got to 315/285/355 in just a few months. I did tons of reading and had pro's to ask questions to (brian schwab and jo jordan).. but after a while it was second nature.. my 2-board press would go up 10 lbs and I'd know my bench just got stronger, close grip PR = bench stronger.. new good morning PR i know my squat or deadlift is getting better, etc.

[HamburgerTrain]

A lot of weird, biased opinions in here. The measure of a good program is:

1. one that puts pounds on your total

and

2. one with a logical, adaptable progression.

I have been following westsides methods for 5 years now (started while playing college football). I have just recently developed enough understanding to optimize the training. It takes a while to get it right if you are doing it by yourself. I took a trip to westside last year and passed the special strength cert. (which was the hardest test I've ever taken... even though I have a Master's in applied physiology) and the few days I spent there clarified a lot of stuff.

It does work for everyone if you arent a stupid meathead about your training. Progression is key but forum chatter suggests you just max out and just do speed work and that's Westside. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reaons westside doesnt work for some id because they are doing it wrong. Plain and simple.

[arian11]

A lot of weird, biased opinions in here. The measure of a good program is:

1. one that puts pounds on your total

and

2. one with a logical, adaptable progression.

I have been following westsides methods for 5 years now (started while playing college football). I have just recently developed enough understanding to optimize the training. It takes a while to get it right if you are doing it by yourself. I took a trip to westside last year and passed the special strength cert. (which was the hardest test I've ever taken... even though I have a Master's in applied physiology) and the few days I spent there clarified a lot of stuff.

It does work for everyone if you arent a stupid meathead about your training. Progression is key but forum chatter suggests you just max out and just do speed work and that's Westside. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reaons westside doesnt work for some id because they are doing it wrong. Plain and simple.

This. The reason why I would suggest Starting Strength or Madcows or something like that to a beginner/intermediate is because you need to be good at programming to effectively use Westside. Or have a coach who knows what he is doing. Starting Strength is pretty hard to screw up. Westside is pretty easy to screw up. But I'm sure you still have weekly progress in you. I have a 250 bench and I recently simplified my bench workout into a 5x5 day and a 1x3 day. I've been hitting 5 lbs PRs on both days for 4 weeks now. My 1x3 day has gone from 225x3 to 240x3 and my 5x5 day has gone from 205x5x5 to 220x5x5. Also my close grip has gone up from 205x3 to 220x3. So I don't see why you wouldn't be able to produce the same or better results.

[manganostrength]

When I started powerlifting 6 years ago the guys I trained with used the Westside method so luckily I had some good coaches. I made ridiculously fast progress. Of course some of this was due to the fact that I had never trained to be that strong before and some was from the fact that I had good coaching. But anyone who says the WS method is slow has no clue what they are talking about. As stated above, you need to really understand the training and it isn't easy pretty much because Louie Simmons, though a great coach, is not a great writer. I remember reading some of his articles 20+ times trying to understand what he was saying.

In my opinion though, if you understand how his method works there is no better training system for getting stronger. If you know what you are doing you can make gains forever.

[Team Benchpress]

A lot of weird, biased opinions in here. The measure of a good program is:

1. one that puts pounds on your total

and

2. one with a logical, adaptable progression.

I have been following westsides methods for 5 years now (started while playing college football). I have just recently developed enough understanding to optimize the training. It takes a while to get it right if you are doing it by yourself. I took a trip to westside last year and passed the special strength cert. (which was the hardest test I've ever taken... even though I have a Master's in applied physiology) and the few days I spent there clarified a lot of stuff.

It does work for everyone if you arent a stupid meathead about your training. Progression is key but forum chatter suggests you just max out and just do speed work and that's Westside. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reaons westside doesnt work for some id because they are doing it wrong. Plain and simple.

How would you compare the info on Louie's site and Dave Tate's site to the information you learned from your trip? I've been reading and watching videos about westside and trying to start but seems hopeless without actually coming down there. Even Louie said forget all the BS on the internet and come down to see what it really is. It's been going well for me so far except I'm slow on speed days and unsure about percentages for raw lifters because I heard louie give different percentages in different videos.

I wonder how do they know if its actually speed work that brings up max lifts or just that fact that its like a feeder workout

[JacobRothenberg]

if not having bands is stopping you from doing westside, maybe you should just buy the freakin' bands.

you can get away with not having specialty bars and even chains, but bands and boards are a must. dont be a bitch

[dtaps24]

Hi guys. What are we talking about again?

[HamburgerTrain]

How would you compare the info on Louie's site and Dave Tate's site to the information you learned from your trip? I've been reading and watching videos about westside and trying to start but seems hopeless without actually coming down there. Even Louie said forget all the BS on the internet and come down to see what it really is. It's been going well for me so far except I'm slow on speed days and unsure about percentages for raw lifters because I heard louie give different percentages in different videos.

