bulking legs/butt. need advice!

[sweatisbeauty]

Ok...so i do squats. I do deadlifts...hip thrusts. I have yet to really see the gains I would like to...granted I havent gotten too far up there in weight yet. Just got cleared after knee surgery...so i was wondering what you guys do for this. What kind of split do you use and how many leg days per week are ideal for gains...


Squat:155
DL:185

Also...how long did it take you to really see gains?

[freebirdmac]

Ok...so i do squats. I do deadlifts...hip thrusts. I have yet to really see the gains I would like to...granted I havent gotten too far up there in weight yet. Just got cleared after knee surgery...so i was wondering what you guys do for this. What kind of split do you use and how many leg days per week are ideal for gains...


Squat:155
DL:185

Also...how long did it take you to really see gains?

It takes eating at a surplus and months. Your numbers are very good for your stats but how is your rom? Are you squatting below parallel? How many reps are you doing for each?

Time under load and increasing load builds muscle. Also your rep scheme comes into play. There are many ways to do this, twice a week, quad/ham split, etc. Best to get the basics down first. And give your knee time to be ready for heavier work.

[sweatisbeauty]

It takes eating at a surplus and months. Your numbers are very good for your stats but how is your rom? Are you squatting below parallel? How many reps are you doing for each?

Time under load and increasing load builds muscle. Also your rep scheme comes into play. There are many ways to do this, twice a week, quad/ham split, etc. Best to get the basics down first. And give your knee time to be ready for heavier work.

I go a little below parallel...I haven't mastered the atg squats yet. My quads see good growth...but my hamstrings and glutes always seem like they are playing catch up!
My reps....well...I must be honest. I never stay consistent because of frustration. Generally I do a couple warm up sets....then start loading on the weight for about 3-4 sets of usually 6 reps and slowly increase to my current max.

[freebirdmac]

I go a little below parallel...I haven't mastered the atg squats yet. My quads see good growth...but my hamstrings and glutes always seem like they are playing catch up!
My reps....well...I must be honest. I never stay consistent because of frustration. Generally I do a couple warm up sets....then start loading on the weight for about 3-4 sets of usually 6 reps and slowly increase to my current max.

Not going atg means you are not fully activating your hams and glutes. Forget the poundage. Drop the weight and go atg. Don't up the weight until you can do 3 solid sets of 10. Doing 6 reps is fine for strength. For size you really need to work in the 8-10 rep range. You might give zercher squats a go. They help you learn atg squatting and they may be easier on the knees.

[kimm4]

You might give zercher squats a go. They help you learn atg squatting and they may be easier on the knees.

Agreed, zerchers are great in helping you hit more ATG. Heavy goblet squats are another good option too. RDL's, goodmorings, reverse lunges (better for the knees.)

Lot's of options.

[CARRGRIFF]

I'm in the same boat as OP (kind of)! I've never been very athletic, but after I had my third child in June I decided it was time to get in reeeally good shape!

I've never had toned legs. I mean, not since I was a little kid. LOL! I've always been thin... or, skinny fat I guess it's called? Size 1, but jiggly legs, a flat ass, and a pinch of cellulite. Eww! Anywho... I am dying for nice legs and a great ass. My husband read a little bit of Starting Strength and thinks he's an expert. He's been helping me and has me doing squats (ATG) at one set of 10 for warm up, then 3 sets of my max weight at 5 reps each (if I can make it to 5). I've been doing Insanity and P90X mixed up since August. I have great results with that. Abs are starting to show and quads are getting better but not much improvement in the appearance of my ass or thighs.

[freebirdmac]

I'm in the same boat as OP (kind of)! I've never been very athletic, but after I had my third child in June I decided it was time to get in reeeally good shape!

I've never had toned legs. I mean, not since I was a little kid. LOL! I've always been thin... or, skinny fat I guess it's called? Size 1, but jiggly legs, a flat ass, and a pinch of cellulite. Eww! Anywho... I am dying for nice legs and a great ass. My husband read a little bit of Starting Strength and thinks he's an expert. He's been helping me and has me doing squats (ATG) at one set of 10 for warm up, then 3 sets of my max weight at 5 reps each (if I can make it to 5). I've been doing Insanity and P90X mixed up since August. I have great results with that. Abs are starting to show and quads are getting better but not much improvement in the appearance of my ass or thighs.

With your stats you definitely need more underlying muscle to get the look you want. Losing more body fat will make you smaller, but the same.

Starting strength is a good routine. However, 5 reps is not the proper rep range for your goals. Lower reps do build strength. Hypertrophy is optimal in the 8-12 rep range. Up the reps. Lower the weight. Eat at a surplus. Go browse the bulking thread in this general forum.

