RPN Havoc / IBE Epistane for the newbies !

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 01:50 AM

What is Havoc/Epistane ?

Epitiostanol
2a,3a-epithio17a methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane
2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

What is the ratio Anabolic/Androgenic ?

1100% as anabolic and 91% as androgenic as plain methyl-test. (Vida)

I am under 21 years, Can I use Havoc/Epistane ?

No, you are too young. It is a steroid. You could mess up your endocrine system for life.

I heard that Havoc/Epistane could get rid of my gynos ?

Please stop searching solutions on a message board for your gynos and see a doctor. This is a steroid, dont use that to clear gynos. I repeat see your doctor.

Does Havoc and Epistane are the same thing ?

Yes

So which one should I get ?

You should buy it from :

1) The company you trust the most.
2) The company with the better customer service
3) The company who brought it to the market
4) The company that sell it at the best price

I made my choice but it isn’t my job to tell you which one to choose here.

Does Havoc/Epistane is liver toxic ?

Yes, it is. Be careful when you are using any 17aa Methyl PS.

Does Havoc/Epistane require a PCT?

Like every androgens, YES, it needs a PCT ( See below to know what you need for it)

What are the possible side effects from ? Thanks Krzna for this one

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krzna

Prostrate Pain: Common symptoms of prostate problems are frequent or difficult urination, dribbling when urinating, erection difficulty, and pain in that general area. Either a rise in estrogen or DHT levels from increased testosterone, etc., probably causes this. If you have ongoing prostate issues, it' s best not to use prohormones.
Herbal treatments:
Saw Palmetto Extract - Usual dosage is 320mg , precycled for 2 weeks prior to cycle
Beta sisterol or plant phytosterols - 300mg several times daily
Flax seed oil - anywhere from 5-20 tblspoons daily

Prescription Treatments:
Proscar/Propecia – Prop is great to keep on hand if hair loss is a side, I will deal with this next.
Hair Loss:
This is another famous side that is experienced by people using ph’s. Here are a few products I would strongly recommend.
Spironolactone 5% ( on cycle)
spiro and nizoral and azeliac acid.
I would highly recommend Fina and Propecia in the mix if you have hair shedding problems. If you do have Androgenic alopecia, and a genetic balding pattern, I would highly advise you not to risk this compound.
Acne: One of the most common sides of using androgens and supposedly the most dreaded. Here is why, Androgen production stimulates sebaceous glands and cause them to enlarge.. The androgen-stimulated sebaceous glands produce more sebum. Sebum is a natural oil that makes the skin soft and waterproof. The oily sebum accumulates in the follicle as it moves up the hair shaft where it mixes with normal skin bacteria (Propionibacterium Acnes) and dead follicular skin cells. The dead cells normally get pushed to the surface where they are expelled. The more sebum is produced the greater the chances of clogged follicles that potentially result in pimples.

How to combat it :
High doses of Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5) are highly effective at reducing oil production in the sebaceous glands (the glands responsible for the skin’s oiliness). It is generally recommended that the you preload with 5-10 grams of Pantothenic Acid per day for one week, followed by a maintenance intake of 2-3 grams per day until cessation of the cycle. In addition, cleansing the skin with salicylic acid and/or benzoyl peroxide (found in many over the counter acne treatments) is quite helpful for acne prevention.

*Testicular atrophy a.k.a my balls are shrinking :Yes, this is a common side effect of using any prohormone. However this is nothing to worry about. Under normal circumstances, you will get back to your normal size after the PCT. I am not a great fan of ATD, hence my thoughts lean to the safer old school clomid therapy.
Incase of extreme cases the following can be tried.
Day 1 Clomid @ 300mg
Week 5 Clomid @ 100mg
Week 5/6 Clomid @ 50mg

To the best of my knowledge this has cured most cases of testicular atrophy.

*Puffy nipples, soreness aka gyno
Most people are paranoid about gyno. Any number of AI products including Ultrahotter are available in the market today. So are prescription drugs such as Cytadren and Arimidex. Too much Cytadren or especially Adex will prevent gyno and probably a little water bloat, but it will also cut into your muscle gains by virtue of a less robust GH burst activity and lower subsequent IGF-1 levels.Some androgens increase muscle satellite cells sensitivity to fibroblast growth factor and IGF-1. IGF-1 is critical to get maximum anabolic activity from androgens. This means that androgens that increase GH production (i.e. those that aromatize to some degree) will most likely give you the greatest and most rapid gains in muscle mass.

