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  1. #1
    Registered User TheLTrain44's Avatar
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    Delay Onset muscle soreness

    Is muscle soreness an indicator of a good workout. And does it mean an increase in strength? Every time i'm sore i always come back with a stronger lift.
    Last edited by TheLTrain44; 12-05-2011 at 08:47 PM.
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    Registered User Fgenetics15's Avatar
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    DOMS has nothing to do with size/strength
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  3. #3
    Fear Not Failure vollric's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheLTrain44 View Post
    Is muscle soreness an indicator of a good workout. And does it mean an increase in strength? Every time i'm sore i always come back with a stronger lift.
    It definitely means you gave your muscles a good workout, as your muscles tear during workout and then repair during recovery they'll grow to be stronger, its like a cut on your finger, once its healed the skin is stronger and more resistant in that area.
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  4. #4
    Registered User TheLTrain44's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vollric View Post
    It definitely means you gave your muscles a good workout, as your muscles tear during workout and then repair during recovery they'll grow to be stronger, its like a cut on your finger, once its healed the skin is stronger and more resistant in that area.
    I have always been told that and some people have told me other wise but when I think of it myself everytime im ever sore I always comeback with a stronger bench press squat etc. I just needed somebody elses opinion to really stop thinking about it.I figure its kind of like a broken bone it comes back stronger from calcium buildup.
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  5. #5
    Fear Not Failure vollric's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheLTrain44 View Post
    I have always been told that and some people have told me other wise but when I think of it myself everytime im ever sore I always comeback with a stronger bench press squat etc. I just needed somebody elses opinion to really stop thinking about it.I figure its kind of like a broken bone it comes back stronger from calcium buildup.
    Also if you work-out and don't experience DOMS it doesn't mean you didn't get a good workout either, as long as your focusing on your muscle contractions and staying consistent with your program, you'll make good progress. I do understand what ya mean thou, I get frustrated when I don't get DOMS cause I go hard every time I lift lol.
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  6. #6
    I'll Mod Til I'm Dead ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheLTrain44 View Post
    Is muscle soreness an indicator of a good workout. And does it mean an increase in strength? Every time i'm sore i always come back with a stronger lift.
    You can have a productive workout and never experience DOMS. You can get increasingly stronger and never experience DOMS.

    While 'soreness' can be a good indicator of which muscle(s) did some work, it's not an accurate forecaster of mass/strength increase.

    Your current "soreness = progress" is likely due to your being relatively new to consistent training.

    What is really important to mass/strength increase is progression; work to increase the weight and/or reps lifted with good form on a week-to-week basis. This is the engine that drives growth, not 'soreness.'
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  7. #7
    you mirin bacne?? bonacris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    You can have a productive workout and never experience DOMS. You can get increasingly stronger and never experience DOMS.

    While 'soreness' can be a good indicator of which muscle(s) did some work, it's not an accurate forecaster of mass/strength increase.

    Your current "soreness = progress" is likely due to your being relatively new to consistent training.

    What is really important to mass/strength increase is progression; work to increase the weight and/or reps lifted with good form on a week-to-week basis. This is the engine that drives growth, not 'soreness.'

    Great post ^^^^

    Came in to post something like this... your body will adapt to deal with the DOMS.. most people new to exercise experience DOMS for the 1st few months and think it is necessary to show they are progressing..
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  8. #8
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    Typically I experience doms if I start a new routine or after a few days off - however, after a few "repeated bouts" its gone until the next break or shift in exercise.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    You can have a productive workout and never experience DOMS. You can get increasingly stronger and never experience DOMS.

    While 'soreness' can be a good indicator of which muscle(s) did some work, it's not an accurate forecaster of mass/strength increase.

    Your current "soreness = progress" is likely due to your being relatively new to consistent training.

    What is really important to mass/strength increase is progression; work to increase the weight and/or reps lifted with good form on a week-to-week basis. This is the engine that drives growth, not 'soreness.'


    Absolutely true.

    DOMS is still largely an unknown of what's going on physiologically but we do know what causes it:
    eccentrics in an unfamiliar range of motion or load.
    So tests will often ask participants to walk backwards down a hill to bring doms on rather reliably

    here's an overview of what it is and
    http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/09/dom...yed-onset.html

    here's an overview of what to do about it
    http://www.begin2dig.com/2009/09/dom...-works-to.html


    But the biggie: it is not necessary for progressing muscle growth - at all - since we adapt to that movement quite quickly.

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  10. #10
    Registered User handyman89's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    You can have a productive workout and never experience DOMS. You can get increasingly stronger and never experience DOMS.

    While 'soreness' can be a good indicator of which muscle(s) did some work, it's not an accurate forecaster of mass/strength increase.

    Your current "soreness = progress" is likely due to your being relatively new to consistent training.

    What is really important to mass/strength increase is progression; work to increase the weight and/or reps lifted with good form on a week-to-week basis. This is the engine that drives growth, not 'soreness.'
    righto!

