compound versus isolation exercises

[robefc]

I've copied and pasted this from another message board - an interesting thread basically arguing that compound exercises are no more effective than isolation movements (pretty much the opposite to accepted theory for mass building). Was wondering what people thought about it....

But are the compound exercises more effective for the main target muscle ? I don't think so. Let's take flies and bench press for example. To make things comparable and nullify the stabilizing role of the bar, we'll assume the dumbbell bench press. The compound movement is the press (two joints involved) and the isolating one is the fly (one joint). Now, look at what the pecs do in both cases: Transverse flexion of the arm. The movement of the humerus is the same. Now, if you can do flies with 30kg dumbbells and presses with 35kg dumbbells, this doesn't mean that presses are loading more the pecs. The extra load goes to the triceps, and it is them which make you able to handle more weight. The pecs can still handle 30kg each, no more. (One may argue that the eccentric part of the move is more loaded with compound exercises, but we still don't know how much load the synergists absorb). Same with shoulder presses and lateral raises: It is the triceps wich allow for more weight in presses.

[MiloMan]

Approximately how long have you been engaged in serious weight training?

[midian]

flies with 30 kg ??

compound exercesis allow you to do less isolation exercises at the end of the workout for exemple if i do my back workout, after pull ups and bend over rows i just do 3-4 sets for biceps offcourse and that's enof, on chest day i do 4 sets for triceps at the end of the workout, that's why you always do the compound movements first and i think noone would ever get big from using isolation exercises alone but some people just stick to the main compound movement and get enof development

[robefc]

Originally posted by MiloMan
Approximately how long have you been engaged in serious weight training?

I've been working out for about 4 years (starting off not that serious and got more into it gradually).

I've always prioritised compound movements but think this guy makes an intersting point.

Did you have anything to add?

[midian]

Originally posted by robefc
I've been working out for about 4 years (starting off not that serious and got more into it gradually).

I've always prioritised compound movements but think this guy makes an intersting point.

Did you have anything to add?

keep prioritising compound movements, that guy that told it must be a genetic freak or he gets some unnatural help, isolation exercises alone won't do, compound exercises alone will do, doing both with a bigger focus on compound would be great

[robefc]

Originally posted by midian
flies with 30 kg ??

compound exercesis allow you to do less isolation exercises at the end of the workout for exemple if i do my back workout, after pull ups and bend over rows i just do 3-4 sets for biceps offcourse and that's enof, on chest day i do 4 sets for triceps at the end of the workout, that's why you always do the compound movements first and i think noone would ever get big from using isolation exercises alone but some people just stick to the main compound movement and get enof development

Thats how I've always worked as well - obviously compound exercises allow you to work out more muscles at once but this issue is really about whether say chest press exercises are actually any better for building chest mass than flies. Obviously the prevailing theory is that compound movements are better for this but new theories that buck the trend and have some scientific argument behind them are always of interest to me

[midian]

Originally posted by robefc
Thats how I've always worked as well - obviously compound exercises allow you to work out more muscles at once but this issue is really about whether say chest press exercises are actually any better for building chest mass than flies. Obviously the prevailing theory is that compound movements are better for this but new theories that buck the trend and have some scientific argument behind them are always of interest to me

i don't get it, flies are crappy exercises for chest development IMO if you compare them to dips or DB bench press, they won't be much of a contest for them, i dont even do flies and getting great gains from it, but if you curious i would say try it for a few months and post the results, that's the only way to be sure

[robefc]

Originally posted by midian
i don't get it, flies are crappy exercises for chest development IMO if you compare them to dips or DB bench press, they won't be much of a contest for them, i dont even do flies and getting great gains from it, but if you curious i would say try it for a few months and post the results, that's the only way to be sure

Well its true that the only way to be sure is to try it yourself but then again the whole point of researching different training methods is to avoid having to make all the mistakes that others have made in the past and therefore not waste time with inefective methods

Your point about flies being crappy is exactly what I would have thought but I don't have a scientific argument to back it up. He is explaining why he believes the pec works in the same way for both fly and compound movements and I can't dispute that - hence why I'm asking here to see if others have more to add. I naturally think presses are better but don't have a logical explanation anymore.

Incidentally this guy is talking theoretically, I don't think he's actually tried solely using isolation exercises although he's thinking about it which would be interesting

[sessa]

I have been working out for around 2 years. I started this year focusing on compound exercises. I have noticed a huge difference in gains compared to a routine that has more isolation exercises.

[Kane Fan]

well let met give you my take on it
with that example
flys all the work (or at least the vast majoirty of it) is on the pecs
however in db press the work is still more on the pecs, but the tris help
now, if you were using a bb (or db) with form correct and handplacement the pecs could still do the majority of the work with the tris helping just enough to get the pecs to do thier maximum possible work
it is unlikely that the maximum possible work from your pecs will be done with x weight db
but with x weight db when x is more then the pecs can handle alone, and tris help pecs just enough to get it done
then pecs are working at the maximum
also on a Barbell bench, the lower secotion is mostly pecs and some shoulder/tricep

anyway my take on it is to use both

also I'd like to see you build great Lats, with only iso lifts
or get good mass on the side of your arms (the part of the bicep between the tri and bi from the side view) with no hammer curls

[BIGBANGSingh]

I'll get torn to shreds for mentioning Sisco's name, but here are some thoughts on this subject:

On this forum, I originally asked:
"Does anyone know how Sisco objectively measures which exercises work the best? Is it by largest increase in muscle mass to the targeted muscle group, greatest % of increase in Power Factor #, or what? Thank you for your time."

Someone responded:
"Initially it was just which exercises gave the highest power factor and power index numbers. Later he did MRI studies to look at which exercises caused the greatest amount of muscle fiber recruitment.

