Guess who has low T?...:) Can you still make progress?

[HairyScandinavian]

Interesting thread this is, ID, thank you for posting. Quick question for you. I know you, like myself, have seen some success with some of the test booster products everyone around here says is a waste of time. With your normal total levels and low "free" levels do you think this contributes to the success of the boosters, whereas someone with more of a normal low overall score wouldn't see much gain from it?

I've had all the symptoms for some time now, though I don't feel like dedicating my life to HRT so I've not bothered being tested and just keep plugging away. When I read about you losing your patience with the kids though, that about blew me out of my chair. Just a few weeks ago my wife mentioned how I used to be able to tolerate the childish behavior and that I need to be more patient now like I used to be. That's the type of thing that might make me push further into the tests. In 2003 my little truck got crushed between an 18 wheeler and a dumpster truck, nothing near as serious as yours but I took a bump on the head and was dizzy with serious vertigo for about 18 months and still to this day will have a sudden vertigo spell where the world spins around once or twice a year if I turn my head rapidly and sort of upward. Probably not related, but when reading about your head injury it popped into my mind.

Hey guys....come on now... This tread got pulled once already. We know the rules....no talk of prescription drugs or illegal ones.

Dutchmans was only a casual reference....but Ryanmcd....come on dude. Please edit your posts and take the "banned' stuff out. And you guys sometimes wonder why the mods seem heavy handed.....Ryanmcd has been here since 07 and does not know the rules yet?

You'll need to edit your quote as well. Maybe a mod can delete *just that one post*?

[Ryanmcd]

Sorry about that, did not know the rules on legal doc written scripts. Was just trying to help out so if they do HRT they don't have the same issues that cost me time and money to resolve.

[induced_drag]

Interesting thread this is, ID, thank you for posting. Quick question for you. I know you, like myself, have seen some success with some of the test booster products everyone around here says is a waste of time. With your normal total levels and low "free" levels do you think this contributes to the success of the boosters, whereas someone with more of a normal low overall score wouldn't see much gain from it?

I have wondered....but DAA which only increases LH which increases total test was something I noticed the most... Interesting though as I mentioned that Activate Xtreme is based around stinging nettle root which in human trials is shown to lower SHBG thereby raising Free test. Might be why that worked well for me.

....... When I read about you losing your patience with the kids though, that about blew me out of my chair. Just a few weeks ago my wife mentioned how I used to be able to tolerate the childish behavior and that I need to be more patient now like I used to be...

Yes...pretty dramatic for me. They warned both me and my wife that after the type of injury I had that personality changes were very common. It is funny how difficult it is to notice things that happen slowly. I think of it as when you get a puppy. When your friends see him, they comment on how big he is getting, but you see him everyday and dont even notice the changes.....until you see pictures.

For me, the test boosters, were my "picture" of how I think I felt normally. I had forgotten what it felt to feel good and energetic. My biggest struggle right now is that I can never seem to get enough sleep. I am not kidding that I could sleep 14 hours without blinking....and still wake up tired.

As for personality changes....the patience was a big thing for me....as it was one of my core defining traits. I love the chaos of kids, the noise, the laughter and even the occasional mishap that breaks something. I used to revel in it,....but now struggle to find the same patience I once had. Commotion in general is much harder for me to deal with.....But like anything, we can always work to get better!

You'll need to edit your quote as well. Maybe a mod can delete *just that one post*?

Fixed! Thanks!

Sorry about that, did not know the rules on legal doc written scripts. Was just trying to help out so if they do HRT they don't have the same issues that cost me time and money to resolve.

Thanks, you may not know, but this thread already got pulled once. I am going to try to keep it on topic AND within rules. Thanks for the offer of help. I dont even know what the eventually answer will be.

[Big_Sky_Guy]

Not doing my own research and solely trusting my Doc many years ago cost me a $700 trip in an MRI.

A 10 minute trip to Google, Pub Med and a couple other sites explained what was happening with my blood work and would have saved me the $700. Trust, but verify has been my method ever since!

Good luck with finding your causal factors and hopefully correcting them. Having normal T, or even high free T, does not always mean we are going to "feel" right.

