Cant make squat progress

[chuckiechuck]

I am looking for a little help with squats. I just cannot make adequate progress. A little history first:

35yrs old
210 lbs (lots of extra fat these days)
I havent lifted consistently until recently for 5 years (I have a 5 year old boy, lol)
5 years ago I had a 325 lb bench for 5 reps
cant remember my other lifts from 5 years ago but they were all in line except for squats
5 years ago I only squatted 225lbs which was not proportionate to my other lifts
When I started lifting years ago in my 20's i could barely bench 95lbs (I was skin and bones)

Currently:
I am using Starting Strength to get back in the swing of things (I am only 6 weeks into lifting after my long break)
All lifts (except squat) are maturing nicely (added 65% to just about everything in 6 wks)
Diet is not great but not bad enough to be the culprit (getting plenty of calories and protein)
My form is good for the style of squat I am doing (high bar back squat, no shoes, feet parallel at shoulder width, ATG deep squat, ass out, back arched not rounded)

Please any suggestions you have might help. Is it genetics, poor choice of squat style, I just dont know?

[chuckiechuck]

I am looking for a little help with squats. I just cannot make adequate progress. A little history first:

35yrs old
210 lbs (lots of extra fat these days)
I havent lifted consistently until recently for 5 years (I have a 5 year old boy, lol)
5 years ago I had a 325 lb bench for 5 reps
cant remember my other lifts from 5 years ago but they were all in line except for squats
5 years ago I only squatted 225lbs which was not proportionate to my other lifts
When I started lifting years ago in my 20's i could barely bench 95lbs (I was skin and bones)

Currently:
I am using Starting Strength to get back in the swing of things (I am only 6 weeks into lifting after my long break)
All lifts (except squat) are maturing nicely (added 65% to just about everything in 6 wks)
Diet is not great but not bad enough to be the culprit (getting plenty of calories and protein)
My form is good for the style of squat I am doing (high bar back squat, no shoes, feet parallel at shoulder width, ATG deep squat, ass out, back arched not rounded)

Please any suggestions you have might help. Is it genetics, poor choice of squat style, I just dont know?

Oh yeah, current lifts:

Overhead press 135 lbs
Bench 200 lbs
squat 180 lbs
Deadlift 255 lbs
bent over row 135 lbs

[kinggorilla]

a video would give everyone a better idea of possible form modifications.
im guessing u have pretty long legs.
if that is the case,ppl with longer thighs have to lean forward more because theres ass is much further behind there feet.
try a lower bar placement and maybe a bit wider stance.
sorry thats all i got.

[.aeterna]

whats your diet like? are you getting enough rest?

following SS to the T?

and...videos of your lifts?

[chuckiechuck]

My diet is ok, I could lay off the simple carbs a bit more and eat more vegetables. I eat frequently and plenty. I am following SS to a T. Will be moving to Bill Starr intermediate soon. I unfortunately do not have any vids (no camera to record). I am 5'11", average height. Squats have always been a weak point for me. I did make steady progress in the past using the Bill Star int, but I started at a low weight so I could never get ahead. It seems like 2-3% weekly is all I can add to the bar even though SS dictates adding more. My goal is to try and sort out this issue before I am binded to a 2% increase weekly with the Bill Starr program. Like King Gorilla said, I suspect the low bar, wider stance squat might be the answer. I'll find out on Monday if it helps. I am just worried because I have biceptal tendinitis in my right shoulder. It does not bother me now, but I heard low back squats can cause issues.

[.aeterna]

at ur ht/wt, id say theres a long way you can go with SS before moving onto the next step

do you have a cell phone? record vids and repost them back here. my guess is its a technical issue where your squat/bench/dead are not as efficient and sound as you think they should be.

[chuckiechuck]

at ur ht/wt, id say theres a long way you can go with SS before moving onto the next step

do you have a cell phone? record vids and repost them back here. my guess is its a technical issue where your squat/bench/dead are not as efficient and sound as you think they should be.

Aeterna: Good point about the cell. I'll see if I can get someone to record for me next time at the gym.

In regards to my lifts, I am not having any problems with progress for any of my lifts other than squat. As far as sticking with SS, at my age I'm happy with the 2% weekly increases that comes along with the Bill Starr program. It gives me a added feeling of security that I am less likely to get injured with the moderate but steady progression. In addition, I like the added structure the program provides.

[Heavy_Beats]

What is your reason for using inferior squat technique? If you are using inefficient technique that is the first thing to fix.