    If your doing some sort of split like i do I only target certain muscles once a week so when I train them that one day a week it usually gets sore for a couple days due to the long resting period!
    also proper "nutrition" ensures you are getting the most from your workout make sure your eating properly to help those muscles grow and heal! you will come back even stronger and stronger
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  11. #11
    Registered User TheLTrain44's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by handyman89 View Post
    righto!

    If your doing some sort of split like i do I only target certain muscles once a week so when I train them that one day a week it usually gets sore for a couple days due to the long resting period!
    also proper "nutrition" ensures you are getting the most from your workout make sure your eating properly to help those muscles grow and heal! you will come back even stronger and stronger
    I have trained for years and i am still doing the same exercises and getting sore so clearly the muscle is not becoming sore from adaptation. Which makes me believe that the only logical explanation is that the exercise is clearly doing something beneficial even after being used to the movement. I have gains in strength almost every time I get sore as well.
    "No Pain No Gain" If it feels good you aren't doing it right.
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  12. #12
    Registered User TheLTrain44's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bonacris View Post
    Great post ^^^^

    Came in to post something like this... your body will adapt to deal with the DOMS.. most people new to exercise experience DOMS for the 1st few months and think it is necessary to show they are progressing..
    I have trained for years and i am still doing the same exercises and getting sore so clearly the muscle is not becoming sore from adaptation. Which makes me believe that the only logical explanation is that the exercise is clearly doing something beneficial even after being used to the movement. I have gains in strength almost every time I get sore as well.
    "No Pain No Gain" If it feels good you aren't doing it right.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by TheLTrain44 View Post
    I have trained for years and i am still doing the same exercises and getting sore so clearly the muscle is not becoming sore from adaptation. Which makes me believe that the only logical explanation is that the exercise is clearly doing something beneficial even after being used to the movement. I have gains in strength almost every time I get sore as well.
    Yes, but what is your frequency? Usually you can avoid DOMs by training a muscle more frequently, at least I have experienced this myself and a few other people tend to agree as well. This is not to say you should train more frequently.
    “Go back?" he thought. "No good at all! Go sideways? Impossible! Go forward? Only thing to do! On we go!" So up he got, and trotted along with his little sword held in front of him and one hand feeling the wall, and his heart all of a patter and a pitter.”
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    Registered User Jolts's Avatar
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    So basically from reading all these posts nobody really knows if soreness is directly tied to strength/muscle gains? Personally I tend to feel a bit down when I have no soreness after squats ><
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    Originally Posted by Jolts View Post
    So basically from reading all these posts nobody really knows if soreness is directly tied to strength/muscle gains? Personally I tend to feel a bit down when I have no soreness after squats ><
    It is not directly tied to strength/ or muscle gains.

    I don't get sore at all, even with crazy volume, but that is because of my frequency, squats 3 times a week, everything else 2x a week. The body adapts. If I take a week off, I do get sore.
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    near-failure reps will make you very sore

    just do a bunch of those(5-10) if you want it.
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    DOMS doesnt mean you had a good workout, typical "bro science". DOMS is the pain you feel 24-48 hours after a workout, due to Eccentric muscle actions. Eccentric muscle actions cause tiny tears in the microscopic structure of sarcomeres, which cause fibers to degenerate which can lead to strength loses for days. Soreness originates from this tissue damage, resulting in swelling and an inflammatory response by white blood cells, which release chemicals that activate pain receptors. There aren't any treatments proven to prevent DOMS. Just to clear everything up..
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  18. #18
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    DOMS is not a requirement for strength and size. This is confirmed with anecdotal evidence.

    However,

    This does not mean that there's valid proof DOMS does not have a contributing element.

    Wrong statements:
    DOMS is required for strength/size
    DOMS has no relation to strength/ or muscle gains.
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  19. #19
    digger mc-'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Orlando1234977 View Post
    DOMS is not a requirement for strength and size. This is confirmed with anecdotal evidence.

    However,

    This does not mean that there's valid proof DOMS does not have a contributing element.

    Wrong statements:
    DOMS is required for strength/size
    DOMS has no relation to strength/ or muscle gains.
    actually, the links to research i posted above make it pretty clear that DOMS is NOT required for adaptation - or has a clear role viz adaptation.

    no anecdotatl evidence; just research.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post792611073

    One will feel sore from doing eccentrics that are either in a new range of motion, load of volume; that soreness is distinct from strength/size responses.

    In other words, we don't know entirely what causes hypertrophy; we don't know entirely what the mechanisms of DOMS are. We do know however a bit about what gets triggered in each. They are separate processes. It's like saying over six months of working out my hair got longer and my arms grew bigger, therefore my hair growing caused my strength gains.

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    Originally Posted by Orlando1234977 View Post
    Wrong statements:
    DOMS is required for strength/size
    DOMS has no relation to strength/ or muscle gains.
    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    actually, the links to research i posted above make it pretty clear that DOMS is NOT required for adaptation - or has a clear role viz adaptation.
    Do you want to read what I wrote above again and then decide if your sentence contradicts?