My wife has Hashimotos Thryroiditis and it took a couple years to find an endo that would respond to how she felt more than to what the numbers said. Feeling exhausted every day, yet having the numbers say you are OK, was very frustrating and she walked away from 2 different Docs as they refused to treat her symptoms. She is currently with one that understands.

Crying at movies...what's not to cry about?!? Been that way my whole life. I experience emotions very intensely, even other's emotions. Singing in church...filled with gratitude, or sharing in an AA meeting how my life is 1000 x's better without booze = complete wreck. I stopped caring much many years ago. It is who I am. Being empathetic is not a bad thing. (OK- back on track here!)

Sounds like you have a very responsive and well-educated Doc. I wish I had one that was willing to put in the extra effort.

[HairyScandinavian]

For me, the test boosters, were my "picture" of how I think I felt normally. I had forgotten what it felt to feel good and energetic. My biggest struggle right now is that I can never seem to get enough sleep. I am not kidding that I could sleep 14 hours without blinking....and still wake up tired.

LOL, I've been sleeping 12 hours on weekends for probably 10 years. Seems like the more sleep I get the more tired I am and slow to get moving. I've had big weekend out of town hunting/fishing trips ruined because I slept too long. It used to be the hardest thing ever waking up for work, went through streaks of a few weeks/months at a time where it would get me in some trouble sometimes and then it would get better. For this last year though I've been doing great at that with no problems and feels like I'm finally able to conquer that demon. The difference being I wake up earlier before the sun comes up, whereas before sleeping an hour or so later I struggled to get up. I'll still sleep 12+ on the weekends though, and even with big plans on the weekend I'm going to end up sleeping later than I'd like.

[Flyboyjc]

ID, could I ask a follow-up your experiences with DAA and Activate Extreme/triazole please? You had good results with both? Your doc said stop DAA - why? Are you still taking Activate?

Forgive my ignorance on this as I'm new to this topic - other than suspecting for years that my levels were low.

Thank you in advance!

[induced_drag]

ID, could I ask a follow-up your experiences with DAA and Activate Extreme/triazole please? You had good results with both? Your doc said stop DAA - why? Are you still taking Activate?

Forgive my ignorance on this as I'm new to this topic - other than suspecting for years that my levels were low.

Thank you in advance!

Yes....I had what I consider great results on a stack of Activate Xtreme and Triazole. What I experienced twice running it were: noticeable spikes in strength, increased recovery, I also notice elevated mood and libido. Everything but the spike in strength is subjective...and can be attributed to placebo.....but I have a hard time attributing my strength spike to placebo. It was pronounced and I do a very good job of tracking workouts. It really worked well. Also hard to explain DOMS totally going away while making strength gains (meaning additional volume) and then returning when the run was over.

The absolute best thing I experienced is a stack of DAA with Triazole. This really blew the other away in my opinion. Again, the significant strength spike it hard to deny. My feeling of well being was also much greater and well.....lets say when the morning visitor comes knocking almost every morning....something is up.

I really have to hand it to DS. They have been ahead of the curve on many of their products and all are backed with science. No bunk like trib...or ZMA.... I have collected a bunch of technical articles on their ingredients and their methods of action. It is very interesting....and all backed with scientific research.

It is funny that in searching for solutions to my issues, I am coming across know treatments that are based in the ingredients selected by DS. As men age....even if their test levels dont decline much, often thier SHGB increased. This binds up test and drops your free test. (the important one). Activate Xtreme is pretty much a cocktail of the best ingredients known naturally to combat this......pretty interesting to verify this in my research. This makes Activate an ideal thing to try for us older guys....



He wanted me to stop DAA because we both agreed it was not a viable long-term solution to my issue. (although I feel great on it!) The path to fixing my issues will take many months of trial and error and blood tests. We dont need any outside variables making finding a solution harder.....

Other then that, he was very receptive to the DAA.

[induced_drag]

In the interest of Science behind Natural Testboosters.....here is some stuff.

Everyone knows the DAA study in italy. Showed an avg 40% increase in total test in a 10 day period at a dose of 3g daily. Pathway is believed to be release of LH causing more test production.