Your other lifts are currently pretty low so I can tell you only just started with starting strength, a few months of hard work will do you good on that program.

[BigJon55]

My diet is ok, I could lay off the simple carbs a bit more and eat more vegetables. I eat frequently and plenty. I am following SS to a T. Will be moving to Bill Starr intermediate soon. I unfortunately do not have any vids (no camera to record). I am 5'11", average height. Squats have always been a weak point for me. I did make steady progress in the past using the Bill Star int, but I started at a low weight so I could never get ahead. It seems like 2-3% weekly is all I can add to the bar even though SS dictates adding more. My goal is to try and sort out this issue before I am binded to a 2% increase weekly with the Bill Starr program. Like King Gorilla said, I suspect the low bar, wider stance squat might be the answer. I'll find out on Monday if it helps. I am just worried because I have biceptal tendinitis in my right shoulder. It does not bother me now, but I heard low back squats can cause issues.

Just warm up your shoulders well, then do some curls with a light weight and lift your elbows up high at the peak of every rep (not to develop your peak) do this to warm up the origin of the long head of the biceps where the biceps tendon will become inflamed. If you perform a standard curl without pulling your elbows up high at the end of each rep you will mostly warm up the insertion of the biceps which obviously won't help your shoulder much.

[chuckiechuck]

@ Heavy: I was not aware I was using an inferior technique. Then I came across some westide barbell info last night that got me thinking about what I am currently doing. Like I said, it has been about 5 years since I was active in the gym last. 5 years ago my research indicated my technique was right, but that was a long time ago.

[chuckiechuck]

Just warm up your shoulders well, then do some curls with a light weight and lift your elbows up high at the peak of every rep (not to develop your peak) do this to warm up the origin of the long head of the biceps where the biceps tendon will become inflamed. If you perform a standard curl without pulling your elbows up high at the end of each rep you will mostly warm up the insertion of the biceps which obviously won't help your shoulder much.

Thanks. Good info about the warm ups. I never thought about warming up my shoulders prior to squatting. Thats probably how I got the tendinitis in the 1st place.

[.aeterna]

i wouldnt worry too much about which technique (high bar vs low bar) is superior to another. there are extremely strong raw lifters in both categories

the key it to try both, and find what works best for you. which begs the question, have you tried low-bar?

[chuckiechuck]

i wouldnt worry too much about which technique (high bar vs low bar) is superior to another. there are extremely strong raw lifters in both categories

the key it to try both, and find what works best for you. which begs the question, have you tried low-bar?

I have never tried low bar. As a matter of fact, the first time I squatted years ago, I started with high bar without putting much thought into it. I can see the arguments for both so I plan on giving it a try this monday with a wider stance.

[IzzyT]

You're not doing Starting Strength. One of the most important aspects of Starting Strength is the loading parameters. You're not following them so you can't expect the tremendous results that almost everyone else gets. I'd have to question if you've even read the book at this point? Your technique style and your overall program applications make it seem like you've only read random posts and stickies. The book is invaluable and will change your training permanently.

Not trying to be a dick, but when you do starting strength, you should select a start weight where only the 5th rep is challenging. Because that is too subjective, just have someone watch until you hit a weight where the 5th rep of the set has clearly slowed down from all the other sets you've done first. After that, for a man of your size, for at least the first six workouts, and probably more like nine or ten, you should be adding 10lbs PER workout. There is no added safety from going slower. If you are performing the movements correctly and not lifting through pain, you are fully recovered and going slower is only wasting your valuable training time.

For example, I went from 205 to 355 by 10 with SS. My training partner went from 155 to 275. My 14 y/o little brother went from 135 to 205. When he got done with track season, he went from 185 to 245. All of this happened BEFORE we started going by 5s let alone 2%/wk.

If you don't want to train optimally because it truly does make you feel more comfortable, that is your choice, but don't use broscience and faulty logic to justify it.

[djartek]

Squat not numbers not going up is are most likely a result of one or more of the following issues:
- Flawed Technique
- Poor posterior chain development and or recruitment
- Hamstrings and Glutes are underdeveloped
- Flexibility or Mobility issues
- For lack of a better term your core-abs, lower back, etc. are weak.

Fix your mobility issues here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123273471
Fix your posterior chain issues, by developing the muscles you don't see in the mirror, back, ass, hams etc.
Build your core by doing seated good mornings, decline situps, leg raises, hyper-extensions.
Activate your glutes and hams before you squat with bands, or unilateral body weight movements: lunges, Bulgarian squats, hip bridges.
Technique: High bar or low bar is completely up you post a video to have your technique analyzed.

