Failed Squat - Technical Failure or just not strong enough for it yet..

[squatnoob405]

ive hit 440x1 Paused repeatedly over the last 2 weeks.. tried 445x1 today and failed it halfway up. see also some other failure i've recently had. im assuming that the weight is just too heavy at the moment. am i correct? ive been squatting daily for the last 6 weeks so form should not be an issue.

i noticed that im consistent in bending/caving my mid-upperback everytime i fail a near rep-max attempt. im doing weighted backextensions, pullups, GHRs for back strength. nothing too heavy.. just high rep.

also, im doing paused rep squats to minimize stressing my tendons/ligaments from the ballistic recoils of a regular oly squat rep.

experts please reply. thanks!

Failures
445x0


440x0


Completed Rep
440x1

[viperjax]

(aside) is there any evidence to show that oly squats are, as you claim, unhealthy for tendons and ligaments?

[OrthoStrength]

strong as **** cuz! at 5'10 172 you are pretty skinny yet very strong

[crackyflipside]

Why are you pausing? You don't have to bounce at the bottom to do an Oly squat.

[squatnoob405]

(aside) is there any evidence to show that oly squats are, as you claim, unhealthy for tendons and ligaments?

to clarify, i'm saving my tendons/ligaments from more stress because i'm also doing speed/explosive training (sprints/jumps) that is really taxing the connective tissues. i'm doing the full squats to strengthen my legs for improved sprinting, jumping and general explosiveness.

thanks!

[Iberian80]

to clarify, i'm saving my tendons/ligaments from more stress because i'm also doing speed/explosive training (sprints/jumps) that is really taxing the connective tissues. i'm doing the full squats to strengthen my legs for improved sprinting, jumping and general explosiveness.

thanks!

The pause is worse. The time spent streched and under incredible tension when at a full squat pause is going to hurt your tendons/ligaments a lot more than controlling the weight to the bottom and then reversing the direction. As Cracky said, you don't have to bounce.

Don't take this as an internet argument but as someone trying to help. To be fair though any large squat volume work out will wear your knees out over time. Tommy Kono said weightlifters don't have bad backs, just bad knees. No way around it.

[wrkoutfrq]

just curious, why keep your feet so close together (at least from what it looks like)?

it may be the angle, but it looks like your feet are really close together, maybe widening the stance a tad might help? i dunno, i've always seen heels at ~shoulder width

[squatnoob405]

The pause is worse. The time spent streched and under incredible tension when at a full squat pause is going to hurt your tendons/ligaments a lot more than controlling the weight to the bottom and then reversing the direction. As Cracky said, you don't have to bounce.

Don't take this as an internet argument but as someone trying to help. To be fair though any large squat volume work out will wear your knees out over time. Tommy Kono said weightlifters don't have bad backs, just bad knees. No way around it.

thanks. when doing a paused full squat, i will have to use a lighter when compared to a regular rep squat - therefore less stress on the joint sytem while still getting a good explosive strength benefit from it that will benefit my sprint starts/SVJ. and yes, i believe that with the strict upright torso of weightlifters, the knees will eventually get beat if not given enough time to recover.

[squatnoob405]

just curious, why keep your feet so close together (at least from what it looks like)?

it may be the angle, but it looks like your feet are really close together, maybe widening the stance a tad might help? i dunno, i've always seen heels at ~shoulder width

my feet are about shoulder width apart. do it that way because it feels natural to me.

[wrkoutfrq]

my feet are about shoulder width apart. do it that way because it feels natural to me.

ah ok, so it was just the angle... insane depth BTW, great ROM

[gewaltiger]

strong but how much do you c&j + snatch?
if you arent doing as much as me then its absolutely pointless to to berserk on squats. (125/156)
because thats my max squat

[squatnoob405]

strong but how much do you c&j + snatch?
if you arent doing as much as me then its absolutely pointless to to berserk on squats. (125/156)
because thats my max squat

im not doing olys anymore. im doing the squats for strength training in preparation for better sprinting/jumping.

i just posted here about the squat form because i beleive this crowd is more knowledgable and dont have time for BS.. i have lots of respect for olympic lifters

[thejdeck]

Hey, I know you said your trying to avoid the stretch reflex, but your still causing one. Notice after you start coming up, you quickly drop down and go up causes a phasic stretch reflex.

