advice on learning ....

[muffinman1996]

just started working my oly-lifts with power cleans and power snatches....and i was wondering how one would go about learning how to do a normal full clean / snatch ...if there are ways to learn form with minimal risk of injury.

[Prevtzer]

just started working my oly-lifts with power cleans and power snatches....and i was wondering how one would go about learning how to do a normal full clean / snatch ...if there are ways to learn form with minimal risk of injury.

Get a coach if you can!

[ManWithCurls]

just started working my oly-lifts with power cleans and power snatches....and i was wondering how one would go about learning how to do a normal full clean / snatch ...if there are ways to learn form with minimal risk of injury.

Hi,

The best way to learn the full lift, without supervision, is to power them up and ride them down.

For power cleans, you'd want to:

- Power clean the barbell to your shoulders. Use good technique.
- Stand up with kneed locked.
- Squat down with barbell on collarbone (front squat)
- Stand up, drop barbell.
- Repeat. Do doubles (sets of 2 reps) for lots of sets, 10 to 20 sets with a weight that is heavy but not grinding-heavy-ass.

I have written a lengthy tutorial on how to perform a correct power clean. You can find it here:

http://www.manlycurls.com/2011/09/20...e-power-clean/

For the snatch, you'd do:

- Power snatch the weight.
- Stand up with knees locked and barbell still overhead in snatch position.
- Drop down in squat (overhead squat)
- Stand up erected with weight still overhead in snatch position.
- Carefully lower the barbell to behind the neck.
- Push press the barbell up from behind the neck into the same overhead snatch position.
- Snatch squat again.
- Rise from the squat, stand erected, drop the barbell to the floor.
- Repeat. Again, do doubles and anywhere from 10-20 sets.

Do this for 4 weeks. Then get back to us on how to transition and "look for the barbell". There are other exercises which will teach you this but for now you need to get the motion of squatting with weights on your collarbone and overhead.

If you have any questions, feel free to let me know.

All the best.

[gewaltiger]

just my 2 cents, but i'd never ever even have a beginner get in the habit of "riding" a lift down. if it's a power clean, power clean it. then practice the full lift with lighter weights or something until you get it down. it could cause problems in the future and be harder to get under the bar fast

[olyw8lifter]

just my 2 cents, but i'd never ever even have a beginner get in the habit of "riding" a lift down. if it's a power clean, power clean it. then practice the full lift with lighter weights or something until you get it down. it could cause problems in the future and be harder to get under the bar fast

The problem with your approach, that I've seen coaching people, is that even with light weight, the lifter will power it, even if you tell them to catch at bottom. they have to ride it down to get a feel for what that position feels like. However, if you keep them doing that and NEVER power a lift, they will eventually start catching the bar in the bottom position. I have a lifter now that is just like that. The light weights are too light to keep them from powering the lift!! Just my opinion and what I've seen in over 10yrs of competing and coaching this sport!!

[ManWithCurls]

just my 2 cents, but i'd never ever even have a beginner get in the habit of "riding" a lift down. if it's a power clean, power clean it. then practice the full lift with lighter weights or something until you get it down. it could cause problems in the future and be harder to get under the bar fast

It is not a habit. Read my post. I said 4 weeks, then gets back to us and he will do something else (learn to transition and drop under). He has to start somewhere and feel the full body motion of what a snatch or clean entails. Once he knows what positions to hit then he can start making it fluid, instead of viewing the lift in sections.

Under no supervision (dedicated coach on site) and as a newbie, the way I outlined is the most efficient way to learn the full lifts. Also, he is looking for minimal injury-risk scenarios, and having a newbie doing full snatches is not precisely that (e.g I have had 100 kgs drop on my knee from missing a snatch, and I wasn't a newbie).