*Nose Bleeds and Elevated Blood pressure.
PP being androgenic may increase blood pressure via a number of pathways. Though this condition may be more severe for some than it will be for others, those concerned may find Hawthorn Berry Extract of aid—300mgs-500mgs should do the trick. However, Hawthorne Berry does take 2 full weeks to kick in. Hence preloading is highly recommended. If one encounters a situation where in an immediate remedy is called for, then Celery Seed Extract at a high dosage can be used.
CoQ10 is also a very important support supplement to this cycle. CoQ10 is a fat-soluble nutrient found throughout the body, and is a vital player in the production of ATP. Exogenous CoQ10 may help to stabilize blood pressure due to its positive effects on the heart’s pumping ability, to name but one of its benefits. Typically, 30mgs 2-3 times per day are required to elicit a response.

What is the dosage for a good cycle ?

For newbies :
Week 1 : 10 mg
Week 2 : 20 mg
Week 3 : 20 mg
Week 4 : 30 mg

For people who already used PH/PS in the past :
Week 1 : 30 mg
Week 2 : 30 mg
Week 3 : 30 mg
Week 4 : 30 mg

Pulse cycle : I personally don’t recommend it but Dr.D does so I will put it here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phat Daddy

Well epi actually stimulates LH initially because of it's anti-e activity (or at least doesn't suppress it based on studies of it's free alcohol) so if you pulse which simply means dosing EOD or 2on/2off depending on how you work out, that allows for 3-4 doses/wk without shutdown. I think to be absolutely safe and get maximum bounce-back in test levels, dose only 3x/wk and never on consecutive days, and you can reap the benefits of some extra anabolism, test production, anti-gyno effects, etc. without needing any cycle support like liver supps or PCT meds later. I use to do this with dirty compounds like dbol and methyltest as a kid, so there's no reason it shouldn't work extra well with something like Epi! There are more suggestions I've posed in regard to this on the Epi forum at IBE and lots of guys are choosing this option for their Epi use so check out the forum there for more detailed protocols and info. People are logging right now with nothing but great feedback so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phat Daddy

Dosing something to intentionally avoid long term sides, such as HTPA suppression and liver damage. With pulsing, the serious, long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect, like acne and mineral retention, are milder that usual. This allows for higher dosages to be used. Basically, if you dosed on an ED basis you would get 100% effect, 100% short term sides and 100% long term sides. If you dose EOD on a pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect, 75% short term sides but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and the wallet too! Of course if you would have gained 10lbs this means you will only gain 6lbs pulsing, but it also means you can do this for 2 or 3 times longer than a normal cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12lbs instead of 10lbs over twice the time frame with less sides and a milder PCT requirement if even needed at all. It's a great long term strategy and good for newer users looking to run fast, clean, cycles for 1 month with no PCT needed later. That's how I perfected it. There are two basic approaches to do it: EOD or 2on/2off depending on your workout schedule. Doses can be high (30-40mg) but take them close together preferably before 6pm (1 dose pre and 1 dose post-w/o instead of spread out like normal) or doses can be lower (10-20mg) if you want to stretch it to 2 or 3 months instead of just 1. Dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4.

For advanced users different cycles are possible but I will not elaborate on it because you already know what you are doing.

Can I add any PH/ PS to my cycle ?

No, Havoc/Epistane is already strong enough alone. If you want to add something absolutely consider this :

Avoid all 17 aa methyl PS like superdrol, M1T, Halodrol, DMT…

Check for 4ad (The real one) (600-900 mg oral) or DHEA (100-200 mg)

Here is a comment from Dr.D about the use of DHEA :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phat Daddy

Yeah, it's a solid approach. The only issue I can see is possible excess androgeny. 200mg DHEA/day is amazingly androgenic to me. It makes my skin break out more that 600mg of TE/wk would. Epi has a fairly potent androgenic effect too so stacking the two would boost gains but may cause acne or mild headaches or that sort of thing. Or maybe not, it would be a worth a try and you could adjust the doses of each if you developed sides.

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 01:51 AM

What supps should I use on cycle ?

ThermoLife Liver Longer : 2 caps/day
Anabolic Innovations Cycle support : 2 scoops/day
Sesamin : 1g / day
Taurine : 2-3g /day
Potassium : More than 1 g/day
Cissus Quadrangularis : 2 g/ day ( Joints ache could be a problem with Havoc/Epistane on cycle)

Why not use GMS, creatine or NO booster on cycle ?

GMS will cause terrible back pumps and no need for pumps on cycle
Creatine : Could cause back pumps also.
NO Booster : Too much pump in the gym arent useful, it will only limit your workout. Pumps from Havoc/Epistane are already crazy anyway.

What is the best PCT for Havoc/Epistane ?

There is no perfect PCT. There is so much debate on this board about it that nobody will ever have the last word on it. I will post a sample of PCT then post a few links about debates on other supps to add.

1) Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate) or Fareston (Toremifene Citrate) * :
Week 1 : 40 mg (Tamoxifen citrate) or 120 mg or 120 mg for 4 days then 90 mg(Toremifene Citrate)
Week 2 : 40 mg (Tamoxifen citrate) or 90 mg (Toremifene Citrate)
Week 3 : 20 mg (Tamoxifen citrate) or 60 mg (Toremifene Citrate)
Week 4 : 20 mg (Tamoxifen citrate) or 30 mg (Toremifene Citrate)
2) ThermoLife Ebol
Week 1 : 6 caps
Week 2 : 6 caps
Week 3 : 6 caps
Week 4 : 6 caps
3) Designer Supplements Lean Extreme or SNS Reduce XT
Week 1 : 3 caps
Week 2 : 3 caps
Week 3 : 3 caps
Week 4 : 3 caps
4) Basic supps like BCAA,Whey, BA, CM and Creatine
5) Anabolic Innovation Cycle support
Week 1 : 1 Scoop
Week 2 : 1 Scoop
Week 3 : 1 Scoop
Week 4 : 1 Scoop

Other possible supps :

1) Aromotase Inhibitor like ATD, 6-Bromo and 6-OXO **
2) Test boosters or adaptogens like Tribulus, Avena Sativa, Maca root, Rhodiola Rosea ( Good help to boost libido during the PCT)
3) Nettle root product like DS Activate ***

* There are different approaches and researches about SERM in PCT. TAM and TOR have each one some advantages. I recommend to read about it. Also, they are research chemicals so you have to know where to get them. Don’t ask for sources.

** The use of an AI during PCT is a legendary debate on BB.com. Read this thread and choose who you believe: Dr.D, Big Cat or PA.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...t=delayed+gyno

*** Nettle root also has created a debate between Dr.D and Big Cat. Check the same thread.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...t=delayed+gyno

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 01:54 AM

Disclaimers :

1) English isn't my first language so please give me a chance for the structure, the syntax and the spelling.

2) I am not working for RPN or IBE.

3) This thread is my opinion about Havoc/Epistane, I only wish it could helps someone on the board.

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 01:55 AM

RPN reps or IBE reps feel free to post your write-up or other FAQ in this thread if you want. I didnt find them yet.

Please avoid shameless pimping.

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 02:00 AM

BTW, I know that no newbie at all will read it but at least I tried to help them !

warriors · 02-09-2007, 02:13 AM

Not bad for a Canadian

Nice write up bloute...seriously

TinyMan · 02-09-2007, 02:15 AM

Jeez Bloute, yet another subject I have no idea about

. Great writeup though... I learned some stuff just on a first reading of it.

dan7681 · 02-09-2007, 02:17 AM

Very good write up Bloute, Reps when I get a chance

RenegadeRows · 02-09-2007, 03:48 AM

Good writeup.

mmowry · 02-09-2007, 09:35 AM

Very good job.This will help with the scattered info problem!

BillyB · 02-09-2007, 09:41 AM

Very nice.

UberBerzerker · 02-09-2007, 09:45 AM

Nice work, Bloute even if you are a filthy Canadien!

SupaNatural · 02-09-2007, 09:48 AM

browndustin · 02-09-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warriors

Not bad for a Canadian

Nice write up bloute...seriously

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmowry

Very good job.This will help with the scattered info problem!

Agreed. Good stuff, man.

How does it feel to be back in Canoodia? You missed the poutine, Loonies and shenanigans, didn't you. More importantly though, how were the Russian ladies??? (you were in Russia, right?)

big8guy · 02-09-2007, 10:04 AM

Good stuff man! reps

Elliptical Envy · 02-09-2007, 10:17 AM

Nice job on the information Bloute.

sublimejeh · 02-09-2007, 10:21 AM

Nice job Bloute!

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warriors

Not bad for a Canadian

Nice write up bloute...seriously

Canadians rock ! Didn't you know that ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinyMan

Jeez Bloute, yet another subject I have no idea about

. Great writeup though... I learned some stuff just on a first reading of it.

Lol, Tiny you are too often at school. You should be more on the board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan7681

Very good write up Bloute, Reps when I get a chance

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmowry

Very good job.This will help with the scattered info problem!

I wish so. Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyB

Very nice.

I used some infos you post too. You are a good source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberBerzerker

Nice work, Bloute even if you are a filthy Canadien!

I know you all love canadians specially Quebekers

Quote:

Originally Posted by browndustin

Agreed. Good stuff, man.

Thanks

How does it feel to be back in Canoodia? You missed the poutine, Loonies and shenanigans, didn't you. More importantly though, how were the Russian ladies??? (you were in Russia, right?)

Great to be back in Canada, I missed Poutine so much !

Girls in Russia were crazy

and vodka too !