With fears of additional test converting to estrogen, many recommend running something to protect against this. DS Triazole is a great product.
Here is some science behind one of it's ingredients:


Isolation and Characterization of Aromatase Inhibitors from Brassaiopsis glomerulata (Araliaceae)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...74390008000918

Activate Xtreme is another good testbooster.
This is the one based on Stinging Nettle extract. Trade name for extract is Divanill (3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran)
I just copied and pasted this but it is a bunch of info:

Interaction of lignans on SHBG

lignan found in nettle for inhibition of shbg
Z Naturforsch [C]. 1997 Nov-Dec;52(11-12):834-43. Related Articles, Links


Interaction of lignans with human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).

Schottner M, Gansser D, Spiteller G.

Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany.

Lignans bind to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). The lignan with the highest binding affinity is (+/-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. In a double Stobbe condensation--without use of protecting groups--a wide variety of lignans with different substitution pattern in the aromatic and aliphatic part of the molecule was synthesized. These lignans were tested in a SHBG-binding assay which allowed to deduce the following relationship between structure and activity: 1) (+/-)-diastereoisomers are more active than meso compounds 2.) the 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy (guajacyl) substitution pattern in the aromatic part is most effective 3.) the activity increases with the decline in polarity of the aliphatic part of the molecule.

PMID: 9463941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


J Nat Prod. 1998 Jan;61(1):119-21. Related Articles, Links


Lignans interfering with 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone binding to human sex hormone-binding globulin.

Schottner M, Spiteller G, Gansser D.

Lehrstuhl fur organische Chemie, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany.

The natural lignans (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran (1), (-)-matairesinol (2), (-)-secoisolariciresinol (3), (+/-)-enterolactone (4), (+/-)-enterodiol (5), and nordihydroguaiaretic acid (NDGA) (6) reduce the binding of 3H-labeled 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) to human sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). (-)-3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran (1) has the highest binding affinity (Ka = 3.2 +/- 1.7 x 10(6)M-1) of all lignans investigated so far; the reversibility of its binding and a double reciprocal plot suggest a competitive inhibition of the SHBG-DHT interaction. Increasing hydrophobity in the aliphatic part of the lignans (butane-1,4-diol-butanolide-tetrahydrofuran structures) leads to higher binding affinity. In the aromatic part, a 3-methoxy-4-hydroxy substitution pattern is most effective for binding to SHBG.

PMID: 9461660 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Planta Med. 1997 Dec;63(6):529-32. Related Articles, Links


Lignans from the roots of Urtica dioica and their metabolites bind to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG).

Schottner M, Gansser D, Spiteller G.

Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universitat Bayreuth, Germany.

Polar extracts of the stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots contain the ligans (+)-neoolivil, (-)-secoisolariciresinol, dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, isolariciresinol, pinoresinol, and 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran. These compounds were either isolated from Urtica roots, or obtained semisynthetically. Their affinity to human sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was tested in an in vitro assay. In addition, the main intestinal transformation products of plant lignans in humans, enterodiol and enterolactone, together with enterofuran were checked for their activity. All lignans except (-)-pinoresinol developed a binding affinity to SHBG in the in vitro assay. The affinity of (-)-3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran was outstandingly high. These findings are discussed with respect to potential beneficial effects of plant lignans on benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).

PMID: 9434605 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Flyboyjc]

Holy smokes ID, I can't thank you enough for your time and the detail you provided! Gonna take me a while to digest your last post...cause I read slow ;-) Lots of great stuff there for those of us who've been wondering.

Completely understand your doc's instructions now. Good luck with your quest!

[induced_drag]

Holy smokes ID, I can't thank you enough for your time and the detail you provided! Gonna take me a while to digest your last post...cause I read slow ;-) Lots of great stuff there for those of us who've been wondering.

Completely understand your doc's instructions now. Good luck with your quest!

I just want to make one point clear....as a matter of fact...It is really the point of this whole thread.


Even though I feel testboosters do work......in the big picture..... there effects are MINIMAL when compared to the effect of proper nutrition. Look at the gains I have made despite my T being in the trash can!

I have said this a bunch of times....in the hierarchy of importance of training.... I see it like this:

1,2,and 3, Training, diet, and recovery. (you can place those in what ever order you want....as long as they are the top 3 you will do OK)
4
5
6 whats on tv
7
8
9 phase of the moon
10
11
........
49 peanut butter or jelly
50 Testboosters.