[gewaltiger]

i've had a 160kg clean drop on my knee from my elbows not rotating fast enough and it hardly affected me the next day, jus' sayin. i'd say to have them never ride it down because then they also develop a fear to dropping fast to catch a heavy heavy weight, it creates many mental barriers. sure they can be overcome but there's more efficient ways of doing it i believe. i've actually acquired more injuries as an experienced lifter doing the full lifts vs. a newbie weirdly enough. to say that doing a full lift = more injuries then i think you're wrong. now he'll be hesitant to even try to be fast and fluid with a full lift cuz you scared the **** out of him
i realise that ManWithCurls said to do this for only 4 weeks, so my post is slightly directed towards (you) and mostly towards olyw8lifter.
btw i dont care if you have 10 years under your belt. you can have 10 years and still c+j 100kgs, you're nothing to me. it doesnt mean you know everything

[threehundredfive]

To OP, get on YouTube and watch some lifting technique videos, pendlay has some good ones on californiastrength.com

My advice on learning is to never stop, your technique can always get better just like your knowledge of the lifts.

As far as the side topic;

I agree with gewaltiger

Riding it down enforces bad habit, catch it where you catch it and stand up with it, if you want a feeling for the position do a full squat once you power it. Once in a while riding it down happens regardless anyways.

You must get used to pulling yourself under the bar as fast as possible. Riding it down doesn't help this in my opinion.

[GoJu]

Flexibility is more important than technique or mental cues, get mobile enough that you can drop very quickly into the full front squat and the technique 'issues' will go away.

[Iberian80]

To OP, get on YouTube and watch some lifting technique videos, pendlay has some good ones on californiastrength.com

My advice on learning is to never stop, your technique can always get better just like your knowledge of the lifts.

As far as the side topic;

I agree with gewaltiger

Riding it down enforces bad habit, catch it where you catch it and stand up with it, if you want a feeling for the position do a full squat once you power it. Once in a while riding it down happens regardless anyways.

You must get used to pulling yourself under the bar as fast as possible. Riding it down doesn't help this in my opinion.

^Going to second this. The videos at cal-strength are the same method the Russians taught and are very well done.

If I was starting over and trying to do things right here is what I would do (excluding getting a coach):

1. Take my laptop out to my garage and watch the videos
2. Practice with the bar on each step till I felt pretty good
3. Work out. Don't do any of the lifts just spend some time on legs/core/back start practicing OHS because these will help get a feel for the bar
4. Repeat till I felt really consistent and confident. At least a couple of weeks probably closer to 4 weeks.
5. Put some 10kgs on and take some video. (This adds a new dynamic of starting point. It is hard to perfect that in the top down method of learning)
6. Post videos and ask for feedback.
7. Make corrections and add weight.

Repeat step 7 for the next 20 years.

[muffinman1996]

seems like a lot of diffrent opinions and i see where all of you are coming from....i have been watching a ton of vids on youtube and getting some good info but i felt i needed more (thats why i made the thread)

i am doing squats / snatches today and will take vids....might try to do both that was suggested
-power snatch then OH squat it
-attempt a full snatch w/ super light weight

thanks to everyone that gave suggestions i really do appreciate it!!!

also other things.... on both the lifts i feel like i have a mean pull off the bottom (dead is 450+, squat is 400+ raw) but my second pull is weak! .....any exercises that are good for working the second pull, i have tried this in the video below




and this is a 175 power clean, most i have ever gotten is 200

[disgorge89]

Here would be my process:

1. Make sure you have sufficient mobility in the starting position. Many people can't even extend their lumbar spine properly. Stretch foam roll MOBwod etc.
2. Develop sufficient stability/mobility in bottom position of clean+snatch. I'd say an arbitrary pre-requisite would be being able to snatch sots press the bar without coming up on the toes.
3. Start doing full lifts from the mid thigh/high hang and begin gradually working down as technical flaws are eliminated.


As far as your powercleans, you have most of the familiar beginner mistakes. Early arm bend and a "2 stage rack". To fix this, try doing a complex of 2 pulls from the floor followed by a clean from the high hang, focusing on keeping arms totally straight on the pulls and focusing more on thrusting hips forward and up than contracting your traps.

[muffinman1996]

inb4tattoo@15.....

95 lb snatches ....



full cleans .



**my power snatches still feel really weird and not right, my full cleans on tthe other hand with 95lbs felt like second nature....was going to try with 135 but wanted to come check in here first to make sure i do not develop bad habits...

-thank you to all for advice!

