Does the timing and method apply to creatine?

[MBipson]

Does taking taking creatine with fast acting carbs such as grape juice actually yield any benefits in its absorption, i keep reading that it should be taken with some form of fast acting carbs?

Does the timing of it matter too? for example pos or pre workout? or just having it every morning, what are your opinions?

Also does it need to be fully dissolved in the water and then its good to drink?

i know meal timing is irrelevant and its all about hitting macros, but still confused when it comes to creatine

is a loading phase necessary?

creapure creatine mono, this is the best one right? thanks

[jdjprimer19]

Does taking taking creatine with fast acting carbs such as grape juice actually yield any benefits in its absorption, i keep reading that it should be taken with some form of fast acting carbs?

Does the timing of it matter too? for example pos or pre workout? or just having it every morning, what are your opinions?

Also does it need to be fully dissolved in the water and then its good to drink?

i know meal timing is irrelevant and its all about hitting macros, but still confused when it comes to creatine

is a loading phase necessary?

creapure creatine mono, this is the best one right? thanks

1) Just consume it with a shake before or after your workout. It really isn't going to matter.

2) Timing is insignificant. Once you have met the saturation point, you are done. Maintain it with a 3-5g dose (this does not need to be daily). It takes about 30 days to return to baseline once creatine is discontinued.

3) No.

4) A loading phase is not necessary. Take 3-5g per day and you will eventually reach the creatine saturation point. It may take longer without a loading phase, but there is no need to rush the process.

5) I am not sold on German creatine being absolutely better than other forms. This seems to be hearsay.

[MBipson]

1) Just consume it with a shake before or after your workout. It really isn't going to matter.

2) Timing is insignificant. Once you have met the saturation point, you are done. Maintain it with a 3-5g dose (this does not need to be daily). It takes about 30 days to return to baseline once creatine is discontinued.

3) No.

4) A loading phase is not necessary. Take 3-5g per day and you will eventually reach the creatine saturation point. It may take longer without a loading phase, but there is no need to rush the process.

5) I am not sold on German creatine being absolutely better than other forms. This seems to be hearsay.

Hey, thanks

Can anyone shed some light too?

[PhiSig2298]

Hey, thanks

Can anyone shed some light too?

No more light to be shed.. Mixing with carbs wont do anything special. Like he said, it's not the speed of it reaching your muscles, it's the saturation. Loading phase is basically a marketing scheme (the more you use, the more you'll have to buy sooner).

[rhizome]

No more light to be shed.. Mixing with carbs wont do anything special. Like he said, it's not the speed of it reaching your muscles, it's the saturation. Loading phase is basically a marketing scheme (the more you use, the more you'll have to buy sooner).

lolwut? Loading isn't a marketing scheme. Loading has been used in the vast majority of creatine research and it's PROVEN to quickly elevate muscle creatine. Now we researchers would rather be able to performance test people in 5-7 days rather than waiting a month which means more time and chances for non-compliance.

[US_Ranger]

lolwut? Loading isn't a marketing scheme. Loading has been used in the vast majority of creatine research and it's PROVEN to quickly elevate muscle creatine. Now we researchers would rather be able to performance test people in 5-7 days rather than waiting a month which means more time and chances for non-compliance.

Question:

Does the loading phase, as suggested by companies and research, take into account natural creatine intake from meat based sources or is it assuming baseline levels that are only affected by supplementation?

[PhiSig2298]

lolwut? Loading isn't a marketing scheme. Loading has been used in the vast majority of creatine research and it's PROVEN to quickly elevate muscle creatine. Now we researchers would rather be able to performance test people in 5-7 days rather than waiting a month which means more time and chances for non-compliance.

Ok my bad.. Got any research for me to read? I'd like to learn more. I thought your body could only handle so much at a time & that's why saturation is important?

[dylmill]

Also does it need to be fully dissolved in the water and then its good to drink?

creapure creatine mono, this is the best one right? thanks

It does not need to be dissolved, however the longer it sits in a liquid, the more it loses its effect/concentration. Also, micronized creatine has significant benefits over monohydrate, but there is much debate about this. The main reason being that creatine monohydrate gets converted to creatinine, which is toxic to your liver. You also end up absorbing much less than you intake. Micronized creatine does not get converted to creatinine, therefore is not toxic, and much more of the creatine is absorbed by the muscles. You also use much smaller and more concentrated doses with the micronized.

[otterakl]

It does not need to be dissolved, however the longer it sits in a liquid, the more it loses its effect/concentration. Also, micronized creatine has significant benefits over monohydrate, but there is much debate about this. The main reason being that creatine monohydrate gets converted to creatinine, which is toxic to your liver. You also end up absorbing much less than you intake. Micronized creatine does not get converted to creatinine, therefore is not toxic, and much more of the creatine is absorbed by the muscles. You also use much smaller and more concentrated doses with the micronized.

This post is nearly all misinformation. I think you are getting mono and CEE mixed up. Please do some more research.