    DOMS is not required for growth.

    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    In other words, we don't know entirely what causes hypertrophy; we don't know entirely what the mechanisms of DOMS are.
    Then why are you saying/implying that there is proof that there's no relation?

    Actually we do know that hypertrophy processes are tension based, stress based and damage based. And we know that DOMS has a relation to muscle fiber damage.

    By saying that there's definitively NO relation is just as bad as saying it is a requirement.
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    Originally Posted by Orlando1234977 View Post
    Actually we do know that hypertrophy processes are tension based, stress based and damage based. And we know that DOMS has a relation to muscle fiber damage.

    By saying that there's definitively NO relation is just as bad as saying it is a requirement.

    excuse me for lack of clarity here: i was not contradicting you but supporting much of what you said. my point is that there is more than anecdotal evidence: there's quite a lot of research around doms. but what its role is in hypertrophy or not is at best not clear.

    My goal was also to refine the assertion around the type of relationship between doms and hypertrophy. Just as growth can occur without doms, it seems the converse is also true: doms can be present without growth or the type of fiber damage that necessitates adaptation.

    in other words,
    Does DOMS reflect damage to muscle fibers that seem to trigger an adaptation response? Not necessarily: one can have a DOMS response without satelite cells being triggered for repair/growth; biopsy of muscles after DOMS induction does not always show fiber damage.

    DOMS it *seems* is brought on by a calcium leak that as said may be present with muscle "damagae" or not.

    Likewise, as you note, muscle growth can be triggered without DOMS

    My point is that DOMS, based on what we know now, is more a co-incidence with muscle growth than a correlated part of the cause of hypertrophy.

    best
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    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    excuse me for lack of clarity here: i was not contradicting you but supporting much of what you said. my point is that there is more than anecdotal evidence: there's quite a lot of research around doms. but what its role is in hypertrophy or not is at best not clear.
    True, both anecdotal and scientific eved., DOMS is not required for growth.

    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    My goal was also to refine the assertion around the type of relationship between doms and hypertrophy. Just as growth can occur without doms, it seems the converse is also true: doms can be present without growth or the type of fiber damage that necessitates adaptation.
    Good point


    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    in other words,
    Does DOMS reflect damage to muscle fibers that seem to trigger an adaptation response? Not necessarily: one can have a DOMS response without satelite cells being triggered for repair/growth; biopsy of muscles after DOMS induction does not always show fiber damage.
    But again, "Not necessarily", doesn't prove that it never triggers an adaptive response.

    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    Likewise, as you note, muscle growth can be triggered without DOMS
    True.

    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    My point is that DOMS, based on what we know now, is more a co-incidence with muscle growth than a correlated part of the cause of hypertrophy.
    True to an extent, and I'm definitely not saying it's the cause, I'm saying we can't prove it's never contributionary.

    In other words,

    Cardio is not a requirement for fat loss.
    However, based on that, we can't conclude that cardio has no relation what so ever to fat loss.
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    Originally Posted by Orlando1234977 View Post

    Cardio is not a requirement for fat loss.
    However, based on that, we can't conclude that cardio has no relation what so ever to fat loss.
    i love your spirit here, and i see your point. It's very well reasoned.

    THe analogy is certainly approximate, but not quite the same, tho, is it, because we actually do know a lot more about the mechanisms of fat loss than we do about hypertrophy: that if we elevate our heart rate, we burn more calories: we can measure this. All things being equal, cardio's relation to fat loss is as an engine that contributes directly to using up fuel -cRph, carbs, fat, protein (gluconeogenisis kicking in) or lactate, and that as long as that work is part of nudging a deficit, rather than not (cuz someone eats up all the calories they burn), weight loss will occur.

    After this we just get into a debate about what kind of heart elevating activity we're doing for optimizing fuel burning and types of strength adaptations, eh?

    does that seem a fair distinction to you?

    very nice chatting with you,

    best
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    Originally Posted by mc- View Post
    i love your spirit here, and i see your point. It's very well reasoned.

    THe analogy is certainly approximate, but not quite the same, tho, is it, because we actually do know a lot more about the mechanisms of fat loss than we do about hypertrophy: that if we elevate our heart rate, we burn more calories: we can measure this.
    You're still not completely understanding my point. To refute a claim that A (say DOMS or in the analogy, cardio) has no Relation to B (say hypertrophy or in the analogy, fat loss), does not require proving that there is a relation. It requires proof that there is no relation. To require proof that there is no relation, we'd have to know ALOT about the mechanisms involved, so by claiming we don't know enough, doesn't help your claim. True?

    Edit: And to be fair to you MC-.. you didn't actually even make that claim I don't think, at least not initially (that we can say with certainty that there's no relation), but you replied to my post implying to support it, so you personally might not even be debating that. I'm not disputing any of your actual findings if that makes sense.
    Last edited by Orlando1234977; 12-13-2011 at 12:27 PM.
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