Hi Nut Misc, what is your opinion on this...

[sunchienlee]

I know form is extremely important when it comes to training. What I am wondering is that you know sometimes on your last rep or two on your last set, you are fighting hard. Your form may not be perfect but still respectable. Do you still consider those last reps "full" reps? An example could be not going parallel on squats or going low enough on flat bench.

I am wondering this because I have been following Lyle's GBR for awhile, and I feel like as I am progressing, I am not paying as much attention to my form as before.
I am considering lowering the weight and execute each rep with perfect form. Is this worth doing?

Cliffs:
Perfect form with lower weight VS. Slightly less perfect form with heavier weight

Discuss.

Thanks in advance.

[yepimonfire]

I know form is extremely important when it comes to training. What I am wondering is that you know sometimes on your last rep or two on your last set, you are fighting hard. Your form may not be perfect but still respectable. Do you still consider those last reps "full" reps? An example could be not going parallel on squats or going low enough on flat bench.

I am wondering this because I have been following Lyle's GBR for awhile, and I feel like as I am progressing, I am not paying as much attention to my form as before.
I am considering lowering the weight and execute each rep with perfect form. Is this worth doing?

Cliffs:
Perfect form with lower weight VS. Slightly less perfect form with heavier weight

Discuss.

Thanks in advance.

take 5lbs off of the last set bro.

[HunterCML]

I know form is extremely important when it comes to training. What I am wondering is that you know sometimes on your last rep or two on your last set, you are fighting hard. Your form may not be perfect but still respectable. Do you still consider those last reps "full" reps? An example could be not going parallel on squats or going low enough on flat bench.

I am wondering this because I have been following Lyle's GBR for awhile, and I feel like as I am progressing, I am not paying as much attention to my form as before.
I am considering lowering the weight and execute each rep with perfect form. Is this worth doing?

Cliffs:
Perfect form with lower weight VS. Slightly less perfect form with heavier weight

Discuss.

Thanks in advance.

Lower weight. Nothing makes you look more like a clown in my opinion than when you're moving heavy weight with a ****ty ROM.

[JasonDB]

It means you reached muscle failure, which isn't something I recomend you do regularly. You need to go a hair lighter on your weight. There is something to be said for cheating to handle a heavier weight on some lifts and heavy partial reps but these are methods for people who know what they are doing. Early on in your training it is best to keep your form tight and stop short of failure even on your last set.

[Trillios]

Slightly less perfect for heavier weight? I'll take it. I don't lift like an asshole but it's been my experience to progressively lift heavier sometimes you got to make it look a bit ugly. Besides I've yet to see someone go balls out on a 1-5rm lift with absolutely textbook perfect form. Maybe there's a few but I'd then say it's not their 1-5rm .

[Lvisaa2]

Eh, I'm going to be in the minority in this subject, but I think if you can do perfect form on every rep of every set then you need to be going heavier. That isn't an excuse to use bad form for the majority of your lifts but if using a little english or slightly reduced ROM can help push that extra bit. Same philosophy as forced reps. People preach less rigidity in diet, why is training any different. See heavy weight, lift heavy weight

[JasonDB]

Eh, I'm going to be in the minority in this subject, but I think if you can do perfect form on every rep of every set then you need to be going heavier. That isn't an excuse to use bad form for the majority of your lifts but if using a little english or slightly reduced ROM can help push that extra bit. Same philosophy as forced reps. People preach less rigidity in diet, why is training any different. See heavy weight, lift heavy weight

I very much agree with you here and actually use the exact same word "putting a little english on the lift", but I would rather see a novice learn textbook form, then gradually start finding the specific cheats and slightly reduced ROM that gives him the ideal MMC on a given lift after learning the basics.

If you are changing your form near the end of a lift it is because you are reaching muscle failure, which is something I feel one should avoid most of the time as it compromises strength gains if used too freqently.

[lovingit]

Generally:

If my form is slightly sloppy on my last rep or two, I try the following week to do all reps at the same weight with good form.

If my form is really sloppy on several reps (like 4 or more), I lower the weight.

But I like this thread and am interested in other people's responses.

eta: A good example...db OH press. Very hard for females to progress on. I was stuck at 30s for months. I finally had to use a spotter and some "english" like Lee puts it to move up to 35s. I can now do 35s unassisted with good form.

