Your thoughts on D Aspartic Acid

[l2ambo]

Does it work? could I still call myself a natural?

[ArchangelEST]

Does it work? could I still call myself a natural?

I'd like for others to elaborate on this matter as-well. I have done minimal research into this, and basically just went over a few studies:

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774316/

I'll spare you my opinion, as it's a very amateurish overview based on very much incomplete knowledge on the subject.

[eazzy]

daa+erase is good for a natty cycle IMO

expect your libido levels to go through the roof though

good luck!

[ArchangelEST]

daa+erase is good for a natty cycle IMO

expect your libido levels to go through the roof though

good luck!

What's "erase" ? Unaware.

[PhiSig2298]

Human & rat study.. Haven't read the text yet but plan on it this evening

http://www.rbej.com/content/7/1/120

Hope it helps

[ErickStevens]

daa+erase is good for a natty cycle IMO

expect your libido levels to go through the roof though

good luck!

Erase = Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione

Looks natty.

[PhiSig2298]

I read a couple of reviews saying this stuff may cause a person to fail a drug test.. Although a lot of things could make you fail. Something to think about for those who may have to take tests at work, etc

[synthetic]

I read a couple of reviews saying this stuff may cause a person to fail a drug test.. Although a lot of things could make you fail. Something to think about for those who may have to take tests at work, etc

maybe if you take it in pill form - that is why there is powder of the pure amino acid.

[hankst]

Human & rat study.. Haven't read the text yet but plan on it this evening

http://www.rbej.com/content/7/1/120

Hope it helps

Concerning the effect of D-Asp on the induction of testosterone release, after 12 days of D-Asp treatment, the levels of testosterone in the serum of the participants were significantly increased compared with basal levels. Out of 23 participants, 20 had increased testosterone. From a mean of 4.5 ± 0.6 ng/ml serum at zero time, it rose to 6.4 ± 0.8 ng/ml, a 42% increase (Table 1). Statistical analyses indicated a significant effect [ANOVA with repeated measures: treatment effect: F(1,82) = 7.724, p < 0.0082] and a significant interaction between treatment and days [F(2,82) = 32.599; P < 0.0001]. As with LH, so also with testosterone, the effect of D-aspartate was time dependent. When subjects were treated with sodium-D-aspartate for only 6 days, testosterone was found of 1.15-fold higher than basal levels, but this increase was not statistically significant (Table 1). Interestingly 3 days after the suspension of D-Asp treatment, testosterone was still increased 1.22-fold compared with the basal levels (5.8 ± 0.6 ng/ml against 4.5 ± 0.6 ng/ml).

dose administered was 3.12g daily

brb ebay

Edit:
although the real world benefit should be minimal if it test still within physiological range...

Edit 2:
It's not that cheap.
Like 30€ a month. Hm.

Edit 3:
euro brosephs: bulkpowders.co.uk (if it's not allowed to link to online shops just tell me, and I will remove the link), 500g DAA for 32 GBP. Pretty good.

[ArchangelEST]

http://www.rbej.com/content/7/1/120

Edit:
although the real world benefit should be minimal if it test still within physiological range...

I linked that study in the first post also. - I think it's one of the few studies that appear to be done well enough, so most Supplement companies are citing it to push the D-aspartic acid supplementation.

Alright, I'll copy my initial AMATEUR discussion/review on that study results and the second one I posted about test. levels. You will see me ignore a lot of data and most likely mess something up or make assumptions that are ridiculous - but as I said, it's a quick review and I simply do not have the necessary knowledge to provide a Lyle or Alan level review without possibly days and days of additional research. (Which isn't a bad idea. )

Read the studies, or you won't likely get what I'm talking about, as I'm mostly just discussing the papers and the results, not actually reviewing.

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.long - Human study on test. dose response - Bashin et. al
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774316/ - Rat/human study on D-aspartic acid - Topo et. al



* Did not consider the possible potency from exogenous source of Testosterone to an endogenous increase (As I lack knowledge on this topic.. *

Okay, so I looked at the data a bit more closely on both studies. And It seems that perhaps some positive effects can be seen, though it's likely to be nigh-negligible and something you won't be able to measure from a personal perspective per say, though the actual effects are going to massively depend on your own natural test levels, exercise and food intake protocols and more.

