I think this is a dumb question, but here goes. I have read many times that you must eat a calorie surplus in order to build muscle. However, if you have excess body fat, can your body use that fat as the fuel/energy to build muscle? Or can that fuel/energy needed to build muscle only be obtained through calories consumed?
|
-
01-11-2012, 01:41 PM #1
Can fat be used as the fuel to build muscle?
-
01-11-2012, 02:40 PM #2
-
01-11-2012, 03:23 PM #3
Keyword: excess. Yes. You can eat at deficit and use excess BF for muscle building. Where it tapers off and you need to go to surplus eating isn't a hard number, but for myself I've noticed strength gains on maintenance/deficit eating somewhere around 15%. When I hit 12-ish, I definitely need to go to surplus eating for growth.
-
01-11-2012, 03:23 PM #4
-
-
01-11-2012, 03:28 PM #5
This question gets asked here at least every other day. It's usually phrased as,"Can I lose fat at the same time as I build muscle?"
In theory, it's possible, but in practice it's a very difficult state to achieve for anyone other than an obese noob (IOW, someone who's never weight trained before and who is carrying a lot of body fat).
For someone who is already relatively lean, and has a training history, adding muscle while on a 'cut' is unlikely. Just getting through a successful cut (successful being dropping the desired amount of bf while losing only minimal muscle mass) is hard enough to do, and requires nutritional discipline that stymies all but the most dedicated trainees. Expecting to build additional muscle during this process is misguided, IMO.No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
-
01-11-2012, 04:01 PM #6
- Join Date: Sep 2008
- Location: Sandy, Utah, United States
- Posts: 6,988
- Rep Power: 16041
In theory, I don't think that's correct. If you eat below maintenance, your body can burn fat as energy, but it's not going to burn fat and use that order to build muscle. If you're saying that you can build muscle while eating below maintenance.... Good luck to you ( Ive found it's much more productive to not even try ).
Qualifying for long drive contest with 328 yard drive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKrGuFlqhaA
2017 Utah State Longest drive. This one went 328 and got me into finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-_3HrZzI4
2017 Rockwell challenge. 325 yards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeuB2rPMcBA
-
01-11-2012, 04:27 PM #7
-
01-11-2012, 04:28 PM #8
At higher bodyfat percentages, yes. As you get leaner your body will give up less and less stored fat for building muscle until it will give nothing at all when it gets to acertain point. It's a survival mechanism that we have built into us.
If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
Pro Choice
Non Christian
MAGA
2A Advocate
FJB
-
-
01-11-2012, 04:33 PM #9
Depends on how much "excess" is excess to fuel the process. At ~24+%, its not difficult give up stored energy to fuel the process. At 12% probably not happening at all -- body gets very very stingy. There's a threshold in between that gets into diminishing returns where it's unproductive to try/keep trying, thus surplus/deficit cycling is required. It's the basic premise of body recomposition.
-
01-11-2012, 05:26 PM #10
-
01-11-2012, 06:23 PM #11
- Join Date: Nov 2004
- Location: California, United States
- Age: 75
- Posts: 4,873
- Rep Power: 14837
Muscle will use fat for aerobic activities. Fat is use in excess post-exercise oxygen consumption. The act of weight training in anaerobic therefore creatine phosphate, glycogen, and glucose are the primary sources for energy.
I use carbohydrates and protein as the source for surplus calories when I’m attempting to gain muscle mass. The calories from the surplus carbohydrates and protein are in excess of the calories needed to meet my daily caloric requirement. The surplus calories gives me the source for anaerobic energy, the carbohydrates for the workouts, and the source for the amino acids to build muscle tissue, the protein.
-
01-11-2012, 08:07 PM #12
Brackneyc, and another one right here, who has lost 105 lbs of fat, and put on 30 lbs of lean muscle, in 28 months..... But I still didn't really gain muscle and lose fat at the same exact times. Lost a whole bunch of fat originally.... and at that point, I had next to zero muscle to lose anyway !
But since then, I've bulked and cut about 6 X's. Like you said, easy peasy < At least for anybody with OCD, who gets BB'ing lodged into his brain
Fish
Oh, but to the OP, like several have already said > conceivable for a noob, but not likely for anybody else. Even if a guy could gain a small amount of muscle, while losing some fat at the same time, why ? When he could make far more progress cutting and bulking ?
-
-
01-11-2012, 08:09 PM #13
- Join Date: Jul 2010
- Location: Texas, United States
- Age: 61
- Posts: 4,703
- Rep Power: 4635
Wow I'm not sure where to start.