Serious.... Lots of things to get in order in the house before I think most people will notice a big difference. I have noticed the more regimented the guy is in his training and nutrition, the more they notice the effects. If you have no control of your daily intake....how in the heck can you say anything has an effect when there are too many variables.

[Flyboyjc]

I just want to make one point clear....as a matter of fact...It is really the point of this whole thread.


Even though I feel testboosters do work......in the big picture..... there effects are MINIMAL when compared to the effect of proper nutrition. Look at the gains I have made despite my T being in the trash can!

I have said this a bunch of times....in the hierarchy of importance of training.... I see it like this:

1,2,and 3, Training, diet, and recovery. (you can place those in what ever order you want....as long as they are the top 3 you will do OK)
4
5
6 whats on tv
7
8
9 phase of the moon
10
11
........
49 peanut butter or jelly
50 Testboosters.

Serious.... Lots of things to get in order in the house before I think most people will notice a big difference. I have noticed the more regimented the guy is in his training and nutrition, the more they notice the effects. If you have no control of your daily intake....how in the heck can you say anything has an effect when there are too many variables.

Point well taken and thank you again! Your gains have been awesome!

I've only come to the realization recently how important diet is to the whole health picture-thingy. Decided to experiment with a more primal diet only to discover I am a lot more sensitive to gluten than the average person is. Won't go into detail for the sake of limiting thread drift but the improvement in overall health has been significant just because I've eliminated grain from my diet. I would never tell someone else that primal is the be-all-and-end-all solution, but it works for me - for sure. But I miss beer :-(

I'm not looking for a quick-fix. As you say, I've got other things in the house to get in order before I explore this further. Your thread seemed like a gift for futher research when I'm ready if I still feel there is something missing.

Best Regards,
Jim

[penn28]

ID what I read...

Total testosterone = testosterone-bound-to-SHBG + testosterone-bound-to-albumin + free testosterone

Bioavailable testosterone = testosterone-bound-to-albumin + free testosterone


There is also a supposed connection between low SHBG and Male Pattern Baldness and higher SHBG counters hair loss. So will Free T get reduced by higher SHBG?

[induced_drag]

..

There is also a supposed connection between low SHBG and Male Pattern Baldness and higher SHBG counters hair loss. So will Free T get reduced by higher SHBG?

I am not an expert and still learning all this stuff.

But as I understand it.....yes.....Free T goes down with higher levels of SHBG(it is bound by the SHBG).. As for the male pattern baldness, there is a genetic link to that as well and has to do with DHT receptors. From what I understand the DHT comes from your bodies Test....whether higher SHBG lowers the conversion rate or prevents this....I have no idea.

Thankfully I have a full head of hair although pattern baldness runs in my family. I have not started to thin.......yet

[penn28]

I am not an expert and still learning all this stuff.

But as I understand it.....yes.....Free T goes down with higher levels of SHBG(it is bound by the SHBG).. As for the male pattern baldness, there is a genetic link to that as well and has to do with DHT receptors. From what I understand the DHT comes from your bodies Test....whether higher SHBG lowers the conversion rate or prevents this....I have no idea.

Thankfully I have a full head of hair although pattern baldness runs in my family. I have not started to thin.......yet

That's what I read. Higher SHBG reduces hairloss and prevents male pattern baldness as Free Testosterone gets converted to DHT which is the primary contributing factor in male pattern baldness and BPH.

So it looks like less Free T more hair, no BPH !!! Somehow not right though as less muscle too?

[JOHN GARGANI]

ID: I am SO glad they decided to let this thread continue!!!!

and I agree with your 1-2-3....

[Dutchman]

ID, there is one very important element I think has not been mentioned IIRC, that is the idea which has come forth over the last decade ie low testosterone is an indicator for a higher chance of Prostate Cancer and that a higher testosterone level is considered indicative of a lower chance of getting PC. This is tied to today's belief that it is Estrogen which is the PC culprit.

[BrotherWolf]

And get a good 8 hours sleep. When we sleep testosterone levels peak. The more uninterrupted sleep, the more testosterone. It’s that simple.
.

How are you gonna have sex if you're sleeping ??