I wonder how do they know if its actually speed work that brings up max lifts or just that fact that its like a feeder workout

The trip was a lot different than anything I've read or seen online. It's funny though, talking with Louie, I was coming to the same conclusions in my own training with some of the methods they were experimenting with at the time. Higher volumes on speed work and a kind of 'pre-exhaust' method with some of the lagging bench pressers. They are doing all kinds of **** there that you won't find online.

[Liftamulti]

Of course quickly as possible w/o stalling but I dont feel like Ill be able to progress for very long on a weekly basis since when Ive always done my compounds for bench/squat in a 3x5 or 5x5 manner, and for DL's a lot of the time performing either heavy triples, doubles or singles with usually close to maximal weight.

I'm stronger than you (besides deadlift) and I progress on madcows just fine. Its1ow has gotten 500+ squat from it.

IF you're a beginner/intermediate how is westside slow? hit PR's every week.. I did it for my first 5 months of training PLing and was constantly gaining strength.. max effort all the time will do that. (of course I was training with experts and had proper direction).

Because what are you hitting a PR on? Banded two board bench? Great you get a 5lb PR but that doesnt mean a 5 lb PR on regular bench. Madcows or linear progression is consistent PRs every week on the big 3.

[HamburgerTrain]

I'm stronger than you (besides deadlift) and I progress on madcows just fine. Its1ow has gotten 500+ squat from it.



Because what are you hitting a PR on? Banded two board bench? Great you get a 5lb PR but that doesnt mean a 5 lb PR on regular bench. Madcows or linear progression is consistent PRs every week on the big 3.

If there is a logical reason why he is doing a banded two board press, like developing some sort of weakness in the upper end of his bench press, then yes. His competition bench will improve.

People seem to forget, that's all that matters. Progression in competition totals, not progression in training. Different methods work for different lifters.

The lack of logic you used to respond to the above posts shows you have a serious mental weakness holding you back, you might want to work on that. Using that same logic, I progress from meet to meet pretty well. I NEVER do a regular squat, bench, or deadlift in training. I don't even test my openers. But I have squatted 670 in knee sleeves in the USAPL and pulled 804 and 810 in competition. Does that mean I'm right and your wrong? No. I'm right for my needs, you are right for yours.

It's definitely not federations or gear that ruin powerlifting, it's $hitty attitudes and voicing those attitudes on the internet. Unless you are smashing all-time records from meet to meet, maybe you should keep stupid $hit like this to yourself.

[Liftamulti]

Don't call me stupid. I set records and get first place every time I step on the platform. I couldn't care less what your numbers are. OPs numbers suck, I can rep them. His weaknesses are that he's weak. linear progression would be the quickest, easiest way to progress.

[samsont]

I'm stronger than you (besides deadlift) and I progress on madcows just fine. Its1ow has gotten 500+ squat from it.



Because what are you hitting a PR on? Banded two board bench? Great you get a 5lb PR but that doesnt mean a 5 lb PR on regular bench. Madcows or linear progression is consistent PRs every week on the big 3.

actually when I was doing conjugate method, when i'd 10lb PR on say, 2board press, my regular bench usually went up 5-10lbs. don't speak on what you don't know. same with close grip. I found direct correllation with on my 2board and close grip to my flat press.

[Liftamulti]

actually when I was doing conjugate method, when i'd 10lb PR on say, 2board press, my regular bench usually went up 5-10lbs. don't speak on what you don't know. same with close grip. I found direct correllation with on my 2board and close grip to my flat press.

You don't think I've ever done a 2 board press? On madcows, 5 lb increase on flat bench = 5 lb increase on flat bench. It's pretty concrete.

[Norse1308]

Don't call me stupid. I set records and get first place every time I step on the platform. I couldn't care less what your numbers are. OPs numbers suck, I can rep them. His weaknesses are that he's weak. linear progression would be the quickest, easiest way to progress.

Don't be a Tator.

[Liftamulti]

I need the judge in here to back me up for the thousandth time.

[Black_Spit]

The lack of logic you used to respond to the above posts shows you have a serious mental weakness holding you back, you might want to work on that. Using that same logic, I progress from meet to meet pretty well. I NEVER do a regular squat, bench, or deadlift in training. I don't even test my openers. But I have squatted 670 in knee sleeves in the USAPL and pulled 804 and 810 in competition. Does that mean I'm right and your wrong? No. I'm right for my needs, you are right for yours.

It's definitely not federations or gear that ruin powerlifting, it's $hitty attitudes and voicing those attitudes on the internet. Unless you are smashing all-time records from meet to meet, maybe you should keep stupid $hit like this to yourself.

Was there really any need for the personal stuff?