[Lvisaa2]

Generally:

If my form is slightly sloppy on my last rep or two, I try the following week to do all reps at the same weight with good form.

If my form is really sloppy on several reps (like 4 or more), I lower the weight.

But I like this thread and am interested in other people's responses.

^This. If you're doing it too much then that is a sign of too high of a weight.

Also, that user title is winning.

I very much agree with you here and actually use the exact same word "putting a little english on the lift", but I would rather see a novice learn textbook form, then gradually start finding the specific cheats and slightly reduced ROM that gives him the ideal MMC on a given lift after learning the basics.

If you are changing your form near the end of a lift it is because you are reaching muscle failure, which is something I feel one should avoid most of the time as it compromises strength gains if used too freqently.

I don't disagree with the second part. I think people should learn correct form before changing anything, although I'm going to hope/assume(although we know what assuming does!) that most regulars here at least know/use relatively good form.

Since you are knowledgeable about training. Why would you advice beginners not to try to reach failure? Is it simply to make sure they build a foundation of proper form/knowledge before branching out or is there another reason? Since I've lifted I've always tried to push out every rep/set I have in me. I think constantly pushing the boundary forces adaptive changes to occur. Soon what was overreaching is now simply the norm.

[lovingit]

^This. If you're doing it too much then that is a sign of too high of a weight.

Also, that user title is winning..

You mirin' my user title?

[JasonDB]

I don't disagree with the second part. I think people should learn correct form before changing anything, although I'm going to hope/assume(although we know what assuming does!) that most regulars here at least know/use relatively good form.

Since you are knowledgeable about training. Why would you advice beginners not to try to reach failure? Is it simply to make sure they build a foundation of proper form/knowledge before branching out or is there another reason? Since I've lifted I've always tried to push out every rep/set I have in me. I think constantly pushing the boundary forces adaptive changes to occur. Soon what was overreaching is now simply the norm.

There is enough anecdotal evidence that muscle failure reduces strength gains that it is almost non-existent amid trainees of strength coaches whose living depends on their athletes winning medals and championships. It is what causes CNS burnout, yet doesn't seem to yeild any positive gain in strength or hypertrophy. Mentzer pushed this. I actually do not train to failure... ever. If I wish to extend a set I do rest pause in order to make absolutely sure that I completely lock the last rep without breaking form (whatever form I used for the entire set). On the subject of failure you should also keep in mind that the individual set isn't as important as the cumulative metabolic fatigue and fiber recruitment of the entire workout that is important. This is one reason why methods like 10x10 with fairly light weights have been show to be so tremendously effective for short term gains in hypertrophy. You place very very large workload on the muscles in a short period of time, cause extreme metabolic fatigue and fiber recruitment without having to use a high intensity or fail to recruit enough motor units to lift the weight. Overload isn't "pushing my CNS to failure" it is about cumulative taxation of the target muscles through a combination of intensity, workload and workload density. CNS system failure isn't a requirement for, or an actual direct stimulation, of fiber hypertrophy or strength. Plenty of very massive and very powerful individuals do not train to failure at all.


On the subject of using English or partial ROM I believe in varying it based upon goals as well. For example on bench press, if I am training for power and working 1-5 rep ranges I pause off the chest and lock the weight at the top and sometimes pause between reps at the lockout. However if I am doing rep work for metabolic fatigue I attempt to keep my pecs under constant tension and train up and down like a piston, no pausing and I avoid locking out at the top in order to ensure time under tension for the duration of the entire set.

[Lvisaa2]

You mirin' my user title?

I promise, ma'am, I was only staring at the user title...

[JasonDB]

I promise, ma'am, I was only staring at the user title...

Lies... :P

[mynameisuntz]

Okay, what's the English reference? Like, grunting/swearing while doing a set?

>:|

[JasonDB]

Okay, what's the English reference? Like, grunting/swearing while doing a set?

>:|

Loose form. Manu (and Ronnie Coleman) puts a LOT of English on his barbell rows for example to use a ****load of weight. From a textbook form perspective it is horrific, and for the inexperienced trainee could lead to injury. Both these individuals do so injury free and have successfully developed very good back thickness from it. What he is doing is very much cheating but it is very consistent and very controlled. He does it the exact same way every time.