[gewaltiger]

yeah, you do one bounce out of the hole anyway, might aswell eliminate the pause fully

[Iberian80]

Hey, I know you said your trying to avoid the stretch reflex, but your still causing one. Notice after you start coming up, you quickly drop down and go up causes a phasic stretch reflex.

Machines work fine from static positions, humans not as much. If your goal is to relieve your joints from as much stress as possible while still squatting remove the pause.

[raffiki]

Lol at all the speculation from people who squat half that.

My vote is that strength wasn't there. The upper back rounding isn't really a weakness. Just like the deadlift it effectively shortens the torso and gives you better leverage.

It's very good form for a long femured guy.

[Iberian80]

Lol at all the speculation from people who squat half that.

My vote is that strength wasn't there. The upper back rounding isn't really a weakness. Just like the deadlift it effectively shortens the torso and gives you better leverage.

It's very good form for a long femured guy.

What speculation are you referring to? Pause squats add stress to the tendons. No speculation there.

[breathinglife]

If you really want to develop that sort of strength from a dead start, stay tight in the hole.

Your form is fine, but I'm curious as to why you are doing paused squats if you are still going to bounce out of the hole. This makes for a very awkward exercise.

You are doing a "paused" squat, but then you go up, and sink back down, using this little bounce to jump out of the hole. It's the equivalent of pausing on your chest in a bench press, but then sinking the bar into your chest and trampolining it. It's just another way to gain momentum and utilize stretch reflex.

Unless you do your standing vertical from a full squat, you're probably better off doing a normal Oly squat. In the same way, cleans are probably a better choice for developing your starting strength on a sprint.

[squatnoob405]

If you really want to develop that sort of strength from a dead start, stay tight in the hole.

Your form is fine, but I'm curious as to why you are doing paused squats if you are still going to bounce out of the hole. This makes for a very awkward exercise.

You are doing a "paused" squat, but then you go up, and sink back down, using this little bounce to jump out of the hole. It's the equivalent of pausing on your chest in a bench press, but then sinking the bar into your chest and trampolining it. It's just another way to gain momentum and utilize stretch reflex.

Unless you do your standing vertical from a full squat, you're probably better off doing a normal Oly squat. In the same way, cleans are probably a better choice for developing your starting strength on a sprint.

not going to deny, i do get a bit of a momentum by allowing my body to dip a bit before exploding up. this stretch reflex IMO is a lot more controlled/safer compared to going down and with the bar and reversing that momentum. i feel i control the bar more if the concentric starts from a dead start.

also, the lower i dip on an SVJ, the higher i usually get.

thanks for the replies.

[Iberian80]

im not doing olys anymore. im doing the squats for strength training in preparation for better sprinting/jumping.

i just posted here about the squat form because i beleive this crowd is more knowledgable and dont have time for BS.. i have lots of respect for olympic lifters

Odd you came here for advice but after several attempts at explaining the flaws in using pause squats to spare your tendons and ligaments you respond with a IMO argument.

[jcameron28]

Odd you came here for advice but after several attempts at explaining the flaws in using pause squats to spare your tendons and ligaments you respond with a IMO argument.

you have the exact same type of argument. "IMO a force applied on the tendons at the end range of motion for a longer period of time is worse for tendon/ligament health than a slightly larger force applied for a shorter period of time", just as brosciency as the notion that a well controlled ballistic full squat will tear up your knees. Really it is a matter of personal preference and if he intuitively feels safer and more comfortable with pause squats there is no reason for him to not do them considering his goals.

[Iberian80]

you have the exact same type of argument. "IMO a force applied on the tendons at the end range of motion for a longer period of time is worse for tendon/ligament health than a slightly larger force applied for a shorter period of time", just as brosciency as the notion that a well controlled ballistic full squat will tear up your knees. Really it is a matter of personal preference and if he intuitively feels safer and more comfortable with pause squats there is no reason for him to not do them considering his goals.

IMO you added.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194098
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16869706

There are plenty of studies like these that with out a doubt measure the force applied to the various ligaments in the knee. The greater the flex of the knee the greater the forces are applied to many of the tendons in the knee is also without doubt.