[vmpolesov]

My total: 475

[dave43]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I recently had a physical and asked my Dr. to check my test level. he consented but when I brought up free test he said it wasn't necessary. He said it was only necessary if my total test was low and then he might look into it. It looks like some people can have normal total test and their free test is rock bottom. Anything I can say to my Dr. to convince him that free test is an important marker?

[induced_drag]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I recently had a physical and asked my Dr. to check my test level. he consented but when I brought up free test he said it wasn't necessary. He said it was only necessary if my total test was low and then he might look into it. It looks like some people can have normal total test and their free test is rock bottom. Anything I can say to my Dr. to convince him that free test is an important marker?

The medical definition of Hypogonadism includes BOTH total test AND free test.

He may be doing an initial screening for "bio-available" test. (also called FWRA) It measures combined free and weakly bound. This is a quick screening test. It is a good indicator of what is going on all in one test. Rather then 3 (which would be Total, Free, and shbg)

When this came back screwed up is when my Dr ordered more tests. Eventually measuring (twice) Free Direct by equilibrium dialysis. (the most accurate method)

[dave43]

The medical definition of Hypogonadism includes BOTH total test AND free test.

He may be doing an initial screening for "bio-available" test. (also called FWRA) It measures combined free and weakly bound. This is a quick screening test. It is a good indicator of what is going on all in one test. Rather then 3 (which would be Total, Free, and shbg)

When this came back screwed up is when my Dr ordered more tests. Eventually measuring (twice) Free Direct by equilibrium dialysis. (the most accurate method)

Hopefully he ordered the bio available test but on the print out it said only total test.

[michail71]

Hopefully he ordered the bio available test but on the print out it said only total test.

It can be surprisingly hard to get the tests done correctly. On my first round the office that drew the blood only did total and didn't run the others even though they were on the prescription.

All should be listed on the prescription. They'll often do a psa in addition.

[dave43]

I'm really dissapointed...It turns out they only did total. I got a 406 ng/dL which is normal but I have had major fatigue problems. I would think he would do more thorough testing especially after I told him of my issue of multiple concussions, the last one being so severe I had to give up playing college football. He blames it on sleep apnea which I had when I was 60-80 lbs overweight...but sleep isn't an issue now. Ridiculous.

It can be surprisingly hard to get the tests done correctly. On my first round the office that drew the blood only did total and didn't run the others even though they were on the prescription.

All should be listed on the prescription. They'll often do a psa in addition.

[induced_drag]

I'm really dissapointed...It turns out they only did total. I got a 406 ng/dL which is normal but I have had major fatigue problems. I would think he would do more thorough testing especially after I told him of my issue of multiple concussions, the last one being so severe I had to give up playing college football. He blames it on sleep apnea which I had when I was 60-80 lbs overweight...but sleep isn't an issue now. Ridiculous.

Have you checked thyroid function? Also a pituitary stimulated hormone. (gets messed up with head injuries). Symptoms are very similar to low-t. Fatigue...etc.

Your test levels are not terrible. Barring any issues with SHBG or Estrogen you should be fine in that area. This is a link to the labcorp test for initial screeing. It is testosterone Free and weakly bound.

https://www.labcorp.com/wps/portal/!...d+Weakly+Bound

It basically measures your "bio-available test without running seperate tests of total, shbg and free. It is not super accurate, but very good for initial screening. You could have total within range, but a very high SHBG or Estrogen reading meaning there is not really any test available for your body to use. If this comes back low, the Dr would then do a direct Free test to confirm readings. He might also test LH to see if your problem is primary or secondary. (whether it is signaling problem, or problem with the boys themselves)

Dont forget that GP's have to know a wide range of medicine. You can not expect them to be experts in all fields. A visit to an Endo may serve you better. With that said, on initial look, test does not appear to be your issue.

[dave43]

Have you checked thyroid function? Also a pituitary stimulated hormone. (gets messed up with head injuries). Symptoms are very similar to low-t. Fatigue...etc.