It is a sports term that usually refers to putting a lot of arc or spin into a ball so that it doesn't move in a straight line.

[Lvisaa2]

Okay, what's the English reference? Like, grunting/swearing while doing a set?

>:|

Just a little extra movement in your lift. Using more momentum/pulling with non-targeted muscles.

Here is a quick/dirty read(also the first thing google popped up) - http://www.donniesfitness.com/donnie...ning&Itemid=72

Loose form. Manu (and Ronnie Coleman) puts a LOT of English on his barbell rows for example to use a ****load of weight. From a textbook form perspective it is horrific, and for the inexperienced trainee could lead to injury. Both these individuals do so injury free and have successfully developed very good back thickness from it.

It is a sports term that usually refers to putting a lot of arc or spin into a ball so that it doesn't move in a straight line.

^ I personally think it is a great way to train your back. Due to larger number of back muscles, recruiting multiple ones on the lift can create good overall back development. I personally find no benefit in doing it with bicep work, though. Stricter form/contraction seems to feel/develop better for me on biceps.

Like anything, I think it is something you should play around with to find if it suits you and how to incorporate it properly.

[mynameisuntz]

Loose form. Manu (and Ronnie Coleman) puts a LOT of English on his barbell rows for example to use a ****load of weight. From a textbook form perspective it is horrific, and for the inexperienced trainee could lead to injury. Both these individuals do so injury free and have successfully developed very good back thickness from it. What he is doing is very much cheating but it is very consistent and very controlled. He does it the exact same way every time.

It is a sports term that usually refers to putting a lot of arc or spin into a ball so that it doesn't move in a straight line.

My definition is way more logical.

"I can't push this weight up!"
"PUT SOME ENGLISH ON IT, BRO!"
"FUUUUUUUUUUU....!!!!"
*Blasts final rep*

Right? Come on.

[PerpetualMotion]

If someone loses a little form then that's fine but reduced ROM is a different thing. I'll use myself as an example with the bench. If I stop an inch before my chest, I can bench 15 more pounds in my 5RM. But I always go that extra inch because my chest and lats are what's causing my weakness out of the bottom. Short ROM = preventing strengthening of potential weaknesses.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with some momentus. Fact is, some of the biggest guys use momentum and you'll get to a point where some is better. I remember TC for T-nation talking about this. John Meadows has also wrote about it. Using momentum can be pretty helpful.

[Lvisaa2]

My definition is way more logical.

"I can't push this weight up!"
"PUT SOME ENGLISH ON IT, BRO!"
"FUUUUUUUUUUU....!!!!"
*Blasts final rep*

Right? Come on.

Many times english can be accompanied by grunting/swearing as your body has already said fk you and you decide to go for 2 more reps

[JasonDB]

If someone loses a little form then that's fine but reduced ROM is a different thing. I'll use myself as an example with the bench. If I stop an inch before my chest, I can bench 15 more pounds in my 5RM. But I always go that extra inch because my chest and lats are what's causing my weakness out of the bottom. Short ROM = preventing strengthening of potential weaknesses.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with some momentus. Fact is, some of the biggest guys use momentum and you'll get to a point where some is better. I remember TC for T-nation talking about this. John Meadows has also wrote about it. Using momentum can be pretty helpful.

Yeah a complex subject and trying to apply too much of the information on one specific lift to another isn't always appllicable. Some lifts heavily reduce tension on some muscles and not others in certain points of the rom, some have myostatic reflexs and others do not etc. The bench press does have some myostatic reflex, that if it can be developed, can improve your bench by using this to drive it harder of the chest and give a deeper contraction near the top of the rep you engaged this response on. Incline curls have quite a strong myostatic reflex at the bottom of the ROM. Whereas bench press reduces tension on the pecs near the top of the ROM... it doesn't completely disengage them but it does greatly reduce tension.

[SOJA]

Here's my personal belief.

Perfect your form with lighter weights. Get that form down hard and expand your ROM. Then move onto higher weights.

I don't have any scientific basis to this, but it's basically physics. Heavier weights with improper form and bad ROM will result in injury as there is far more pressure on your body in the wrong places.