Now you can argue that by increasing tension at the greater range of motion is key to developing strength in the tendons in the knee. There are little in the way of studies to support or refute this. There is one that has been done indicating that lifters have less in the way of damage when doing squats with 1.5x bw than non-lifters had doing squats with 30 pounds over body weight. Experience would confirm this to be true, we know that training muscles/ligaments/bones get stronger in response to stress.

You can call it broscience but pausing at the bottom of a squat where the forces to the ligaments is near maximum does not make sense. If you are squatting with frequency and intensity as both power lifters and olympic lifters do it again stands to reason that minimizing the stress on the ligaments is ideal. Over the lifetime of a lifter the knees will probably be the worst off and it would take a long term study to bear out the benefits of pause squats vs full squats vs parallel squats. I don't see that study ever happening so at this point you have to look at the knee and how the forces are applied in the squat and make your own determination. Using how it feels is part of that for sure but at the same time not looking at the physiology is foolish.

[jcameron28]

You can call it broscience but pausing at the bottom of a squat where the forces to the ligaments is near maximum does not make sense. If you are squatting with frequency and intensity as both power lifters and olympic lifters do it again stands to reason that minimizing the stress on the ligaments is ideal. Over the lifetime of a lifter the knees will probably be the worst off and it would take a long term study to bear out the benefits of pause squats vs full squats vs parallel squats. I don't see that study ever happening so at this point you have to look at the knee and how the forces are applied in the squat and make your own determination. Using how it feels is part of that for sure but at the same time not looking at the physiology is foolish.

Both those studies show that the greatest shearing forces occur at the bottom of the squat, nobody was arguing against that. To play the devils advocate I could just as easily argue that it does not make sense to increase the forces on the ligaments by decelerating the load more quickly and using your stretch reflex to squat heavier weights. There doesn't seem to be any really definitive reasons that one would be healthier than the other and there are no studies on it so it is entirely speculative = your opinion. Most people, including olylifters would be well served and haven't had any problems with a normal full squat but if he wants to pause squat for his goals I can't think of a clear reason not to, other than someone's opinion.

[gewaltiger]

i'm not saying anything either way, but i know that taranenko squatted with a 2 second pause every time (i think i heard it on a documentary) as do a few other lifters. but for the majority, they bounce out since that mimicks the oly lift receive

[Iberian80]

i'm not saying anything either way, but i know that taranenko squatted with a 2 second pause every time (i think i heard it on a documentary) as do a few other lifters. but for the majority, they bounce out since that mimicks the oly lift receive

Taranenko was rediculous. In both of these 265kg+ lifts he gets slammed in the hole and still muscles his way out of it.

The SHW class almost seems like a different sport because of how much weight you can carry. Most of the other classes have to cut weight to stay in their class which means only the mass that yeilds the best results can be kept. A SHW can add any mass that helps even marginally. Building up a squat that is far greater than your clean is okay while a lighter lifter can't afford to keep the extra strength because it carries over less than having mass elsewhere or having a faster muscle system. Though we all know Mark Henry had incredible leg strength but still couldn't lift what these "less strong" lifters could.

[squatnoob405]

IMO you added.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194098
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16869706

There are plenty of studies like these that with out a doubt measure the force applied to the various ligaments in the knee. The greater the flex of the knee the greater the forces are applied to many of the tendons in the knee is also without doubt.

Now you can argue that by increasing tension at the greater range of motion is key to developing strength in the tendons in the knee. There are little in the way of studies to support or refute this. There is one that has been done indicating that lifters have less in the way of damage when doing squats with 1.5x bw than non-lifters had doing squats with 30 pounds over body weight. Experience would confirm this to be true, we know that training muscles/ligaments/bones get stronger in response to stress.

You can call it broscience but pausing at the bottom of a squat where the forces to the ligaments is near maximum does not make sense. If you are squatting with frequency and intensity as both power lifters and olympic lifters do it again stands to reason that minimizing the stress on the ligaments is ideal. Over the lifetime of a lifter the knees will probably be the worst off and it would take a long term study to bear out the benefits of pause squats vs full squats vs parallel squats. I don't see that study ever happening so at this point you have to look at the knee and how the forces are applied in the squat and make your own determination. Using how it feels is part of that for sure but at the same time not looking at the physiology is foolish.

again, i am using LESS weight in a paused squat = less stress on the body. also, if a force is distributed in a longer period of time, the less "high impact" it will be. its just physics. tendons/joints are not bearing the majority of the load at the pause. i keep all muscles tight. my hamstrings/glutes gets involved a lot.

i've done 4-5reps of paused squats with moderate-heavy weight and i feel the difference in hamstings/glute involvement compared to regular squats.