The studies have great limitations. From a low time-frame, test groups as-well as food intake protocol limitations and more. So take everything below with a huge grain of salt - and Don't take anything to heart, as it's more speculation than anything else - based on just an hours worth of read into these two studies.


The study on D-aspartic acid was unfortunately short-term. Only 12 days before they cut it off. So I don't know if the values could have gone up even more. (Maybe it was in the study, but then I missed it)

So the baseline average values were higher for the Bashin Study when it came to testosterone levels.

4,5+-0.6 ng/ml or 450+-60 ng/dl for the Topo study and at about 570+-70 ng/dl in the other study. So that is a difference, though I'm not an expert in saying whether or not that's significant enough. But basically the people with the highest Test levels in Topo study barely reached the levels of the people with the absolute lowest Test levels in the Bashin study.

So D-aspartic acid lead to a mean increase of 6,4 ng/ml or 640 ng/dl from the baseline of 450 ng/dl. (variances were about the same at +-0,6 and 0,8 or +-60/80)

In the Bashin Study - The actual muscle mass increase was negligible in the 50mg injection. Which was weird, seeing as that resulted in the Test. levels dropping nearly 50%. (from about 550 to 300 ng/dl) I guess they were on a slightly hypercaloric intake - but I didn't see the actual bodyweight change numbers anywhere. Food intake was given, but not the actual full mass change. [I could have probably calculated it using their fat-mass and fat-free mass change numbers, but fuk it, too much work, lol](Also protein intake was on the borderline low at 1,2g per KG, or about 0,55g per LB - which is sad though)

The 125mg injection resulted in measurable change in muscle mass, though technically - that only every so slightly raised the Test. levels compared to baseline.(from 550 to 570 ng/dl - Or, not really significant) Which means that the actual muscle growth was most likely due to the hypercaloric intake, rather than the tiny increase in Test. levels. (Though obviously higher Test. levels positively influenced the muscle mass increase.)

Now as we moved on to the 300mg injections the value of increased testosterone became more clear (Test. levels jumped to about 1300ng/dl or basically doubled), as about 4lb of additional muscle was gained compared to the 125mg (which is basically baseline levels).

And when it came to 600mg injections, yet another such jump was seen and about 4lb more muscle was gained.(and test levels reached about 2400 ng/dl, or quadrupled compared to baseline)

But the relevant details here are the actual Test numbers and muscle mass correlations for both studies. Which indicate that D-aspartic acid effects are potentially there for muscle mass stimulation.

Basically with Topo study subjects being on the low end of the Test. level spectrum, It's possible they merely reached a more "natural high end" of their own potential, rather than increasing Test. levels beyond normal levels per say.

That said - such an increase would most likely still yield some benefit to muscle growth. Going from the baseline of about 560ng/dl to about 300ng/dl in the Bashin study - one group still managed to maintain their muscle mass. Assuming they were on a Hypercaloric intake, this isn't saying much though.
While staying near baseline made another group gain about 5lb of muscle. Which I'd consider to be about the average muscle mass increase in this study purely due to food intake protocols.

So when you take the Topo study which saw an increase from about 450ng/dl to 640ng/dl - I would expect there to be an increase in muscle mass growth or muscle retention.

I would say that if you are on a more naturally "low" end of the spectrum - you should experience a positive increase in muscle mass growth or muscle retention due to higher "natural range" Test. levels.

However, when it comes to stimulating muscle mass growth in those who are already near the high end - I'd imagine the difference to be very much smaller.

When flat out doubling (and a bit more) the Test. levels from 600ng/dl to 1300ng/dl we experienced a measly 4lb in 5 months, Going from let's say 600ng/dl to 800ng/dl (if it's even possible using D-aspartic acid), is going to yield very negligible results.
Though I'd expect the potential 1lb or so of muscle mass increase to still be important.

However none of this takes into account Exercise and Adequate Protein intake. All which play a major role as-well. Introducing both factors with near-optimal levels - might seriously influence the effects of Testosterone. And I can't even guess if it's going to completely mask and make it's importance negligible, or if it's going to work in unison so to speak to provide even greater and greater gains.