[twinklebeef]

Maybe it's just me but I've found that walking at an incline for 15-20 minutes once/twice a week helped me. I've particularly noticed it now that I've stopped doing it, some sagging going on...
Again, maybe just me

[sweatisbeauty]

Maybe it's just me but I've found that walking at an incline for 15-20 minutes once/twice a week helped me. I've particularly noticed it now that I've stopped doing it, some sagging going on...
Again, maybe just me

I'm gonna give all of this a try today. Its leg day! I am always excited to do more leg excersises. You guys are probably 100% right...I never feel a ton of glute activation. I feel it more on the leg press than in thr squat rack. Lol. It would be nice to have second opinions while I am actually in the gym....all the girls here just glare at you like you are retarded.
Zercher squats....never heard of them. Googling it!

[freebirdmac]

Maybe it's just me but I've found that walking at an incline for 15-20 minutes once/twice a week helped me. I've particularly noticed it now that I've stopped doing it, some sagging going on...
Again, maybe just me

Incline walking, stair climbing, bleacher runs, incline sprints... all activate the glutes. Bodyweight exercises will not build your body though. It would take daily workouts for years to really do something. Squat atg

[twinklebeef]

Stair climbing, I enjoyed that for a while, shoulda checked my ass, dam!
ATG dunno why but I forgot about doing them at all. I think I'll add them in to my current program, hit as much of my glutes as I can
Should benefit my bulk/strength targets

[Partyrocking]

I have always had small but strong glutes. I have had results w/ heavy hip thrusts- up to 245x10, heavy kettlebell swings- I got a t-handle and load it to 200lbs, high step ups around 60lbs, reverse hypers on a medicine ball, x-band walks, bird dogs, quadruped hip extensions. I do a bodyweight glute exercise at the beginning of my leg days (I do two a week)- do my main lift, either squat or deadlift, and later on do hip thrusts. I do kettlebell swings and the other exercises separate from my leg workout. Sometimes later on in the day. Sometimes other days. Your glutes are your biggest muscle. Hit them hard and hit them often. I couldn't do a lot at first, but I just add what I can every week.

[MommysFitLife]

Why, oh, why didn't I see this thread before I went to the gym today for leg day? I did not squat ATG and, in all honesty, it was my first day squatting on the squat rack. I'm going to try ATG and some of the other things mentioned in this thread!

[freebirdmac]

I have always had small but strong glutes. I have had results w/ heavy hip thrusts- up to 245x10, heavy kettlebell swings- I got a t-handle and load it to 200lbs, high step ups around 60lbs, reverse hypers on a medicine ball, x-band walks, bird dogs, quadruped hip extensions. I do a bodyweight glute exercise at the beginning of my leg days (I do two a week)- do my main lift, either squat or deadlift, and later on do hip thrusts. I do kettlebell swings and the other exercises separate from my leg workout. Sometimes later on in the day. Sometimes other days. Your glutes are your biggest muscle. Hit them hard and hit them often. I couldn't do a lot at first, but I just add what I can every week.

Nothing wrong with accessory exercises, especially if you feel your glutes aren't firing properly or you are bring up a lagging body part (glutes). But you can over do it. You are far better off doing compound leg movements and keeping your accessory exercises balanced. Your quads, hams, and glutes work together. Get out of balance and you're headed for an injury. No need to hit often. Newbies can work legs in general more often but it still goes back to balance.

[sweatisbeauty]

HEY BEAUTIFUL LADIES!

WOW! I did legs today and I must say....some of your suggestions really did bring it to a whole new level. Those Zercher squats (sp?) work wonders since I had so much of an issue going atg. I was able to go all the way down, hams touching calves on all sets! My butt is already sore I also tried the uphill walking....I used to hate on fast walkers...but today I learned it is not for the weak! It was a great warm up to my weight training. Did some 90lb hip thrusts and stuck within the 8-10 rep range. Good for building? I stretched a lot as well before because I think lack of loose muscles was a hinderance on my squat. This is all awesome advice!

[freebirdmac]

HEY BEAUTIFUL LADIES!

WOW! I did legs today and I must say....some of your suggestions really did bring it to a whole new level. Those Zercher squats (sp?) work wonders since I had so much of an issue going atg. I was able to go all the way down, hams touching calves on all sets! My butt is already sore I also tried the uphill walking....I used to hate on fast walkers...but today I learned it is not for the weak! It was a great warm up to my weight training. Did some 90lb hip thrusts and stuck within the 8-10 rep range. Good for building? I stretched a lot as well before because I think lack of loose muscles was a hinderance on my squat. This is all awesome advice!