[olyw8lifter]

i realise that ManWithCurls said to do this for only 4 weeks, so my post is slightly directed towards (you) and mostly towards olyw8lifter.
btw i dont care if you have 10 years under your belt. you can have 10 years and still c+j 100kgs, you're nothing to me. it doesnt mean you know everything

I don't claim to know everything, just wanting to point out where I'm coming from. I'm also not saying that it's the only way to do it. I'll also freely admit that although I've been lifting that long, I'm not an official coach with certification through USAW or anywhere else. All I'm pointing out is my own personal experience working with lifters. It's definitely NOT the only way to do it, and if you get good results with lifters by teaching the way you do, then more power to you. There are many ways to teach the lifts and get people to move some serious weight.

I didn't post what I did to start a pissing contest about who's way is best to coach newbies in the lifts, merely to point out my opinion. I know that it doesn't agree with everyone else's. Now I'll quietly remove myself from this forum and let you all manage the people learning to lift!!

[threehundredfive]

inb4tattoo@15.....

95 lb snatches ....



full cleans .



**my power snatches still feel really weird and not right, my full cleans on tthe other hand with 95lbs felt like second nature....was going to try with 135 but wanted to come check in here first to make sure i do not develop bad habits...

-thank you to all for advice!

your correct your power snatches neeed more practice.

if you slow down your video, you will notice you jump and land with the bar in front of you and muscle it over your head. You should drop into your power snatch alot sooner, you should think about pulling yourself under faster each time instead of jumping, you should spread your legs and get under the bar and land on your heels.

Your clean should be pulled more it needs to sweep into your hips before you pull it up, you need to drop underneath it as fast as possible and catch it with your clavicles or shoulders, not your hands, raise those elbows faster each time and it should be easier you should land in the same or similar position as your front squat.

check out these links for the full motions, hope they help, cant post links so i edited them a little:

flickr.com/photos/38313689@N00/6180056759/in/set-72157627622745425/
i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z381/nponce0/lu_xiaojun.jpg

[gewaltiger]

I don't claim to know everything, just wanting to point out where I'm coming from. I'm also not saying that it's the only way to do it. I'll also freely admit that although I've been lifting that long, I'm not an official coach with certification through USAW or anywhere else. All I'm pointing out is my own personal experience working with lifters. It's definitely NOT the only way to do it, and if you get good results with lifters by teaching the way you do, then more power to you. There are many ways to teach the lifts and get people to move some serious weight.

I didn't post what I did to start a pissing contest about who's way is best to coach newbies in the lifts, merely to point out my opinion. I know that it doesn't agree with everyone else's. Now I'll quietly remove myself from this forum and let you all manage the people learning to lift!!

it seems you were trying to get a n00b to take your advice for these reasons you were gloating about. next time don't announce your "qualifications". to be honest, i don't see anybody on this board that's nearly as knowledgeable as my oly mentor. that's a shame.

[LudiWithKnives]

The problem with your approach, that I've seen coaching people, is that even with light weight, the lifter will power it, even if you tell them to catch at bottom. they have to ride it down to get a feel for what that position feels like. However, if you keep them doing that and NEVER power a lift, they will eventually start catching the bar in the bottom position. I have a lifter now that is just like that. The light weights are too light to keep them from powering the lift!! Just my opinion and what I've seen in over 10yrs of competing and coaching this sport!!

whats wrong with catching in the bottom position?

just my 2 cents, but i'd never ever even have a beginner get in the habit of "riding" a lift down. if it's a power clean, power clean it. then practice the full lift with lighter weights or something until you get it down. it could cause problems in the future and be harder to get under the bar fast

so is this the 2 spectrums of training?

pull hard, catch high and ride down
OR
pull enough and get under the bar quick

which one do you guys prefer and why?

[feces99]

whats wrong with catching in the bottom position?



so is this the 2 spectrums of training?

pull hard, catch high and ride down
OR
pull enough and get under the bar quick

which one do you guys prefer and why?

the best way is the latter. This video tells all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8cNX0c3YqQ

[gewaltiger]

and this one

[feces99]

and this one

...I know what i want for Christmas this year...