*** Bottom line: If you got the cash, it might be wise to get your test levels checked, and if low - It "might" be worth supplementing. If you are near the high end, it probably won't matter, though I would imagine that any athlete interested in absolute maximal results, might still want to supplement anyway. Even if it ends up providing a measly 1g of muscle in a month.

Increased sex drive is enough of a bonus to many, anyway.

So that's my preliminary take, without going into too much detail with the studies. It seems like an interesting subject though. And I'm looking forward to doing more research on this.
I have no doubt I messed something up. There were a lot of information comparison and speculation and all that, so I felt a little overwhelmed to be honest.

Still, I hope it was interesting to read. And I'd like to hear everyone elses opinions as well on this topic.

[PhiSig2298]

maybe if you take it in pill form - that is why there is powder of the pure amino acid.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/om...rtic-acid.html

"Warnings: Not to be used by women or men under 21 years old. Use of this supplement could trigger a failed drug test from various sports governing agencies. Although this is a completely all-natural product, elevation of testosterone levels can cause side effects including, but not limited to: acne, hair loss and swelling of breast tissue. Discontinue use and consult a physician if any adverse reactions occur. Do not use if you are being treated for or could develop any medical, psychiatric or emotional condition. Do not use in conjuction with any prescription drugs. Store in a cool, dry, dark place. Keep this and all supplements out of reach of children and animals."

Looks like its sports drug testing but still something to think about


Edit: Sorry for that repost Arc. I didn't see your study up there

[hankst]

Hm. This thread made me check my bloodwork from one and a half years ago. Just converted my free test from pg/ml to ng/dl, looked up physiological ranges - and realized that I have free test like a 65 year old (7.6 ng/dl). Which kinda makes sense, when I look at my progress.
Doc did not point that out. What do?

[ArchangelEST]

Hm. This thread made me check my bloodwork from one and a half years ago. Just converted my free test from pg/ml to ng/dl, looked up physiological ranges - and realized that I have free test like a 65 year old (7.6 ng/dl). Which kinda makes sense, when I look at my progress.
Doc did not point that out. What do?

Sure you did the conversions correctly? Just divide pg/ml with 10 to get ng/dl.

[hankst]

I'm European, and I'm a geek. I got SI units down, bish.

[surfeatliftsurf]

I did 4 weeks of DAA supplementation on a steady training routine with an exact macro split, controlled calories, good all around supplementation. My serum total test after the month was lower than my before numbers; it was still well in the normal range and I have no reason to believe it caused this, but there was no quantifiable increase.

I believe DAA is best used if you are attempting to correct a low-T situation. I don't have any personal evidence, nor have I seen a legitimate study that justifies its use in a naturally trained healthy individual.

And to anyone who thinks it's "not natty" or is going to pop you on a drug test, you are very far from the mark. Any labeling on the actual product is 100% marketing to make you think it will cause some wild swing in hormone levels. It is, in essence, a food supplement, not a drug.

The same cannot be said about PES Erase which is, for all intents and purposes, a "drug" in the most literal sense of the word.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post782866753

[ArchangelEST]

I did 4 weeks of DAA supplementation on a steady training routine with an exact macro split, controlled calories, good all around supplementation. My serum total test after the month was lower than my before numbers;

Interesting. What was your total when you started? Not exact numbers if you don't want to share, but was it in the High-range, middle or low?

What other supplements were included in that "good all around supplementation".

Just trying to get more pieces into the whole puzzle.

[Mr.Cooper69]

D-Aspartic Acid has been demonstrated to increase testosterone in healthy males.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774316/

Inb4 supplement rep

[ArchangelEST]

D-Aspartic Acid has been demonstrated to increase testosterone in healthy males.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774316/

Inb4 supplement rep

Boom. Third post of same study.

Guess that really is the only one floating around - or the only one ever done worth a damn.

[surfeatliftsurf]

Interesting. What was your total when you started? Not exact numbers if you don't want to share, but was it in the High-range, middle or low?

868 before, 663 after

What other supplements were included in that "good all around supplementation".

They're in the OP of that thread I linked but I had all the basics, nutrient rich diet from mostly whole foods, 6g fishoil, 6g flax seed, lots of fresh red meat, Source Naturals multi, BA, Creatine, PWO products, Policosanol, etc.