Good job! You'll have to keep reminding yourself that full rom does more than upping the weights and shortening the rom. That can be a challenge for all of us. Ego wants more weight on the bar

[twinklebeef]

great news! im def gonna steal some of this tips and bung em into my workout.
my only issue is always wanting to lift more (more, more!) so i guess this all confirms that taking a step back should help me jump forward.
or words to that affect

[Partyrocking]

I've never heard of anyone getting hurt from having too strong glutes. Possible but not very feasible. Most muscles have opposites, chest/back, tricep/bicep, etc. here, balance is important because otherwise, you put torque on your joints, but glutes don't have an opposite. Strengthening them will improve posture, spare lower back and knees, increase power. They are used in compound moves, but not nearly to the extent that they are used when targeted, hich is why hitteng them in isolation is key.

[freebirdmac]

I've never heard of anyone getting hurt from having too strong glutes. Possible but not very feasible. Most muscles have opposites, chest/back, tricep/bicep, etc. here, balance is important because otherwise, you put torque on your joints, but glutes don't have an opposite. Strengthening them will improve posture, spare lower back and knees, increase power. They are used in compound moves, but not nearly to the extent that they are used when targeted, hich is why hitteng them in isolation is key.

Wrong. Your glutes are used for every lower body movement. Including knees. Glutes/hams/quads all work in conjunction with each other. No need to isolate the glutes at all unless you don't go low enough on squats or lunges (or don't do them or deads) or your glutes aren't firing properly and you need some assistance in rectifying that issue. Isolate all you want but you lose balance. It's like the guys at the gym who spend hours on biceps or the men and women who spend hours on abs. It's a waste of time and can lead to imbalances that can lead to injury.

[sweatisbeauty]

You are so right about wanting to pile on the weights lol! I see the guys in the gym squatting three times what I do and the last thing I want to do is send the signal that I am a p***y....but really all I was doing was decreasing rom and not getting full effect. Also, those other squats allow my back to stay more confidently straight than regular back squats do. I felt a lot of pressure on my hips....any insight to that? front of hips? Anyways, it wasn't an issue with the zerchers...I think my form is better with them. I felt a little self conscious about dropping weight but I didn't care the next day when I couldn't walk!!! lol.

[freebirdmac]

You are so right about wanting to pile on the weights lol! I see the guys in the gym squatting three times what I do and the last thing I want to do is send the signal that I am a p***y....but really all I was doing was decreasing rom and not getting full effect. Also, those other squats allow my back to stay more confidently straight than regular back squats do. I felt a lot of pressure on my hips....any insight to that? front of hips? Anyways, it wasn't an issue with the zerchers...I think my form is better with them. I felt a little self conscious about dropping weight but I didn't care the next day when I couldn't walk!!! lol.

Hard to say why you felt that pressure. Could have been a form thing. One thing about zerchers. You cannot lift as much doing them as you can back squats. It will always be a lower load.

[Partyrocking]

Wrong. Your glutes are used for every lower body movement. Including knees. Glutes/hams/quads all work in conjunction with each other. No need to isolate the glutes at all unless you don't go low enough on squats or lunges (or don't do them or deads) or your glutes aren't firing properly and you need some assistance in rectifying that issue. Isolate all you want but you lose balance. It's like the guys at the gym who spend hours on biceps or the men and women who spend hours on abs. It's a waste of time and can lead to imbalances that can lead to injury.

Do you have any proof of this? I have never heard of an injury from too strong glutes, where as I have heard of injuries from too strong quads, which makes sense because the imbalance causes a torque on the knees, using the same logic too strong biceps relative to triceps could cause a torque on the elbow. I know that glutes/hams/quads work in conjunction. That's not in dispute. What is in dispute is how too strong glutes would mess up your quads or hamstrings or anything else.

What exactly is the consequence of too strong glutes and who actually has done it? ACL injuries from too strong quads, relative to the hamstrings, are one the most common athletic injuries-therefore the risk of injury is significant, particularly if you play a sport where this is common. Nothing you posted has established that having too strong glutes would do anything specifically or that even if it could, that the risk of getting that strong is significant.