[LudiWithKnives]

the best way is the latter. This video tells all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8cNX0c3YqQ

recently ive been told to do the former when ive been doing the latter by other weightlifters so just getting peoples opinions

[scarboro]

recently ive been told to do the former when ive been doing the latter by other weightlifters so just getting peoples opinions

Lol I just started doing the lifts but my body doesn't want to drop fast. It takes a long time for me to stop thinking about pulling high and just drop down. I muscle clean 8/10 times and the other 2 times get either a power or full clean randomly. I wish I could just drop fast like Oleg.

[Iberian80]

Lol I just started doing the lifts but my body doesn't want to drop fast. It takes a long time for me to stop thinking about pulling high and just drop down. I muscle clean 8/10 times and the other 2 times get either a power or full clean randomly. I wish I could just drop fast like Oleg.

Oleg has a body style that lets himdrop superfast. Look how short his arms and legs and trunk are. If you are built more like Urik Vardanian you may still be wicked fast but it won't look as unreal as Oleg.

[gewaltiger]

ugh, lay off the "body style" thing, you can still be super fast. he's fast because he's fast. c'mon.

[olyw8lifter]

it seems you were trying to get a n00b to take your advice for these reasons you were gloating about. next time don't announce your "qualifications". to be honest, i don't see anybody on this board that's nearly as knowledgeable as my oly mentor. that's a shame.

I was not trying to get a Noob to take my advice, as I never gave advice, manwithcurls did. I only agreed with him. And I don't know what gloating I did, I merely stated what I have seen in coaching lifters. Everybody here seems to do that, but they're not getting called out for gloating!!

Op, good luck with learning to do the full lifts!! I would recommend getting a coach if you can.

[Iberian80]

ugh, lay off the "body style" thing, you can still be super fast. he's fast because he's fast. c'mon.

Did you read my post? Urik is fast too as I mentioned, the only difference is that Oleg looks unreal because of his body style. He is 5'5" at 77kg that is short. It looks different when you are half a foot taller. For someone watching videos of lifters and then trying to immitate them you need to be aware of body styles and even different techniques they use because of their particular build.

Your build is very important to how you lift.

[gewaltiger]

i dont focus on my build when i want to improve my lifts, i focus on my approach, attitude and technique, jus' sayin.

[gewaltiger]

kakhi's "trunk" isn't that short and he's unreal.


neither is naim's (compared to the rest of his body)

[Iberian80]

kakhi's "trunk" isn't that short and he's unreal.


neither is naim's (compared to the rest of his body)

As you mentioned all of them are fast, it is just some look faster than others because of their technique and their body. Both Naim and Kakhi have short legs/arms which helps make them faster under the bar. You give them longer legs and arms and they will have to pull a greater distance which makes the lift "slower" in a sense because it does take more time.

Trying to lift like Naim won't work for most of us because we don't have his proportions. Technique is individualized for each of us. Just trying to follow general guidelines only works if you are a general example.

[muffinman1996]

your correct your power snatches neeed more practice.

if you slow down your video, you will notice you jump and land with the bar in front of you and muscle it over your head. You should drop into your power snatch alot sooner, you should think about pulling yourself under faster each time instead of jumping, you should spread your legs and get under the bar and land on your heels.

Your clean should be pulled more it needs to sweep into your hips before you pull it up, you need to drop underneath it as fast as possible and catch it with your clavicles or shoulders, not your hands, raise those elbows faster each time and it should be easier you should land in the same or similar position as your front squat.

check out these links for the full motions, hope they help, cant post links so i edited them a little:

flickr.com/photos/38313689@N00/6180056759/in/set-72157627622745425/
i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z381/nponce0/lu_xiaojun.jpg

Thanks you for the advice, i somewhat understand what you are saying and will try it out!

I was not trying to get a Noob to take my advice, as I never gave advice, manwithcurls did. I only agreed with him. And I don't know what gloating I did, I merely stated what I have seen in coaching lifters. Everybody here seems to do that, but they're not getting called out for gloating!!

Op, good luck with learning to do the full lifts!! I would recommend getting a coach if you can.

thank you! but dont think getting a coach is in the cards!