[C0bra]

this thread quickly turned into a dick measuring contest


Dear OP,

The best thing you can do is pick a proven program.....any program....I don't care if it's SS, Madcow's, Westside, or 5/3/1....just pick one that YOU find interesting and that YOU think you will enjoy......run it and stick with it long enough to decide if it works for you.....and I don't mean run it for a month and program hop.....give it 6-8 solid months......assess if it has worked for you or not, which will be easy because if your lifts go up then it is working for you.....the most important thing is that you add weight to your total.....I don't give a sh*t if it's done using westside or SS or from doing cawk pushups.....just as long as your toal goes up

I started 8 months ago with weaker lifts than you

235 bench
275 squat
295 deadlift

if I had come on this board asking what program to do Everyone on here would have told me what their personal favorite program was and tried to jam it down my throat saying the same thing they always say "YOU ARE A BEGINNER YOU HAVE TO DO XYZ PROGRAM STUPID!!!!!"

I say FUKK that......do whatever the FUKK you want and FUKK what everyone else says.....if your total goes up every year then that is all that fukking matters

/rant

[SQUAT316]

this thread quickly turned into a dick measuring contest


Dear OP,

The best thing you can do is pick a proven program.....any program....I don't care if it's SS, Madcow's, Westside, or 5/3/1....just pick one that YOU find interesting and that YOU think you will enjoy......run it and stick with it long enough to decide if it works for you.....and I don't mean run it for a month and program hop.....give it 6-8 solid months......assess if it has worked for you or not, which will be easy because if your lifts go up then it is working for you.....the most important thing is that you add weight to your total.....I don't give a sh*t if it's done using westside or SS or from doing cawk pushups.....just as long as your toal goes up

I started 8 months ago with weaker lifts than you

235 bench
275 squat
295 deadlift

if I had come on this board asking what program to do Everyone on here would have told me what their personal favorite program was and tried to jam it down my throat saying the same thing they always say "YOU ARE A BEGINNER YOU HAVE TO DO XYZ PROGRAM STUPID!!!!!"

I say FUKK that......do whatever the FUKK you want and FUKK what everyone else says.....if your total goes up every year then that is all that fukking matters

/rant

U flustered bro?

[samsont]

U flustered bro?

he's right.

[nsurdis]

We are so far off the OP it ain't funny.

Simple answers.. they all work if done with some type of plan. Progressive overload tends to slow down after one goes from beginner to intermediate... the others if done right continue to grow from beginner thru intermediate.. with westside, or some type of conjugate method necessary for truly advanced lifting. (Advanced is a level most lifters will not attain. Its Elite totals plus)

[dtaps24]

If I started a thread with a question about the conjugate method and probably the top lifter on this site and one of the top guys in the country who happens to train Westside came in to share his opinions and experiences including those he had AT WESTSIDE BARBELL, I would thank people not to argue with him. LAM, do not compare the fact that you beat the 3 other 150 lbs. 17 year olds in the country that compete in your federation with Mike Hedlesky's accomplishments, it's just silly. As much as I like and respect the Judge, he is not in the same stratosphere (at this point) and will probably admit as much, so I wouldn't hold my breath on him coming in here to "have your back." Moreover, he didn't really insult you or call you stupid, he said that you had tunnel vision and were not keeping an open mind. He even specified that his lifts didn't mean what he does is right for everybody. You are off to a good start in this sport because you are starting early and have a lot of time to grow, but I hope at some point you realize that it's tough to listen when you don't shut up.

OP, take all of the responses you get into account,come up with a plan and execute it.

Mike, please continue to contribute to this site, the vast majority of us highly value your opinions and it would piss me off if one person getting defensive alienated you.

[C0bra]

If I started a thread with a question about the conjugate method and probably the top lifter on this site and one of the top guys in the country who happens to train Westside came in to share his opinions and experiences including those he had AT WESTSIDE BARBELL, I would thank people not to argue with him. LAM, do not compare the fact that you beat the 3 other 150 lbs. 17 year olds in the country that compete in your federation with Mike Hedlesky's accomplishments, it's just silly. As much as I like and respect the Judge, he is not in the same stratosphere (at this point) and will probably admit as much, so I wouldn't hold my breath on him coming in here to "have your back." Moreover, he didn't really insult you or call you stupid, he said that you had tunnel vision and were not keeping an open mind. He even specified that his lifts didn't mean what he does is right for everybody. You are off to a good start in this sport because you are starting early and have a lot of time to grow, but I hope at some point you realize that it's tough to listen when you don't shut up.

OP, take all of the responses you get into account,come up with a plan and execute it.

Mike, please continue to contribute to this site, the vast majority of us highly value your opinions and it would piss me off if one person getting defensive alienated you.

[C0bra]

Don't call me stupid. I set records and get first place every time I step on the platform. I couldn't care less what your numbers are. OPs numbers suck, I can rep them. His weaknesses are that he's weak. linear progression would be the quickest, easiest way to progress.

Just me being curious...how long did you follow linear progression?