There are no light switches, when running a deficit the body will compensate by degrading multiple tissues for substrates.
Fat, or free fatty acids can not be used to synthesize proteins, they can and are used every second of everyday for fuel.
Proteins are also degraded every second of every day for multiple reasons and they too can be used for fuel, for instance during fasting they can or will be converted into glucose for the brain.
Protein synthesis requires amino acids, which comes from both endogenous and exogenous sources, part of the great controversy over how much we should eat (exogenous)!
The best advice likely is from people like Jerry B who has experience losing body fat while minimizing protein degradation.
-
01-11-2012, 08:18 PM #14
-
01-11-2012, 09:50 PM #15
-
01-11-2012, 10:19 PM #16
I highly doubt that the fat ever turns into muscle. If you combine a good cardio program with lifting and extremely disciplined diet, it's possible that the good nutrients are used by the body to build muscle, and the cardio burns the fat.
About the only way fat builds muscle, is by carrying it around, or if you loaded lard in a box, and lifted it over your head!
Try concentrating on your diet. It's the most important thing you can do.
Good luck!I'm going to take the Sc0liosis curve out of my back and eliminate my nerve pain
-
-
01-12-2012, 12:18 AM #17
recomp is nothing new. plenty of ppl have done it successfully & naturally.
as was mentioned its most readily done when u are carrying a lot of excess bodyfat & grinds to a stop when u become lean. but the mechanism does exist - it does not defy laws as some will have you believe.
u mention calories from excess body fat being used to build muscle.
now consider the opposite - the calories from excess body fat being used to contribute fuel for daily activities while the calories from the food u eat used to build muscle.
which is correct? answer is both. your body will not separate the calories. it does not know the difference & will use all sources at once.
this issue has nothing to do with protein. nobody implied fat will turn into protein. there was no need for either of you to start at all.
lol nobody implied the fat will turn into muscle.
ppl doing recomp should make sure their glycogen levels are full before training because performance is best when using carbs as the main fuel source. this simply means they will use their excess bodyfat to help fuel the rest of their daily activities.
ppl should take note that the amount of calories required to build new muscle is negligible compared to the calories expended during the training that stimulates it & the protein required to build new muscle is negligible compared to the protein required to rebuild what you simply tore down. this can easily be proven if you simply consider calorie content & protein content of 20lbs of muscle built over the course of a whole year with regards to daily requirements.Last edited by gomez26; 01-12-2012 at 12:44 AM.
"Though the concept is not scientifically validated in detail (it should be considered as a hypothesis rather than a scientific theory), it is useful from a practical standpoint. When training athletes, it is impossible to wait until scientific research provides all of the necessary knowledge." Vladmir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D.
-
01-12-2012, 05:29 AM #18
- Join Date: Jul 2010
- Location: Texas, United States
- Age: 61
- Posts: 4,703
- Rep Power: 4635
"this issue has nothing to do with protein. nobody implied fat will turn into protein. there was no need for either of you to start at all."
I certainly did interpret his question in that manner and I'm not completely convinced that isn't what he was asking, if he is simply asking if the body uses fat for fuel, well then I would think he would no the answer to that one. What tissue has nothing to do with protein? Not sure what you are referencing there.
ppl should take note that the amount of calories required to build new muscle is negligible compared to the calories expended during the training that stimulates it & the protein required to build new muscle is negligible compared to the protein required to rebuild what you simply tore down. this can easily be proven if you simply consider calorie content & protein content of 20lbs of muscle built over the course of a whole year with regards to daily requirements.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you said that the way you intended.
-
01-12-2012, 05:59 AM #19
- Join Date: Aug 2011
- Location: Maryland, United States
- Age: 58
- Posts: 1,959
- Rep Power: 1203
Two things:
1) I'd bet that close to 100% of the people who post this question are new to body building/weight training and are are overweight. The reason they ask the question is all over the 'net is bro-science about how you burn muscle before burning fat when on a diet. It has become an article of faith that you cannot lose excess bodyfat while increasing strength/mass. Hence the confusion.
2) The bro-science is not exactly correct. If you are a reasonably trim ectomorph trying to get cut for a competition, calorie deficits will result in some muscle loss, not a lot, but some. If you are in a famine, you will experience severe muscle loss. If you are like most of the people coming here asking the question, an endomorph carrying fifty pounds of blubber or more, the bro-science does not apply.
-
01-12-2012, 06:14 AM #20
I am about to finish my 21st week of Body Opus... duchaines badass CKD... and i can tell you it is possible!! and i have gone from 216 and 20.6+% body fat (171.5lbm) down to 200 at 12.6% body fat (174.8 LBM). Slow and accurate is how you acheive this..
