This can't be accurate... Bodymediafit.

[spicyprice]

How many people in this thread have said something like: "I was eating X calories per day but not losing any weight. The Bodybugg said I should be eating Y" where Y is much greater than X? The difference in input and output has to come from somewhere. Either the estimation for how much they've eaten is horribly off or the bodybugg is horribly off.

Adaptation.

[EAE]

Adaptation.

How do you mean?

[MikeK46]

I think my BB is accurate, but I'm going to phase it out in a few weeks once I have a good grasp of how much to adjust intake based on various activity level. When completely sedentary, I was slightly overestimating compared to the BB's reading. When active, I was underestimating.

I also very much dislike the feeling of wearing the thing. For one, it reminds me of something you'd put on a pet. I can always feel it and it gives me a weird and often unpleasant feeling in my tricep. To measure your Galvanic Skin Response (GSR), it sends a small current through the body from one sensor to the other (to find out the electrical conductance of your skin, which increases with arousal). This is one of the most crucial sensors, I'm sure...but I'm not a fan of a small electrical current going through my tricep. I can feel it, and I'm not so sure it's completely harmless to your muscle/nerve connections over a prolonged period of time.

[spicyprice]

How do you mean?

Simply said, the body does not work in black and white. There are many metabolic pathways that can alter energy expenditure. There is a reason humans are still in existence today...... you can thank adaptation

The body bugg is NOT accurate in those with hypothyroid because although your activity hasnt changed, the metabolic process in which you utilize energy has, leading to a higher reading that what is actually happening in the body. This is how it can give you a reading that reflects adaptation (or disease.)

I know that cortisol, etc can cause water retention masking the fat loss as well..... and getting rid of that water can be a biotch.... its not just a matter of ketoing for a couple days or taking a diuretic. It requires refeeding, sometimes for extended periods of time dependent on how long you have been eating so little as wel as you individual tolerance to low calorie dieting.

I will link some of emma leighs posts that went looking for. She mentions a lowered activity as a result of severely undereating, but also discusses the hormonal component. I think when a persona is of a type-A driven sort of personality, they will push through and maintain activity leaving just the hormone component.

I can attests to exactly that..... there was a time before I was hypothyroid that I was eating 1300-1400 cals a day, working all day (nurse on my feet working 5 12 hr shifts a week), gym 7 days a week, always moving/active, hiking and cycling on my days off. I lost 8 lbs and then for months didnt lose a single lb. Bad water retention issues, messed up lady times, etc, The weight never fell off, started having all kinds of problems, ended up diagnosed hypothyroid (will add that my dieting history wasnt much different.... starvation plus low calorie dieting and high intensity working out) and on synthroid. For me, it took the bb to realize I was far more active that I had thought and I started looking into why the fook I couldnt lose much. Even on PSMF I was not losing anywhere near what other females were losing. Consulted with a person who works with people in my situation and started upping cals. Life is muy better.


All of the quotes are from emma-leigh

Just thought I'd throw in some articles/ideas:

The starvation study that the other link is to is done by a guy called Keys (in the 1950's). He did a lot of research on starvation adaptation (if you can find his papers they are a good read - esp this one Changes of basal metabolic rate in man in semi-starvation and refeeding You can find it in the Journal of Applied Physiology 1958 (12) pages 230–8 (it is not on the web).

There was a good lot of research done on some people that lived in calorie restriction for ages - now called the Biosphere experiment... try this:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/4/946?

You might also want to read these:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/6/1413

http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/111/9/1409

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/52/3/415?

And this:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/336/25/1802?

And some general stuff with a little to do with leptin:
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/79/2/451

Your body quickly adapts to lower energy intake - less than 24 hours of lower calorie consumption is needed to decrease your RMR and decrease your EE - This is because all of the cellular processes in your body slow down (due to a decrease in sympathetic tone, a decrease in T3 and a decrease in GH) and your behaviour alters (usually subconciously) so your energy expenditure is decreased.

A re-feed helps to boost your body back up into positive energy balance and gets everything going again. Also, it is good to note that 1 day of over-feeding will not result in a substantial gain (especially if it is from carbohydrates - which require massive over-feeding to be converted to appreciable levels of fat)... [Just incase you are interested -

From http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/83/1/3#B9 :

"With respect to body energy requirements, serum leptin falls dramatically with short-term fasting (12 h) in the absence of appreciable weight loss... In contrast, 1 day of massive overfeeding (120 cal/kg over 12 h) was sufficient to raise serum leptin 40% in the absence of a weight gain..." ]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...=1#post2431338


[quote]

Other links to her stuff:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=113443111

Although more recognised in females, there is this funky phenomenon when doing REALLY low cal + lots of cardio where you get a stress hormone associated fluid retention related to altered electrolyte/ mineralocorticoid levels. This causes your weight loss to appear to stall (although your weight is still dropping, your water holding increases = leading to the same weight on the scale). So as soon as you increase food a little, and your cortisol drops, you drop the water <<-- makes it look like you are 'in starvation mode'.