[ko300zx]

It does not need to be dissolved, however the longer it sits in a liquid, the more it loses its effect/concentration. Also, micronized creatine has significant benefits over monohydrate, but there is much debate about this. The main reason being that creatine monohydrate gets converted to creatinine, which is toxic to your liver. You also end up absorbing much less than you intake. Micronized creatine does not get converted to creatinine, therefore is not toxic, and much more of the creatine is absorbed by the muscles. You also use much smaller and more concentrated doses with the micronized.

Derp

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/crea.html

Optimum Micronized Creatine
Ingredients: Creatine Monohydrate

Micronized is simply processing into smaller particles.

Herp

[MITCHAPAL00ZA]

speaking of creatine, do people cycle it? ive been on it for about 4 months now, and im just wondering if people take a few months off in between "cycles"? I honestly dont notice an effect from it, but i still have 1000 grams of it so i figure i might as well use it.

[Ghosting]

Got any research for me to read? I'd like to learn more. I thought your body could only handle so much at a time & that's why saturation is important?

Same here. I thought loading didn't matter.

[in10city]

speaking of creatine, do people cycle it? ive been on it for about 4 months now, and im just wondering if people take a few months off in between "cycles"? I honestly dont notice an effect from it, but i still have 1000 grams of it so i figure i might as well use it.

Because there is research that has shown creatine supplementation inhibits your body's natural production of creatine (which it does but evidence points to it only being temporary) and downregulates creatine transporters (which would result in a drop in muscle creatine levels despite supplementation and would no longer be effective). However relevant long term research (months to years) investigating these topics in humans is lacking.

Details: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post533733393

[Hyruliangoat]

speaking of creatine, do people cycle it? ive been on it for about 4 months now, and im just wondering if people take a few months off in between "cycles"? I honestly dont notice an effect from it, but i still have 1000 grams of it so i figure i might as well use it.

no need to cycle. and ur not going to "feel" anything from taking it. ^^^read post above I forgot to mention that also.

Same here. I thought loading didn't matter.

loading works but its not nessecary. theres a carrying capacity obv of the muscles but rhizome/in10city will be able to explain better than I can about specifically why loading ends up working. I'm assuming just because its more of "forced" absorption despite the already high bioavailaility of the creatine.

some loading studies i had favorited

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287344

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20543729

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19387386

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8828669



the end effect obv is the same a pcr saturation will eventually be reached but yeah.

[MBipson]

(which it does but evidence points to it only being temporary)

So is it a good idea to use it for up to 6mths at a time, then have a cool off period of one month to let the body get used to producing it again, and then start using it again?

[dylmill]

This post is nearly all misinformation. I think you are getting mono and CEE mixed up. Please do some more research.

I did mix up micronized creatine with creatine hydrochloride, you are right. That's my bad. But the information on monohydrate I believe is entirely correct. If you can prove otherwise, then I will reconsider, but because of the creatinine and toxicity I think monohydrate is not as useful as it's made out to be.

[rhizome]

I did mix up micronized creatine with creatine hydrochloride, you are right. That's my bad. But the information on monohydrate I believe is entirely correct. If you can prove otherwise, then I will reconsider, but because of the creatinine and toxicity I think monohydrate is not as useful as it's made out to be.

That's not how it works moron. You make the claim it's up to you to back it up, not up to everyone else to prove you wrong.

But guess what, it's your lucky day. Two for one special with a neg thrown in on the side for good measure.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attach...6&d=1099360168
http://jap.physiology.org/content/97...expansion.html

[dylmill]

That's not how it works moron. You make the claim it's up to you to back it up, not up to everyone else to prove you wrong.

But guess what, it's your lucky day. Two for one special with a neg thrown in on the side for good measure.

I was trying to help out MBipson with information I learned from a source I believe to be accurate and dependable. The source was not found on the internet, but rather from someone who has spent years studying and experimenting in this field. So you are right, I do not have any pages I could pull up on the internet with the information I gave. I am not looking for someone to prove me wrong, I am trying to contribute to this thread with information I believe in. Maybe next time I will only post things I can find an internet source to back it up with, even though that's clearly not going to be an advantage every time, as people are much more apt to put up information with less scientific proof or backing.

[Hyruliangoat]

I was trying to help out MBipson with information I learned from a source I believe to be accurate and dependable. The source was not found on the internet, but rather from someone who has spent years studying and experimenting in this field. So you are right, I do not have any pages I could pull up on the internet with the information I gave. I am not looking for someone to prove me wrong, I am trying to contribute to this thread with information I believe in. Maybe next time I will only post things I can find an internet source to back it up with, even though that's clearly not going to be an advantage every time, as people are much more apt to put up information with less scientific proof or backing.

the info hes been putting up is pubmed herp..

[dylmill]

the info hes been putting up is pubmed herp..

Nah I wasn't doubting his info specifically, as it furthers my claims. I was just saying that theres other info out there that is reliable and not always on the internet. I'm not trying to bring anyone down here guys, I just wanted to help out.

[beef0270]

Nah I wasn't doubting his info specifically, as it furthers my claims. I was just saying that theres other info out there that is reliable and not always on the internet. I'm not trying to bring anyone down here guys, I just wanted to help out.