I disagree with everything you bolded. Your glutes are involved w/ squats, deadlifts, and lunges, but they are activated at a much lesser extend then when they are targeted directly. http://bretcontreras.wordpress.com/2...glute-secrets/
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...the_glute_myth

Reason to want stronger glutes include looking hotter, better sprinting, more power, better squatting, deadlifting, jumping, sparing lower back, transferring loads from your knees to your hips reducing your knees risk of injury, and all of these are reasons to do "isolations" even if you also do compounds. I have seen people hip thrust 400lbs, 500lbs, and none of them got too strong. I'm not saying to ditch all other training. I do compounds for my legs twice a week. I'm just saying that if you want an ass, then glute-specific exercises are ideal. And if you train appropriately, you shouldn't ever get to the point where your butt got too strong. I

[freebirdmac]

Do you have any proof of this? I have never heard of an injury from too strong glutes, where as I have heard of injuries from too strong quads, which makes sense because the imbalance causes a torque on the knees, using the same logic too strong biceps relative to triceps could cause a torque on the elbow. I know that glutes/hams/quads work in conjunction. That's not in dispute. What is in dispute is how too strong glutes would mess up your quads or hamstrings or anything else.

What exactly is the consequence of too strong glutes and who actually has done it? ACL injuries from too strong quads, relative to the hamstrings, are one the most common athletic injuries-therefore the risk of injury is significant, particularly if you play a sport where this is common. Nothing you posted has established that having too strong glutes would do anything specifically or that even if it could, that the risk of getting that strong is significant.

I disagree with everything you bolded. Your glutes are involved w/ squats, deadlifts, and lunges, but they are activated at a much lesser extend then when they are targeted directly. http://bretcontreras.wordpress.com/2...glute-secrets/
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...the_glute_myth

Reason to want stronger glutes include looking hotter, better sprinting, more power, better squatting, deadlifting, jumping, sparing lower back, transferring loads from your knees to your hips reducing your knees risk of injury, and all of these are reasons to do "isolations" even if you also do compounds. I have seen people hip thrust 400lbs, 500lbs, and none of them got too strong. I'm not saying to ditch all other training. I do compounds for my legs twice a week. I'm just saying that if you want an ass, then glute-specific exercises are ideal. And if you train appropriately, you shouldn't ever get to the point where your butt got too strong. I

Read some more of Brent's work. Strengthening your glutes, which is usually a lagging body part is fine. The contention comes from hitting them way too often and with too much focus. You pick your accessory exercises wisely. 1-2 accessories is all that's needed. The lesser if you are on an multi day full body routine. Go back to my original post on the subject. You can overdo it. You can create an imbalance that can lead to injury. You also can create an unbalanced physique. Brent talks about all of that. In the bodybuilding world it's not uncommon for women to have over developed upper glutes for example.

[twinklebeef]

On a much much lighter note, freebird, your body space looks h-amazing!
Considering your bulk doesn't make you look much different I can only assume that u are quite experienced at bulking/cutting??

[freebirdmac]

On a much much lighter note, freebird, your body space looks h-amazing!
Considering your bulk doesn't make you look much different I can only assume that u are quite experienced at bulking/cutting??

I have some experience. Unfortunately my food allergies/sensitivities have all but trashed my ability to bulk. One day I have got to update my pictures.

[rdferguson]

Not going atg means you are not fully activating your hams and glutes. Forget the poundage. Drop the weight and go atg. Don't up the weight until you can do 3 solid sets of 10. Doing 6 reps is fine for strength. For size you really need to work in the 8-10 rep range. You might give zercher squats a go. They help you learn atg squatting and they may be easier on the knees.

I'm gonna nit-pick here, but the bolded statement isn't entirely accurate. If you can understand why the combination of hip and knee angles in RDLs makes them great for glutes and hamstrings, then you have all the anatomical knowledge to understand why ATG =/= full activation of glutes and hamstrings. Whatever squat variation you do, your hamstrings will hit their peak activation at parallel. Good ATG squats are still about parallel, they just have the knees a lot further forward (which, btw, takes tension off the hamstrings). Going past parallel requires further knee flexion, and is generally associated with the hips coming forwards and the back becoming more vertical than it was at parallel. The increased knee flexion in the eccentric deloads the hamstrings, and the back reaturning to a more upright position means the hips aren't doing much more flexion, so there's not much tension being added to either the glutes or hamstrings at the hip end. The squat that will give the most hamstrings and glute activation is the squat that gets the most movement at the hip and the least movement at the knees (this combination is what makes RDLs and goodmornings great for glutes and hamstrings) in order to reach parallel, which is usually going to be something closer to a super-low-bar sumo squat -- as many powerlifters use -- than an ATG squat.

[dreahere]

The squat that will give the most hamstrings and glute activation is the squat that gets the most movement at the hip and the least movement at the knees (this combination is what makes RDLs and goodmornings great for glutes and hamstrings) in order to reach parallel, which is usually going to be something closer to a super-low-bar sumo squat -- as many powerlifters use -- than an ATG squat.