[Iberian80]

again, i am using LESS weight in a paused squat = less stress on the body. also, if a force is distributed in a longer period of time, the less "high impact" it will be. its just physics. tendons/joints are not bearing the majority of the load at the pause. i keep all muscles tight. my hamstrings/glutes gets involved a lot.

i've done 4-5reps of paused squats with moderate-heavy weight and i feel the difference in hamstings/glute involvement compared to regular squats.

1. Less weight = less stress True
2. Force = mass*acceleration. The force will be less due to the slower speed and lower weights. This though doesn't help your tendons when it comes to the fact they still have to support that mass in the position that is the most damaging to them.
3. While they don't bear a majority of the load they bear the greatest load when knee flexation is greater.
4. Glutes/Hamstrings will get more of a work out in pause squats.

Take a look at this picture: kneechart[1].jpg

When those ligaments are fully stretched with a large load is when they under the most stress, the longer it is held there the more stress is applied. If you took a rubber band and stretched it over the corner of a table you can see how the stress increase with load. Leaving it there fully extended and under a large load weakens that rubber band.

No doubt that squats in general over time will take a toll on your knees. I have not found a study that shows reflexive stress to be less than static stress of vice versa. Given how our bodies work I vote for reflexive movements versus isometric holds.

[babylover]

I mean it with much love when I say what I am about to say...

but that the **** is it with western lifters that post on the internet and over thinking the hell out of everything? Especially in weightlifting?

I switched to PL back in April. Added insane numbers to my deadlift and squat. Came back to Oly lifting and what do you ya know? A comofrtable double with 160kg with a previous best of a hard 160kg last year.

Just... yeah.

Less thinking, more squatting.

[squatnoob405]

1. Less weight = less stress True
2. Force = mass*acceleration. The force will be less due to the slower speed and lower weights. This though doesn't help your tendons when it comes to the fact they still have to support that mass in the position that is the most damaging to them.3. While they don't bear a majority of the load they bear the greatest load when knee flexation is greater.
4. Glutes/Hamstrings will get more of a work out in pause squats.

Take a look at this picture: Attachment 3765233

When those ligaments are fully stretched with a large load is when they under the most stress, the longer it is held there the more stress is applied. If you took a rubber band and stretched it over the corner of a table you can see how the stress increase with load. Leaving it there fully extended and under a large load weakens that rubber band.

No doubt that squats in general over time will take a toll on your knees. I have not found a study that shows reflexive stress to be less than static stress of vice versa. Given how our bodies work I vote for reflexive movements versus isometric holds.

totally agree. thanks for the analysis. only thing id still like to point out is during an explosive reversal of a regular heavy squat, the peak force (even for a very small amount of time) is still greater compared to a lesser force distributed in a longer period.

this is also why shock plyometrics results to more injuries if performed incorrectly. a vertical jump landing only takes a few milliseconds. landing forces exceeding 4-5xBW (applied in milliseconds) is considerably more dangerous than a 3xBW 1/2 squat reversal (on a regular non-paused partial squat) done in half a second.

i squat every single day for months now and to be in the safe side, id rather pause in the hole with my tendons/muscles isometrically supporting 440lbs in 800milliseconds, than ballistically reversing 495lbs in 300miliseconds. i could be wrong but so far its working for me. im still not broken

[squatnoob405]

I mean it with much love when I say what I am about to say...

but that the **** is it with western lifters that post on the internet and over thinking the hell out of everything? Especially in weightlifting?

I switched to PL back in April. Added insane numbers to my deadlift and squat. Came back to Oly lifting and what do you ya know? A comofrtable double with 160kg with a previous best of a hard 160kg last year.

Just... yeah.

Less thinking, more squatting.

i squat 7 days a week. still have time to overthink things.