Additionally - >> Although 'metabolic / starvation response' is not as common as people think, you WILL/DO get decreased energy expenditure associated with low calorie dieting. This is not only hormonal (eg: thyroid level decreases, alterations in testosterone/ sex hormones, decreased leptin etc), but also behavioural (decreased spontaneous exercise/ NEAT). It happens to a greater degree the leaner you are too - so 'fatties' have more 'wiggle room' associated with energy intake/ expenditure.

Other issues to think about is that when the above water holding issues are combined with the impact these same stress levels have on lean mass retention as well as insulin sensitivity, and recovery, you WILL get less satisfactory results and end up looking 'worse for it'.....

Basically => Doing excessive cardio + a calorie intake that wouldn't maintain a midget female will eventually = shooting yourself in the foot.

Thus ->> Although the temptation is always that 'less is less'... sometimes 'more is less' and being sensible is more sensible.

So my message is that if you are already lean - then don't be stupid.
Don't go extra really low calories + do extra amounts of high intensity cardio.
If you DO go low cal
- Keep cardio to a low level.
- Keep the periods brief and include refeeds or diet breaks.
- Keep your weights training sensible. Drop volume and keep intensity high.
^
it isn't rocket science.

Anyway, i am sort of addressing a lot of things with this post and am all over the place with it, but the jist of my point is that just because on paper one SHOULD be losing on a massive deficit, doesnt at all mean that they will. People have different tolerances to vlcd and I think those who are more tolerant seem to think the idea of adaptation is a myth.


/end of rant.


BTW, search function emma-leigh and read all you can from her. TONS of information.

[spicyprice]

I was retaining water like mad until I had a refeed that was high on carbs with low fat and protein. Dropped about 4 lb of water overnight. I had the longest piss the next morning that man has experienced. My exact macros were 90/310/45. Upping my sodium intake to 3,000 mg a day also seemed to help profoundly. Cognitive function improved after a few days of increased sodium intake.

I would make sure you are getting enough potassium as well. fluid retention is about a balance and potassium plays a role in that. There are varying recommendations I have seen from anywhere from 1:2 na:k to 1:5. I had been getting 3+ of sodium a day maybe only about 2g of k. was still having trouble with it and I started focusing on getting enough potassium rich foods and now I dont wake up with sausage fingers as much (except after night shift work..... )

[JHarden]

Simply said, the body does not work in black and white. There are many metabolic pathways that can alter energy expenditure. There is a reason humans are still in existence today...... you can thank adaptation

The body bugg is NOT accurate in those with hypothyroid because although your activity hasnt changed, the metabolic process in which you utilize energy has, leading to a higher reading that what is actually happening in the body. This is how it can give you a reading that reflects adaptation (or disease.)

I know that cortisol, etc can cause water retention masking the fat loss as well..... and getting rid of that water can be a biotch.... its not just a matter of ketoing for a couple days or taking a diuretic. It requires refeeding, sometimes for extended periods of time dependent on how long you have been eating so little as wel as you individual tolerance to low calorie dieting.

I will link some of emma leighs posts that went looking for. She mentions a lowered activity as a result of severely undereating, but also discusses the hormonal component. I think when a persona is of a type-A driven sort of personality, they will push through and maintain activity leaving just the hormone component.

I can attests to exactly that..... there was a time before I was hypothyroid that I was eating 1300-1400 cals a day, working all day (nurse on my feet working 5 12 hr shifts a week), gym 7 days a week, always moving/active, hiking and cycling on my days off. I lost 8 lbs and then for months didnt lose a single lb. Bad water retention issues, messed up lady times, etc, The weight never fell off, started having all kinds of problems, ended up diagnosed hypothyroid (will add that my dieting history wasnt much different.... starvation plus low calorie dieting and high intensity working out) and on synthroid. For me, it took the bb to realize I was far more active that I had thought and I started looking into why the fook I couldnt lose much. Even on PSMF I was not losing anywhere near what other females were losing. Consulted with a person who works with people in my situation and started upping cals. Life is muy better.