Your test levels are not terrible. Barring any issues with SHBG or Estrogen you should be fine in that area. This is a link to the labcorp test for initial screeing. It is testosterone Free and weakly bound.

https://www.labcorp.com/wps/portal/!...d+Weakly+Bound

It basically measures your "bio-available test without running seperate tests of total, shbg and free. It is not super accurate, but very good for initial screening. You could have total within range, but a very high SHBG or Estrogen reading meaning there is not really any test available for your body to use. If this comes back low, the Dr would then do a direct Free test to confirm readings. He might also test LH to see if your problem is primary or secondary. (whether it is signaling problem, or problem with the boys themselves)

Dont forget that GP's have to know a wide range of medicine. You can not expect them to be experts in all fields. A visit to an Endo may serve you better. With that said, on initial look, test does not appear to be your issue.

Thanks ID,

My TSH test came back 0.88 (within healthy range of 0.35-4.94)

I'm just concerned especially since you had a total of 600.

To be fair my only issue is weak spells...My sex drive is good, I have plenty of body hair, etc...

Should I just move on?

[induced_drag]

Thanks ID,

My TSH test came back 0.88 (within healthy range of 0.35-4.94)

I'm just concerned especially since you had a total of 600.

To be fair my only issue is weak spells...My sex drive is good, I have plenty of body hair, etc...

Should I just move on?

Looking back, my symptoms should have been quite apparent to me. Within a 2 year period following my accident, I lost almost all my leg hair. I mean my lower legs were shiny smooth. It has just now started to grow back a little. I also had terrible mood swings, difficulty controlling emotions, and extreme fatigue all the time (no matter how much sleep I got). Never experienced ED, but my drive was also not what it once was. Happening over such a short period I should have realized....but my neurologist also had told me to expect personality changes (changes in temper...etc).

If you suspect something is wrong, I would look into it more. I can not feel what you feel and dont really know what "weak spells" are. When you say "spells" that makes me think it comes and goes. I can only relate to what I have been through and say, for me....it NEVER came and went. It was always there. The only time I felt slightly better was when I ran DAA and another test booster. It may be why I responded well to them?... I always felt they worked good for me.

TSH is only a broad test. You should have a full thyroid panel done if you suspect problems may be in that area. Low functioning thyroid and low t have very similar symptoms with regard to fatigue.

[Edmichint01]

Yes....I had what I consider great results on a stack of Activate Xtreme and Triazole. What I experienced twice running it were: noticeable spikes in strength, increased recovery, I also notice elevated mood and libido. Everything but the spike in strength is subjective...and can be attributed to placebo.....but I have a hard time attributing my strength spike to placebo. It was pronounced and I do a very good job of tracking workouts. It really worked well. Also hard to explain DOMS totally going away while making strength gains (meaning additional volume) and then returning when the run was over.

The absolute best thing I experienced is a stack of DAA with Triazole. This really blew the other away in my opinion. Again, the significant strength spike it hard to deny. My feeling of well being was also much greater and well.....lets say when the morning visitor comes knocking almost every morning....something is up.

I really have to hand it to DS. They have been ahead of the curve on many of their products and all are backed with science. No bunk like trib...or ZMA.... I have collected a bunch of technical articles on their ingredients and their methods of action. It is very interesting....and all backed with scientific research.

It is funny that in searching for solutions to my issues, I am coming across know treatments that are based in the ingredients selected by DS. As men age....even if their test levels dont decline much, often thier SHGB increased. This binds up test and drops your free test. (the important one). Activate Xtreme is pretty much a cocktail of the best ingredients known naturally to combat this......pretty interesting to verify this in my research. This makes Activate an ideal thing to try for us older guys....



He wanted me to stop DAA because we both agreed it was not a viable long-term solution to my issue. (although I feel great on it!) The path to fixing my issues will take many months of trial and error and blood tests. We dont need any outside variables making finding a solution harder.....

Other then that, he was very receptive to the DAA.

Interesting. After much trial and error of test boosters and other supplements I found that Activate Xtreme and Creapure Creatine Monohydrate made me feel a hell of a lot better, and I would do a round of DAA when I was off the AX. That is my basic go-to cycle. Sometimes I stack Triazole with the AX. At this time, however, at the age of 52, I believe the time has come to graduate from the OTC supplements and have "the talk" with my Primary Care Provider about getting me balanced. My next appointment with him is in March, so I will continue with the Activate Xtreme/Triazole/DAA until then.