Yes but your 'source' in this scenario is hearsay. Somebody told you something and you took it face value. If it was true there would be research related to it found somewhere on the internet.

Don't get me wrong 99% of the Internet is bull**** and peoples opinion, but there are reliable sources like PubMed and such that almost anything you want can be found.

[TheWaffleIron]

Guess what time it is, bitches? It's time for more in10city up in this motherf*cker...

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post188236761

This is to applicable to the early loading phase.

Protein- and carbohydrate-induced augmentation of whole body creatine retention in humans.

And related...

Effect of alpha-lipoic acid combined with creatine monohydrate on human skeletal muscle creatine and phos****en concentration

I'll need to find some other references but I believe it seems less important as saturation levels increase ( I haven't looked but there may be something is this thread : http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3319711 )

[tagun]

Isn't the whole "creatine has to be take with simple CHO to augment it's accumulation in muscles" a bro myth?

Why does the research say otherwise:

We would propose, therefore, that ingestion of creatine, in conjunction with a more moderate amount of CHO but in combination with protein, could be used as an alternative and as a more manageable method to maximize muscle creatine accumulation.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/89/3/1165.full

Our laboratory has previously reported that the ingestion of creatine in combination with 94 g of CHO on four occasions each day for 5 days resulted in a 60% greater increase in muscle creatine accumulation compared with the ingestion of creatine alone (5). It was suggested that the augmentation of muscle creatine accumulation occurred as a result of insulin-stimulating sodium-dependent muscle creatine transport (5).

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten...e2=tf_ipsecsha

So IT IS optimal to ingest CHO with creatine to generate an insulin spike and thus accumulate creatine within muscle faster?

Son, I am confuse.

[ko300zx]

Isn't the whole "creatine has to be take with simple CHO to augment it's accumulation in muscles" a bro myth?

Why does the research say otherwise:



http://jap.physiology.org/content/89/3/1165.full



http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten...e2=tf_ipsecsha

So IT IS optimal to ingest CHO with creatine to generate an insulin spike and thus accumulate creatine within muscle faster?

Son, I am confuse.

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but those show that the CHO/Cr consumed together allows for faster accumulation during a typical loading phase (tests done at 5g, 4x a day, for 4 or 5 days). Once saturation is reached this becomes irrelevant. I also consider this rather unnecessary for the average trainee because I don't find much benefit in reaching saturation a day or two earlier when I supplement with creatine for hundreds of days consecutively.

[in10city]

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but those show that the CHO/Cr consumed together allows for faster accumulation during a typical loading phase (tests done at 5g, 4x a day, for 4 or 5 days). Once saturation is reached this becomes irrelevant. I also consider this rather unnecessary for the average trainee because I don't find much benefit in reaching saturation a day or two earlier when I supplement with creatine for hundreds of days consecutively.

Dats correct

There is a lot of misinformation about creatine and the nebulous "insulin spike" and the "take ur creatine with carbz" recommendation to improve muscle uptake. Research has consistently shown that it takes an insulin concentration of upwards of 100 mU/l to make a significant difference in uptake / retention. People don't realize what it takes to acheive that - about 90-10 grams of dextrose, or 50 grams each of dextrose and protein being some of the combinations used thus far. A little sugar or a juicie box isn't going to cut it - 50-100 grams is what's needed to make a "worthwhile" difference. However, it's not necessary for creatine uptake since the creatine transporter is not insulin dependent, it's a sodium-chloride depedent transporter. Research has also consistently shown that muscle creatine can be elevated and maintained without the co-ingestion of carbohydrates. Now jacking up insulin is all well and good and will help during loading but once muscles reach saturation, it's not going to be of any advantage.

[tagun]

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but those show that the CHO/Cr consumed together allows for faster accumulation during a typical loading phase (tests done at 5g, 4x a day, for 4 or 5 days). Once saturation is reached this becomes irrelevant. I also consider this rather unnecessary for the average trainee because I don't find much benefit in reaching saturation a day or two earlier when I supplement with creatine for hundreds of days consecutively.

Dats correct

That's exactly what I thought before stumbling on this research. Got confused and then got straightened out pretty fast. Thanks guys!

[MBipson]

Thanks for your posts, this really cleared up creatine for me - but just out of curiosity, how long do you guys tend to use it for? e.g a couple months on and a week off, or do you supp Creatine year round?

[Tommy W.]

It may just be me, but If I take it just before going to the gym, I can go heavier. 1 teaspoon in a small glass of orange juice.

[GreyKnight]

Thanks for your posts, this really cleared up creatine for me - but just out of curiosity, how long do you guys tend to use it for? e.g a couple months on and a week off, or do you supp Creatine year round?

12 weeks @ 5g ed and Mussel Milk for my PCT.

[NaLLa8705]

1)Once you have met the saturation point, you are done. Maintain it with a 3-5g dose (this does not need to be daily). It takes about 30 days to return to baseline once creatine is discontinued.

Can you explain further on this? If 3-5g is needed daily to continue saturation how can it take 30 days to reach base levels? What would happen if one took 5g every other day? one day a week? one day a month?