Quote:

Originally Posted by envythahustla

Nice job on the information Bloute.

That's why I am your hero

Quote:

Originally Posted by big8guy

Good stuff man! reps

Quote:

Originally Posted by sublimejeh

Nice job Bloute!

Thanks guys !

browndustin · 02-09-2007, 10:47 AM

I want to meet some nice Russian ladies… lucky, guy!

BTW, I have a question! I have a pouch of AI Cycle Support and some TL Liverlonger on the way. Should I use the Cycle Support on cycle, and the Liverlonger during PCT or swapped around?

Not sure when I’ll do a ph cycle again, if ever. But epistane/havoc really interests me and even the half bottle of SD I have beckons to be used. I’m definitely in no rush though. Just wondering what someone from TL would suggest.

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browndustin

I want to meet some nice Russian ladies… lucky, guy!

BTW, I have a question! I have a pouch of AI Cycle Support and some TL Liverlonger on the way. Should I use the Cycle Support on cycle, and the Liverlonger during PCT or swapped around?

Not sure when I’ll do a ph cycle again, if ever. But epistane/havoc really interests me and even the half bottle of SD I have beckons to be used. I’m definitely in no rush though. Just wondering what someone from TL would suggest.

Use Liver Longer on cycle for sure. No need for it during PCT. If you want to save money you can drop to 1 scoop of cycle support on cycle but I would recommend 2.

Twin Peak · 02-09-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloute

Disclaimers :

1) English isn't my first language so please give me a chance for the structure, the syntax and the spelling.

2) I am not working for RPN or IBE.

3) This thread is my opinion about Havoc/Epistane, I only wish it could helps someone on the board.

Impressive.

I was wondering about the odd sentence structure, what is your first language, french? I never knew....

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twin Peak

Impressive.

I was wondering about the odd sentence structure, what is your first language, french? I never knew....

Lol, I am working on my structure and syntax for my graduate studies but it is really tough. Yes, it is french. I am from Quebec !

browndustin · 02-09-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloute

Lol, I am working on my structure and syntax for my graduate studies but it is really tough. Yes, it is french. I am from Quebec !

Thanks for answering my question

I hear that you Frenchies have some killer curds over there!!!! Damn, now I’m really craving a poutine. I haven’t had one in ages!!!

Bloute · 02-09-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browndustin

Thanks for answering my question

I hear that you Frenchies have some killer curds over there!!!! Damn, now I’m really craving a poutine. I haven’t had one in ages!!!

Lol, you are right about this Dustin.

About the Poutine I will ship you one by fed-ex.

kappaz · 02-09-2007, 11:41 AM

Does anyone agree with Dr. D's "Pulse cycle"

jcilla26 · 02-09-2007, 11:43 AM

Good post. very valuable. reps

jsweetness · 02-09-2007, 11:47 AM

nice thread....wish i could rep sorry bro. and yes youve enlightened atleast one ph noob lol.

sonicology · 02-09-2007, 11:58 AM

great post Bloute, now I have something to link to when newbies come in asking questions about havoc/epi

reps! (on recharge, you must spread some reputation etc)

391rippy · 02-09-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by browndustin

I want to meet some nice Russian ladies… lucky, guy!

BTW, I have a question! I have a pouch of AI Cycle Support and some TL Liverlonger on the way. Should I use the Cycle Support on cycle, and the Liverlonger during PCT or swapped around?

Not sure when I’ll do a ph cycle again, if ever. But epistane/havoc really interests me and even the half bottle of SD I have beckons to be used. I’m definitely in no rush though. Just wondering what someone from TL would suggest.

definitely use liver longer during cycle to PREVENT liver problems. cycle support would be good to use during cycle for it's ingredients that will help your lipids and blood pressure

Skigazzi · 02-09-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kappaz

Does anyone agree with Dr. D's "Pulse cycle"

Really depends on the half-life of the compound, something with a 6-8 hour half life it might be plausible since by the end of the first 'day off' blood levels would be in the 3mg range (or less)...while this number would rise a little each ‘off day’, it would peak at I’m guessing 5-6mg (I didn’t make a spreadsheet for this..but I might). Shutdown probably would be very mild in this scenario.

If it has a half life of say 12 hours, blood levels at the end of the first ‘day off’ would only drop down to about 7-8mg, and ‘off day’ levels would probably be something like 12mg at their lowest through the cycle…Id think shutdown and others sides would occur almost like normal in this scenario.

If its more than 12 hours, forget it, the compound simply won't clear out fast enough for pulsing to be a benefit.

Based on Dr.D being Dr.D, Im betting this has a short half life and that pulsing would be fairly effective at preventing total shutdown.

This should work with any steroid with a short half life.