The MRI studies looked at stimulation of specific muscles, the target muscle of each exercise. However the point was proven that the best muscle fiber recruitment comes from using compound exercises. The synergistic effect of working several muscle groups together leads to greater stimulation of each muscle in the chain.

This is where the general idea of using compound exercises was proven to be true. Compound exercises work much better than isolation exercises for increasing muscle mass."

I can't verify that this is all "scientifically" accurate, but it's just a thought

[robefc]

[/B]/QUOTE] The synergistic effect of working several muscle groups together leads to greater stimulation of each muscle in the chain.[/B]/QUOTE]

ah - thanks for that, this was something i tried to argue but I didn't have the source. I shall post it on the other board and see what he says

kane fan- my take is to do compound and isolation exercises too and I definitely still feel 'insitinctively' that heavy presses for example are better than heavy flies but its interesting to answer the theory. Hopefully this guy will try and isolation routine to be our guinea pig

[MiloMan]

Originally posted by robefc
/QUOTE] The synergistic effect of working several muscle groups together leads to greater stimulation of each muscle in the chain.[/B]/QUOTE]

ah - thanks for that, this was something i tried to argue but I didn't have the source. I shall post it on the other board and see what he says

kane fan- my take is to do compound and isolation exercises too and I definitely still feel 'insitinctively' that heavy presses for example are better than heavy flies but its interesting to answer the theory. Hopefully this guy will try and isolation routine to be our guinea pig [/B]

Don't even worry about what he thinks, or if he agrees with you. Just let that gym rat rot in his own filth, while you progress.

[Kane Fan]

I am no gym rat

[MiloMan]

Originally posted by Kane Fan
I am no gym rat

I meant that gym rat on the other board that he seems to want to convince.

[TarvMan]

I dont see any reason to ever do isolation excersizes, first of all its impossible to isolate a muscle, nor is it desirable.

Where else in life do you isolate your muscle. when you lift up the matress do you use just your bicep in strict form? Hell NO! YOu use your back your delts your forearms and your legs.

I suppose if your a champion bodybuilder, and like your muscles to look totally seperate from eachother like frankenstein, then isolation excersises could be of value to you.

[robefc]

Originally posted by TarvMan


Where else in life do you isolate your muscle. when you lift up the matress do you use just your bicep in strict form? Hell NO! YOu use your back your delts your forearms and your legs.
.

Fair point I guess but then if in life i performed all the sorts of actions that I perform in the gym there wouldn't be any need for weights would there - I'm seeking the best way to build muscle. Whilst agreeing that compound exercises are better I still think isolation exercises have a purpose (for example how do you know your chest gets maximum stimulation from say the bench press and that your triceps don't fail first?)

I don't think i ever use strict form in egular life - does that mean i shouldn't use strict form in the gym? of course not, I'm working out to get bigger, not to be able to perform everyday actions better!

[robefc]

Originally posted by MiloMan
Don't even worry about what he thinks, or if he agrees with you. Just let that gym rat rot in his own filth, while you progress.

Thanks for the ever so useful contribution, I'm actually looking for a well-argued technical debate

[robefc]

incidntally that's not meant to sound harsh miloman but I find his points interesting and what to be able to come back at him with more than 'compound movements are better so there'! cos if thats the best argument we have then maybe we don't have an argument

[MiloMan]

Originally posted by robefc
incidntally that's not meant to sound harsh miloman but I find his points interesting and what to be able to come back at him with more than 'compound movements are better so there'! cos if thats the best argument we have then maybe we don't have an argument

You aren't obliged to explain your viewpoints to anyone that disagrees with you, nor should you feel that you should. There might, on occasion, be a financial or career advancement advantage to doing so, or influencing those close to you to engage in (or to avoid) specific behavior.

As a few examples, you might write a slick position paper, book, speech, or article - my diet book is good, so go buy it for $24, or this is why you should vote for me, or a conversation explaining to your own kids why they shouldn't sniff airplane glue, etc. For all of these efforts, you would hope to gain a tangible advantage that would improve your lot in life, though you might not be successful.

[robefc]

Thats a fair point but I'm not interested in convincing him - I'm interested in finding out what are the best methods for building muscle!

[JamesBarlow]

Anohter reason for doing compound movements instead of isolation would be the efficiency of the movment.

The bench press had been mentioned already.

Take all the muscles that are worked in bb bench, and come up with all the isolation movments required to get the same effect. You could either do one compound movement, or at least three isolation ones.

I would rather just do the one exercise.

Move onto the squat or deadlift and you will being doing isolation movements for days to try and hit everything.

[robefc]

Agreed - the efficiency of the movement is a big advantage usually.

However, you could say that exercising say the triceps during the bench press reduces the amount of load they can take in the tricep extension. In a whole-body training style this might be a disadvantage....

[Kane Fan]

Originally posted by TarvMan
I dont see any reason to ever do isolation excersizes, first of all its impossible to isolate a muscle, nor is it desirable.

Where else in life do you isolate your muscle. when you lift up the matress do you use just your bicep in strict form? Hell NO! YOu use your back your delts your forearms and your legs.

I suppose if your a champion bodybuilder, and like your muscles to look totally seperate from eachother like frankenstein, then isolation excersises could be of value to you.

ok but your goals should impact your lifting tho
if you wan size on your arms, you will be well advised to include Hammer Curls

if you want functional strength you will be well advised to do sandbag carries and core strenthening lifts

I have to say tho your point about the matress, not really very good
by the same token, if you ever need to pick something up you probubly wont use your biceps, you'll grip it and try to deadlift it
so just do deadlifts no rows or curls right?
no that dosn'tmake sence