[sunchienlee]

Guys and gal

Thank you so much for the helpful information, I tried to rep everyone but is on spread for some of you guys. I will catch you guys later for sure.

Although I have been training for awhile now, it's only after I discovered the nutrition forum that I started training properly (diet and workout).
I kinda want to chime in JasonDB's comment on training to failure. After a couple of months on my current workout, my workout started to allow me to train to failure. Maybe "allow" is not a really fitting word, but I try to push the weight in the following week if I can reach the set number of reps in sets. However, about a month ago I started to reach a plateau in strength even though I have been eating a surplus. Specifically to my bench and squats, I have not been able to break that barrier. I believe it's partly mentally as well, so I tried to add 5lb anyway. I ended up having to resort to poorer form and less ROM. Just a personal experience I wanted to share.

At the moment, I am leaning more towards lowering the weight to further hone in on form since I am still pretty much a beginner.

Thanks again everyone.

EDIT: Anyone else wants to chime in on the subject, please feel free!!

[NaLLa8705]

Eh, I'm going to be in the minority in this subject, but I think if you can do perfect form on every rep of every set then you need to be going heavier. That isn't an excuse to use bad form for the majority of your lifts but if using a little english or slightly reduced ROM can help push that extra bit. Same philosophy as forced reps. People preach less rigidity in diet, why is training any different. See heavy weight, lift heavy weight

I agree and this seems to make logical sense.

There is enough anecdotal evidence that muscle failure reduces strength gains that it is almost non-existent amid trainees of strength coaches whose living depends on their athletes winning medals and championships. It is what causes CNS burnout, yet doesn't seem to yeild any positive gain in strength or hypertrophy. Mentzer pushed this. I actually do not train to failure... ever. If I wish to extend a set I do rest pause in order to make absolutely sure that I completely lock the last rep without breaking form (whatever form I used for the entire set). On the subject of failure you should also keep in mind that the individual set isn't as important as the cumulative metabolic fatigue and fiber recruitment of the entire workout that is important. This is one reason why methods like 10x10 with fairly light weights have been show to be so tremendously effective for short term gains in hypertrophy. You place very very large workload on the muscles in a short period of time, cause extreme metabolic fatigue and fiber recruitment without having to use a high intensity or fail to recruit enough motor units to lift the weight. Overload isn't "pushing my CNS to failure" it is about cumulative taxation of the target muscles through a combination of intensity, workload and workload density. CNS system failure isn't a requirement for, or an actual direct stimulation, of fiber hypertrophy or strength. Plenty of very massive and very powerful individuals do not train to failure at all.


On the subject of using English or partial ROM I believe in varying it based upon goals as well. For example on bench press, if I am training for power and working 1-5 rep ranges I pause off the chest and lock the weight at the top and sometimes pause between reps at the lockout. However if I am doing rep work for metabolic fatigue I attempt to keep my pecs under constant tension and train up and down like a piston, no pausing and I avoid locking out at the top in order to ensure time under tension for the duration of the entire set.

Is training to failure not always training to muscle failure? How can you identify the difference between muscle failure and CNS failure? Is there such difference?

(Good read btw... thank you)

[yepimonfire]

I agree and this seems to make logical sense.



Is training to failure not always training to muscle failure? How can you identify the difference between muscle failure and CNS failure? Is there such difference?

(Good read btw... thank you)

muscle failure usually involves glycogen and or ATP depletion. it is usually noticable by shakiness and some weakness in the muscle along with a burn feeling from lactic acid buildup and follows immediately after a workout, the feeling usually leaves about 30 minutes after a workout. ever done an intense leg day and its hard to walk out of the gym without falling over? that's muscle failure. CNS failure (or burnout is actually a better word) usually happens over an extended period of time and results in a slight loss of strength throughout the entire body, feeling fatigued and worn out, mentally foggy, and generally blah. if you ever experience CNS burnout, more then likely the thought of just going to a gym will make you cringe. CNS burnout is why people have to take a deload.