Just trying to get more pieces into the whole puzzle.

yeah, and obviously sample size = 1, so it's only my personal anecdotal experience. I may have had a "good" day when I did my before test because 868 is pretty damned good, all things considered, but I'm not convinced this stuff is really as good as everyone cracks it up to be.

That being said, if you buy in bulk from a discount website, it's just as cheap as creatine mono, so I guess there's no good reason not to give it a go and see how well it works for each individual.

[PerpetualMotion]

$20 for 100 servings @ 3g per serving is the cheapest I've seen. Seems like an avenue worth exploring for such a low price.

[surfeatliftsurf]

Another thought about DAA is its ability to affect the NMDA receptor in the brain. I'd be interested to see someone conduct a study on it in company with something like Huperzine-A and Sarcosine to gauge its effect on alzheimer's patients. Based on the available pubmed research I saw when planning my log, it looked like it had promise as a nootropic due to its ability to increase serum DAA levels across the blood brain barrier.

[deeAvi]

Erase = Androst-3,5-dien-7,17-dione

Looks natty.

things like inhibit-E, and erase by PES are considered Natty

https://www.google.com/search?source...se+natty+stack

[Cumulonimbus]

Even if it increases testosterone, does it push it beyond physiological ranges?

[Mr.Cooper69]

Boom. Third post of same study.

Guess that really is the only one floating around - or the only one ever done worth a damn.

Dude, when I posted this in the thread there were no posts except OP. Not sure what happened, srs.

PES Erase is NOT natty (do not take this if competing in natural shows). It is androgenic, but the dose is so low that it won't interrupt any hormonal pathways after ceasing use.

[ErickStevens]

things like inhibit-E, and erase by PES are considered Natty

https://www.google.com/search?source...se+natty+stack

Considered natty by who? A message board? LOL

[sawoobley]

Even if it increases testosterone, does it push it beyond physiological ranges?

^This

[midcoastking33]

Won't make enough of a difference to increase performance or muscle mass

[alan aragon]

Not enough human research examining relevant endpoints (body comp, training performance) to make any firm judgements. Worth a try for those with low T? Perhaps. I haven't dug into the logs of those who ran DAA & tested T levels before & after, but for those who have, are there any consistent increases seen - or is it just a mixed bag? Not too encouraging to see how T was actually lowered in Surfeatliftsurf after he tried DAA.

[ArchangelEST]

Even if it increases testosterone, does it push it beyond physiological ranges?

^This

That's the question isn't it. The study linked in this thread had test-subjects with rather low Test. levels as it was - so even though it was raised around 40%, it still didn't even come close to the possible high-end point that some people have without supplementation.

I'll dig around some more tomorrow and try to see if there is some more material out there.

Won't make enough of a difference to increase performance or muscle mass

Not noticeable difference anyway. But it still might make a difference. This one study only had a limited dose being tested in a very limited setting. So it's still very much open to future debate. Interesting to see if it's useful just to stimulate natural range Test. level production or is it capable of stimulating it beyond the normal range as well.

Not enough human research examining relevant endpoints (body comp, training performance) to make any firm judgements. Worth a try for those with low T? Perhaps. I haven't dug into the logs of those who ran DAA & tested T levels before & after, but for those who have, are there any consistent increases seen - or is it just a mixed bag? Not too encouraging to see how T was actually lowered in Surfeatliftsurf after he tried DAA.

Exactly. Have you looked into it with any detail? Are there worthy studies that you would recommend that are related to this topic?

Surfeatliftsurf N=1 experience is indeed disturbing. Though I'm not even sure how much Test. levels fluctuate acutely, might have been just an "off" time during the test.
Also considering that his Test. levels were definitely in the high-end, It's plausible DAA was unable to stimulate production beyond what is normally possible.

Definitely interested in someone providing some more N=1 information on this topic. Maybe doubling the dose with bloodwork done prior and after the test. I'll probably give it a shot myself, when I have the possibility to do the tests and get a cheap source of the stuff.

[Mr.Cooper69]

Please don't double the dose. As you said, N=1. I know many people who have had extremely positive bloodwork with DAA, and some who barely budged in their T levels. Don't exceed the 3g daily dose. If you do decide to get DAA, get Testforce 2 or Sodium D-Aspartic Acid.