[chuckiechuck]

You're not doing Starting Strength. One of the most important aspects of Starting Strength is the loading parameters. You're not following them so you can't expect the tremendous results that almost everyone else gets. I'd have to question if you've even read the book at this point? Your technique style and your overall program applications make it seem like you've only read random posts and stickies. The book is invaluable and will change your training permanently.

Not trying to be a dick, but when you do starting strength, you should select a start weight where only the 5th rep is challenging. Because that is too subjective, just have someone watch until you hit a weight where the 5th rep of the set has clearly slowed down from all the other sets you've done first. After that, for a man of your size, for at least the first six workouts, and probably more like nine or ten, you should be adding 10lbs PER workout. There is no added safety from going slower. If you are performing the movements correctly and not lifting through pain, you are fully recovered and going slower is only wasting your valuable training time.

For example, I went from 205 to 355 by 10 with SS. My training partner went from 155 to 275. My 14 y/o little brother went from 135 to 205. When he got done with track season, he went from 185 to 245. All of this happened BEFORE we started going by 5s let alone 2%/wk.

If you don't want to train optimally because it truly does make you feel more comfortable, that is your choice, but don't use broscience and faulty logic to justify it.

Hey there seatlebro. I am doing SS. You shouldn't make assumptions about my weight progression. I following SS to a T as far as thats concerned. When I started I added 20lbs to deadlift a workout, 10 lbs to squat, and 5-10 lbs on the other lifts per workout. Then went to 50% of that after 2-4 weeks depending on the lift. Now I'm adding 5 lbs a workout to bench, 5 lbs to rows, 2.5 lbs to overhead press, 7.5-10 lbs to deadlift, and unfortunately having issues with squat progression (the purpose for this thread) only adding 5 lbs a workout. You must remember as mentioned in my earlier posts, I am 35 years old. NOT IN MY 20'S ANYMORE! I have responsibilities and stress in my life that MOST in their 20's wont understand. I will admit that it might be a little premature to go to the 5's this early, but I have not made that a final decision yet. So please lets stay on topic (SQUATS).

So if your not trying to be a dick, dont be one in the first place. It does not make me feel uncomfortable to train optimally, I like it and I do it. But again training optimally for a 35 year old homeowner with a 5 year old son with autism is much different than someone in their 20's.

[IzzyT]

There are people in their 50s and 60s who the run program just fine (startingstrength.com; go to the elderly section). 35 is not old. I'm glad you've assumed that I can't understand the complexities of life at 20. You might consider that there are plenty of 20 year old with jobs, who go to school, and who either have children or take care of them.

What you're saying is bull**** and, though I may be a dick for pointing it out, I think the truth is better than telling someone what they want to hear. I see these posts about SS "not working" or "being stalled" on every strength board I visit and the problems are always the same. The poster hasn't actually read the book, they aren't using proper squat technique and think they are (because if you are squatting high bar, you aren't doing the program; if you're doing rows, you aren't doing the program), they aren't eating enough (doesn't seem to apply to you), and they want to believe they have some extenuating circumstance that causes their lack of progress (or are simply mystified and can't figure it out).

Read Starting Strength (a new edition just came out) and take the knowledge you gain from the book and I guarantee you'll be using two plates as a warm-up within the month. I'm not exaggerating.

Good luck with your training, bro.

[chuckiechuck]

There are people in their 50s and 60s who the run program just fine (startingstrength.com; go to the elderly section). 35 is not old. I'm glad you've assumed that I can't understand the complexities of life at 20. You might consider that there are plenty of 20 year old with jobs, who go to school, and who either have children or take care of them.

What you're saying is bull**** and, though I may be a dick for pointing it out, I think the truth is better than telling someone what they want to hear. I see these posts about SS "not working" or "being stalled" on every strength board I visit and the problems are always the same. The poster hasn't actually read the book, they aren't using proper squat technique and think they are (because if you are squatting high bar, you aren't doing the program; if you're doing rows, you aren't doing the program), they aren't eating enough (doesn't seem to apply to you), and they want to believe they have some extenuating circumstance that causes their lack of progress (or are simply mystified and can't figure it out).

Read Starting Strength (a new edition just came out) and take the knowledge you gain from the book and I guarantee you'll be using two plates as a warm-up within the month. I'm not exaggerating.

Good luck with your training, bro.