What was the BB saying your expenditure was on most days if you don't mind me asking? I just quit wearing mine but had some time left on my subscription so I gave it to my mom to wear. She's 53 and 100 pounds and it has her burning anywhere from 2600-2800. She's really active, only sitting around for an hour or two during the day, but that still seems a little high for someone her age, height, and weight. None of the formulas give her anything close to that. Just curious to see what another active female's expenditure is to compare.

[TheEther24]

Nice post Spicy.

Am looking forward to getting a BB and seeing what it tells me. Am hoping that increased calories helps to resolve the mystery I had of why I wasn't losing weight as a 6'4 195lb male eating 1800 cals a day and being very active on a construction site with physical labor, because I was definitely stumped. Fortunately I read through this thread when I did because I was on the verge of deciding to jack up the cardio a notch and lower cals to 1500 :/

[spicyprice]

What was the BB saying your expenditure was on most days if you don't mind me asking? I just quit wearing mine but had some time left on my subscription so I gave it to my mom to wear. She's 53 and 100 pounds and it has her burning anywhere from 2600-2800. She's really active, only sitting around for an hour or two during the day, but that still seems a little high for someone her age, height, and weight. None of the formulas give her anything close to that. Just curious to see what another active female's expenditure is to compare.

On days where I didnt do as much I was getting 2400ish and active days 2800. She may have a very high NEAT. how tall is she?

[spicyprice]

Nice post Spicy.

Am looking forward to getting a BB and seeing what it tells me. Am hoping that increased calories helps to resolve the mystery I had of why I wasn't losing weight as a 6'4 195lb male eating 1800 cals a day and being very active on a construction site with physical labor, because I was definitely stumped. Fortunately I read through this thread when I did because I was on the verge of deciding to jack up the cardio a notch and lower cals to 1500 :/

Oh dear God, dont do that!! I mean, if you wanted to go without the BB, I think you could do it without it, although I think the BB mentally may give you a piece of mind about doing it. Start upping your cals slowly (or more quickly if you want)..... each increase you will see the scale jump up but it should go back down, increase again. Im sure you are getting enough protein, so start upping cho first (leptin is very responsive to cho) but also add in some fats (hormones.) You can use the calculators and use a very high activity factor and start working towards that or try out the BB and use its numbers. Men are far more tolerant of the very low calorie dieting, so hopefully gettin to maintenance and then down to a reasonable deficit and seeing your goal weight (like hockeytown did) will happen quickly for you!

[JHarden]

On days where I didnt do as much I was getting 2400ish and active days 2800. She may have a very high NEAT. how tall is she?

She's 5 feet tall and yes her Neat is very high. Constantly doing something. I saw the post about the low calories and that really is her. She eats about 1000 cal a day, very low carb so i'm sure her metabolism is somewhat screwed up. When we saw her expenditure i told her she should up the kcals some. Would you suggest a big increase at once or go slowly in increments?

[spicyprice]

She's 5 feet tall and yes her Neat is very high. Constantly doing something. I saw the post about the low calories and that really is her. She eats about 1000 cal a day, very low carb so i'm sure her metabolism is somewhat screwed up. When we saw her expenditure i told her she should up the kcals some. Would you suggest a big increase at once or go slowly in increments?

For her..... incredibly incredibly slow.

Actually, I would highly suggest she get a phone consult with Leigh Peele (leighpeele.com) If she has always eaten like that the reversal of it will be awful (weight gain/water retention.) Srrsly... low carb, high activity, 1k cals/day for years..eek. If she wants to reverse it, it will take some mental gumption and a willingness to gain some and see some major water fluctuations. Does she low sodium as well?


The phone consult is $50. Best $$ I ever spent and highly recommend it. Her writing leaves a bit to be desired, as do her podcasts IMO, but she is realllly great at what she does and in person (phone) she is so full of knowledge and a sincerity in helping the person get better. She works with a lot of anorexics, etc. She is not a nutritionist nor does she have any nutrition credentials (iirc) but she knows her stuff when it comes to this.

Emma-Leigh does as well (she has LOTS of credentials) but I dont know anything about consults with her. can always look into it.


GL!

[JHarden]

Thanks for all the help. I'll pass along all the info. And to answer your last question...yes, she is pretty low sodium as well. I can imagine the water retention would be terrible with all the factors coming in at once. Not sure how long she has been eating like this. She used to eat every 3 hours or so and would get closer to 2000 a day so I'm hoping it won't be terrible trying to get back up there. We'll definitely take it as slow as possible.

Thanks again.