This is really interesting to me, because it explains in anatomical detail what I feel in my own body. I've always squatted with a quite wide stance just because that what feels best/natural for my hips, and right from the get-go I noticed squatting only gave me glute/hammie/adductor DOMS and didn't feel like they hit my quads at all. It was actually why I added in Zerchers. I needed some kind of front squat to get more work in for my quads.

[Romina81]

good mornings are so good for hamstrings I think I actually like them better than rdls...sore today from doing them yesterday

[freebirdmac]

I'm gonna nit-pick here, but the bolded statement isn't entirely accurate. If you can understand why the combination of hip and knee angles in RDLs makes them great for glutes and hamstrings, then you have all the anatomical knowledge to understand why ATG =/= full activation of glutes and hamstrings. Whatever squat variation you do, your hamstrings will hit their peak activation at parallel. Good ATG squats are still about parallel, they just have the knees a lot further forward (which, btw, takes tension off the hamstrings). Going past parallel requires further knee flexion, and is generally associated with the hips coming forwards and the back becoming more vertical than it was at parallel. The increased knee flexion in the eccentric deloads the hamstrings, and the back reaturning to a more upright position means the hips aren't doing much more flexion, so there's not much tension being added to either the glutes or hamstrings at the hip end. The squat that will give the most hamstrings and glute activation is the squat that gets the most movement at the hip and the least movement at the knees (this combination is what makes RDLs and goodmornings great for glutes and hamstrings) in order to reach parallel, which is usually going to be something closer to a super-low-bar sumo squat -- as many powerlifters use -- than an ATG squat.

Peak activation *during squats* occurs below parallel. Emg studies have shown wide and low generates the most response. That is not to say that the hams and glutes are not being used in a lessor rom or a lessor stance. Just that they are not reaching max activation. Quads on the other hand reach their max activation at parallel.

You're bringing in other isolation exercises and mixing apples and oranges. This wasn't about isolation exercises. This was about over working one body part.

[rdferguson]

Peak activation *during squats* occurs below parallel. Emg studies have shown wide and low generates the most response. That is not to say that the hams and glutes are not being used in a lessor rom or a lessor stance. Just that they are not reaching max activation. Quads on the other hand reach their max activation at parallel.

You're bringing in other isolation exercises and mixing apples and oranges. This wasn't about isolation exercises. This was about over working one body part.

Peak activation *during squats* occurs for hamstrings when the balance between knee flexion and hip flexion puts the greatest stretch on the hamstrings. For glutes, knee angle is irrelevant, since the glutes don't attach to the tibia, but knee angle is crucially important for hamstrings. The greater the knee flexion, the less pull there is on the hamstrings caused by hip flexion. The less the knee flexion, the more pull there is on the hamstrings from hip flexion. It's that simple.

I would wager that any EMG study showing that lower = more activation for hamstrings as an absolute fact is achieving higher squats simply by cutting off the ROM prematurely, which is not how you squat properly. A shallower squat requires a different movement pattern than a deeper squat, and vice versa.

I don't see that I'm comparing apples to oranges; I am, however, stating anatomical facts. This is how the hamstrings work. They don't operate on one set of principals for squats and another for more isolated exercises. I'm using other exercises to demonstrate this anatomical fact. Isolation or not is an irrelevant issue -- the muscles don't know isolation vs compound exercises; they do know when they're being lengthened, shortened and put under load. Structurally, that's all that matters.

For glutes, the greater the hip range of motion the better, but again, deeper squats don't always equate to greater hip ROM. I used very low bar sumo squats commonly performed by powerlifters as an example earlier of squats that are chosen largely for their glute and hamstring involvement. Now I'll use olympic style squats, since these are squats that are generally done very ATG. Olympic squats are performed as upright as possible. This minimises hip ROM throughout the lift. The lifters who are best built for olympic lifting tend to have bodies that, once in their lifting shoes, allow them to keep such an upright torso and drive their knees so far forwards that they'll get to ATG and still be slightly above parallel, or only just reaching parallel, as bizarre as that may sound. Their squats are almost entirely quadriceps. There's a huge knee ROM, and a relatively small hip ROM. Their hamstrings take a minimal load, their glutes work more as stabilisers than prime movers, and the load is primarily taken by their quadriceps. I realise I'm using extreme examples here, but it's to make a point. I'm not saying that ATG can't be peak glute and hamstring activation in a squat, btw, I'm saying that deeper isn't always better for glutes and hamstrings, because it's not about total squat ROM, it's about ROM of the hamstrings and glutes.