21 weeks of keto is not for the weak at heart / i will continue down to >10% another several weeks out but i also plan to stay about the same body weight.
most guys say it cant be done mostly because they are unwilling to crunch numbers and stay consistant enough to acheive it. IMO you should try and acheive it yourself to see if it has any merrit for u.
-
-
01-12-2012, 06:27 AM #21
again i know the keto section is ---> that way... but in your second bullet point you talk about famine.. i wanted to point out the intristic hormonal cascade that happens in responce to starvation does exactly the oppisite of what u said. the body will begin to fracture fatcells to produce energy in the brain long before its willing to give up muscle. i think people are niave about this. in fact the once the body enters ketosis it begins to preserve muscle and evacuate fat for fuel. also its those same processes that can wind up killing you in the end.. as the longer you starve out your body and a the ketones become less and less available.. your mind signals strong emotions of satiety and comfort.. thus maybe helping starvation somewhat due to a lessend urgency to find food. ... this is a huge benifit to dieters looking to lose body fat.. but its also often discounted or overlooked because of certain myths about keto diets vs. other type diets.
jus sayin...
-
01-12-2012, 06:47 AM #22
-
01-12-2012, 06:59 AM #23
- Join Date: Jul 2010
- Location: Texas, United States
- Age: 61
- Posts: 4,703
- Rep Power: 4635
Good reply!
Protein turnover or degradation happens every second of everyday. When synthesis outpaces turnover, for instance through adaptation, then we would have net synthesis, (build muscle for instance) When the opposite is the case, well then, you get the picture.
As example, in micro gravity we know we loose muscle mass, but whether or not that is from increased degradation, or decreased synthesis is not well understood yet, that according to Dr. Fluckey, an expert in this subject. You can find his work, which focus' on protein synthesis, at pubmed and other locations. Good luck everyone!
-
01-12-2012, 07:14 AM #24
i realise what you wrote but only posted because ketosis is a bi-product (for lack of better term) of starvation.. and while us keto guys are famished... the processes i spoke of is do to famine / starvation. again not trying to get into any kind of war of words just trying to add to the conversation.
-
-
01-12-2012, 07:15 AM #25
Very interesting tread. Sometime in summer when is hot I just drink one protein shake + B complex and it is it for day and go work. My target is that beer belly that I can't reed of no matter what. After a few hours of work all suddenly like a switch I fill extremely tired and barely can walk. So body refuse to use beer belly fat for energy. Seems to me will rather fall unconscious then push body to use that fat. Translate in weight no matter what I do I can’t go below 200 pounds.
What now occur to me maybe I’m actually depleted of transmitters (glycogen or B complex or whatsoever) need to body to be capable use body fat for energy. As I saw this a lot advertised “5 hours energy” pills are B complex and not much more.
-
01-12-2012, 07:52 AM #26
-
01-12-2012, 08:48 AM #27
- Join Date: Jul 2011
- Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
- Age: 54
- Posts: 1,625
- Rep Power: 0
-
01-12-2012, 09:03 AM #28
-
-
01-12-2012, 09:48 AM #29
-
01-12-2012, 10:33 AM #30
Let's make this simple. The short answer is no, the long answer is yes.
At rest, your body will burn fat for energy if there's nothing else available (fasted).
During higher intensity exercise, your body will burn fat and muscle if there's nothing else available (fasted).
Regardless of exercise, your body will burn calories from the blood stream when fed. This is because blood insulin is high enough such that the liver has no need to secrete the enzymes that start gluconeogenesis (converting fat and protein into energy). Note - does not apply to ketosis. Also, for anaerobic exercise, stored energy in the muscles/leiver themselves supply the energy for the contractions.
Your body has zero reason to burn fat if energy can be gotten from food.B: 285
S: 375
D: 555
Similar Threads
-
Build muscle with no protein
By noaddedhormones in forum NutritionReplies: 36Last Post: 02-25-2011, 10:26 AM -
Possible for teen athletes to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?
By BoyBawang in forum NutritionReplies: 10Last Post: 11-19-2009, 10:15 PM -
How likely is protein to turn into fat? can protein be used as fuel when running?
By Behemoth93 in forum NutritionReplies: 13Last Post: 09-17-2009, 03:37 PM -
The Anabolic Diet and Athletes
By monatu in forum Sports TrainingReplies: 30Last Post: 04-10-2008, 07:23 AM -
unable to build muscle?
By qdogg290 in forum Workout ProgramsReplies: 44Last Post: 09-25-2004, 04:08 PM
Bookmarks