I'll just chalk it up to the fact that you know everything! Again I am making good progress using SS EXCEPT FOR SQUATS. So the help I need is with squats Chief! Everyone is different and has different physical abilities. I make the best of what I have and have and am doing a good job with it. Oh, and I dont think there are many people out there that will say that subbing bent over rows for power cleans is a bad thing. So please tell what I am doing that isnt in line with making good progress other than considering going to 5x5 too soon. OR ARE YOU JUST BEING A TROLL!

[isaku900]

I'll just chalk it up to the fact that you know everything! Again I am making good progress using SS EXCEPT FOR SQUATS. So the help I need is with squats Chief! Everyone is different and has different physical abilities. I make the best of what I have and have and am doing a good job with it. Oh, and I dont think there are many people out there that will say that subbing bent over rows for power cleans is a bad thing. So please tell what I am doing that isnt in line with making good progress other than considering going to 5x5 too soon. OR ARE YOU JUST BEING A TROLL!

He's not being a troll.


...you're starting to sound like you are, but whatever. A 180lb squat = you're doing something (most likely everything) wrong.

[.aeterna]

the quicker you get videos of your heaviest sets, the quicker we can rule out a technical problem.

if the form is solid, then comes

diet
recovery/rest

and last comes (and very rarely is it this); programming issues.

[justroberson]

high bar back squat, no shoes, feet parallel at shoulder width, ATG deep squat

Switch to low bar, wear shoes for god's sake(Olympic or Chuck Taylors), feet should not be parallel like this- l l, they should be pointed at angle like this- \ /, SS does not teach ATG, it teaches to go below parallel.

I notice even though you've defended yourself as "doing SS to a T," you've been silent on whether or not you've read the book. If that's the way you're squatting, then I bet you don't own it. So YNDTFP. So get it, read it, fix your form on squat- probably on everything else too.

[IzzyT]

Re: Subbing Barbell Rows for Power Cleans in SS

This isn't only directed at OP, but I feel like it is a common enough misconception about the program, because of the SS sticky in the teenbodybuilding section, that it is something I want to respond to.

For whatever misguided reason, many have assumed that Power Cleans are included in SS for "athletes". First of all, strength athletes are still athletes. More importantly, Power Cleans are not "only for athletes" nor are they "upper back builders". Sure, it is true that if you are able to display your strength more quickly, which will show itself as an improved Power Clean in SS, you're likely becoming a better athlete. And, sure, it is true that power cleans, properly performed, can help develop your traps and upperback to some extent. However, the inclusion of power cleans in SS comes down to the fact that power cleans FORCE an individual to apply their strength as quickly as their current level of adaptation allows. Power Cleans are included in SS as speed work.

Speed work is important in powerlifting, athletics, and general function for a variety of reasons. Just in terms of real life, you don't always have the luxury of being able to push against something for an infinite amount of time. In some activities, such as sprinting, you have a limited amount of time to be able to transfer force into the ground. I apologize for being redundant, but, to reiterate, by including the power clean, an athlete will develop his capacity to display his strength quickly.

For powerlifters and general strength trainees, speed off the floor helps create momentum that allows heavier weights to be locked out in a deadlift. Some methods take speed work a lot farther and lifters have seen tremendous results in doing so. Rip himself has personally said that he believes he would have been a better lifter had he been aware of Westside methods during his prime.

Back to the point, using heavier weights in the deadlift will result in a stronger posterior chain. When squatting low-bar, improving posterior chain strength will have tremendous carryover to the squat.

Improved squat performance is the primary goal of Starting Strength because, if you read the book, it is argued that all strength begins from the core and most movements generate power from hip extension. The barbell squat is the one of the only, and arguably the most effective, way to train hip extension through a full range of motion using very heavy weights. Theoretically, the gains in this style of squat carry over to most of life's most common and/or athletic activities: running, jumping, throwing a punch, pushing something, pulling something, or maybe something as simple as just getting off the couch and toilet.

So, if you are dead set on not power cleaning because you are one of those wussy ass people who is scared of a 45lbs and a pair of 5lbs or 10lbs bumper plates, and you don't believe you can learn how to clean on your own because random guys on the internet told you so, it still makes no sense to substitute cleans for barbell rows. Sure, rows "balance" all of the pressing in SS. Sure, rows are a great whole-body exercise and they certainly serve the function of building an upperback a lot better than cleans do. However, these were never the goals of the power clean in the first place. The purpose of including cleans was to have an measurable way to improve power output in a linear manner.