[NaLLa8705]

muscle failure usually involves glycogen and or ATP depletion. it is usually noticable by shakiness and some weakness in the muscle along with a burn feeling from lactic acid buildup and follows immediately after a workout, the feeling usually leaves about 30 minutes after a workout. ever done an intense leg day and its hard to walk out of the gym without falling over? that's muscle failure. CNS failure (or burnout is actually a better word) usually happens over an extended period of time and results in a slight loss of strength throughout the entire body, feeling fatigued and worn out, mentally foggy, and generally blah. if you ever experience CNS burnout, more then likely the thought of just going to a gym will make you cringe. CNS burnout is why people have to take a deload.

So is Jason saying by not constantly training to failure you miss the long term effects of CNS fatigue and keep yourself from having to deload sooner?

[JasonDB]

muscle failure usually involves glycogen and or ATP depletion. it is usually noticable by shakiness and some weakness in the muscle along with a burn feeling from lactic acid buildup and follows immediately after a workout, the feeling usually leaves about 30 minutes after a workout. ever done an intense leg day and its hard to walk out of the gym without falling over? that's muscle failure. CNS failure (or burnout is actually a better word) usually happens over an extended period of time and results in a slight loss of strength throughout the entire body, feeling fatigued and worn out, mentally foggy, and generally blah. if you ever experience CNS burnout, more then likely the thought of just going to a gym will make you cringe. CNS burnout is why people have to take a deload.

For experienced trainees working under 70%1rm that type of failure occurs. Not for the novice and not for heavy lifting. In both of those cases you are more prone to seeing CNS failure NOT muscle failure. If you fail on rep 6 or 8 you did not reach muscle failure, it was your CNS that gave out. If you have 2 years of training and you fail on rep 16 or your 10th rep of your 5th set it is muscle failure probably. CNS failure is counterproductive for gains in strength, and there is a performance element to progressive overload even in high rep high volume routines.

Novice trainees almost never have developed enough neural effeciency to reach a metabolic based muscle failure. Their CNS cannot recruit enough motor units to train very hard before it drops out and they hit failure for neural reasons.

So is Jason saying by not constantly training to failure you miss the long term effects of CNS fatigue and keep yourself from having to deload sooner?

No I am saying that you do not want to reach CNS failure often. You can push yourself to over-reaching via metabolic fatigue, which DOES stimulate growth. CNS failure has zero benefits for strength or hypertrophy. On my 2nd cup of coffee so not sure if making sense.

[jake1224]

Form is overrated. If you deadlift a 1RM with perfect form, it's not your 1RM. Bitch weight, etc.



Gonna read the thread now.

[lovingit]

CNS failure (or burnout is actually a better word) usually happens over an extended period of time and results in a slight loss of strength throughout the entire body, feeling fatigued and worn out, mentally foggy, and generally blah. if you ever experience CNS burnout, more then likely the thought of just going to a gym will make you cringe. CNS burnout is why people have to take a deload.

THis is very interesting to me because this is what happened to me several months ago. I felt like my body was not recovering at all...I was constantly sore from head to toe, very fatigued, weak...and the thought of lifting made me want to kill myself when normally I really enjoy lifting. I think it was Gus the Bus who recommended that I deload (I was initially questioning if it was my diet), but I ended up taking a week off, came back strong, and haven't had a problem since.

[JasonDB]

THis is very interesting to me because this is what happened to me several months ago. I felt like my body was not recovering at all...I was constantly sore from head to toe, very fatigued, weak...and the thought of lifting made me want to kill myself when normally I really enjoy lifting. I think it was Gus the Bus who recommended that I deload (I was initially questioning if it was my diet), but I ended up taking a week off, came back strong, and haven't had a problem since.

Sounds like you have reached intermediate status and are no longer a novice, which also means you are ready for more metabolically taxing training methods, and will need to incorporate deloads into your training regularly. I would advise you take deloads/active recovery rather than actual weeks off though in the future. Yes a properly timed deload will allow you to come back stronger than you previously were.

I should clarify a bit what I mean by a deload.

If you have been bench pressing 4x8 with 135 lbs 3 times a week, on your deload you might bench 2-3x8 with 70-80 lbs 3 times a week. Reduced volume and reduced weight but still keeping the everything primed and putting some load on your body.

[lovingit]

Will do Jason. What do you consider regularly...just when I feel the same way again or don't wait until that point?

I'm on my phone so typing is bad. =)