If you were going to substitute an exercise, because you hate cleans for whatever misguided reason, or maybe you just don't want to clean, a more appropriate substitute would be speed pulls. A speed deadlift serves the same function. In my opinion, for powerlifting, it is even likely to be more appropriate. That said, people do speed pulls wrong. They put too much weight on the bar and end up doing light deadlifts instead of actually doing speed work. With cleans, the beginning lifter is FORCED to pull as explosively as possible and this is why Rip included them ahead of speed pulls, sprinting, box jumps, or something else you may typically think of as an exercise to help display strength and develop power.

Additionally, keep in mind, if you are doing the program correctly, you should be alternating chinups and pullups with your pressing exercises. Those who claim that pressing every workout without some kind of pulling is poor for shoulder girdle health are correct. That said, they are incorrect in assuming that SS doesn't address these concerns; it does. You are suppose to do at least as many chinups and pullups as presses.

[SQUAT316]

I'll throw out a few ideas. SS is an excellent program, but I think its more for lifters in their 20's, single, etc. As a family man, I would squat ONCE A WEEK. Sort like 5/3/1. But for you I think just a simple, linear progression would fine for you. Say squat Monday, add 5lbs every week, or even 1lb each week. If you feel you need more volume add a 2nd day like Thursday....a light day. 80% of Monday. As for fat, calorie control and go for walks. I would also do some form rolling, and mobility work before lifting. Again, just ideas. Good luck.

[C0bra]

I'll throw out a few ideas. SS is an excellent program, but I think its more for lifters in their 20's, single, etc. As a family man, I would squat ONCE A WEEK. Sort like 5/3/1. But for you I think just a simple, linear progression would fine for you. Say squat Monday, add 5lbs every week, or even 1lb each week. If you feel you need more volume add a 2nd day like Thursday....a light day. 80% of Monday. As for fat, calorie control and go for walks. I would also do some form rolling, and mobility work before lifting. Again, just ideas. Good luck.

I have to respectfully disagree.....anyone at any age can benefit from starting strength.....especially when their lifts are so low to begin with, much like the OP

EDIT: and with his squat being extremely low at only 180 lbs he is obviously doing something wrong.......like others said, if he was really following SS to the T he would be repping 225 in no time at all

[SQUAT316]

I have to respectfully disagree.....anyone at any age can benefit from starting strength.....especially when their lifts are so low to begin with, much like the OP

EDIT: and with his squat being extremely low at only 180 lbs he is obviously doing something wrong.......like others said, if he was really following SS to the T he would be repping 225 in no time at all

Cobra, OP is 35 with a family. Maybe he can do all the SS lifts 3x. MAYBE, as he is stuggling with the squat. Not end of the world to step back and just squat ONCE a week. Like other said, post video. Is it a form issue? Can it be the type of shoe he wears to lift in? Sometimes when is older with family, one has train differently. The premise of any program is poundage progression. OP can make progression squatting 1x a week or 7x a week ala Broz. Only OP can find out.

[MakeABanana]

How many calories are you getting from your diet? (just curious)

[chuckiechuck]

Switch to low bar, wear shoes for god's sake(Olympic or Chuck Taylors), feet should not be parallel like this- l l, they should be pointed at angle like this- \ /, SS does not teach ATG, it teaches to go below parallel.

I notice even though you've defended yourself as "doing SS to a T," you've been silent on whether or not you've read the book. If that's the way you're squatting, then I bet you don't own it. So YNDTFP. So get it, read it, fix your form on squat- probably on everything else too.

Thanks for the feed back (especially with the feet placement). I did read the book, however it was over 6 years ago. It seems there was some attrition of knowledge over those years. I gave it to my little brother. It looks like its time to get it back.

I do remember the "YNDTFP" abbreviation and I know there are some issues with my squat (reason for my post) and will post a vid this week (likely tomorrow).

As for my other lifts, I am certain they are right. I am making great progress with them and feel strong when doing them. I am adding the prescribed amount of weight per workout to the other lifts. They are not perfect, because nothing is perfect. But I am working on form improvement every lift I make.

[scorpionsf]

this thread is useless without a video

[chuckiechuck]

How many calories are you getting from your diet? (just curious)

I dont have the time to calculate calories every single day, but I do make it a point to keep track at least 2x a week. My meals and portions are mostly the same each day so there is very little fluctuation each time I make a count. I am always between 2900 and 3100 calories a day. Sure, i would like to have a few more calories in the day. With my job (low-no physical requirement) and the fact I have no other major physical exertion during the day other than the gym, I should be fine with it.

[chuckiechuck]

this thread is useless without a video

Please see post #27.