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  1. #1
    Registered User hxy's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Too much protein can kick you out of ketosis

    Quote from Lyle McDonald - The Ketogenic Diet:
    -To briefly recap, during the first weeks of ketosis, approximately 75 grams of glucose must
    be produced (the other 18 grams of glucose coming from the conversion of glycerol to glucose) to
    satisfy the brainís requirements of ~100 grams of glucose per day. After approximately 3 weeks
    of ketosis, the brainís glucose requirements drop to approximately 40 grams of glucose. Of this,
    18 grams are derived from the conversion of glycerol, leaving 25 grams of glucose to be made
    from protein.
    Since 58% of all dietary protein will appear in the bloodstream as glucose (3), we can
    determine how much dietary protein is required by looking at different protein intakes and how
    much glucose is produced.

    Protein intake and grams of glucose produced *
    Protein intake (grams) converted into Glucose (grams)
    50---> 27
    100-----> 58
    125----->72.5
    150----->87
    175------->101.5
    200-------->116
    * Assuming a 58% conversion rate


    Summery: dieters should consume zero Carbs on 150g protein diet since protein will provide 87g glucose by process called gluconeogenesis and other glucose will come from fat burning or you should lower protein intake and increase glucose intake from food.
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  2. #2
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    If you do that, you need to eat more protein. Better to eat a few carbs to compensate for the protein loss.

    Worth a read: How Many Carbohydrates Do You Need?

    Originally Posted by Lyle
    Early research into the topic of starvation and low-carbohydrate dieting found that as few as 15 grams of carbohydrates per day can limit nitrogen loss in the body. And raising carbohydrate intake to 50 grams per day severely limits the need for the body to use amino acids for gluoconeogenesis (which is why I suggested setting daily carbs on the low-carb days of The Ultimate Diet 2.0 at 50 grams).

    This occurs via at least two mechanisms:

    1. The increased carb intake maintains blood glucose and insulin at a higher level (inhibiting cortisol release).
    2. The carbohydrate provides glucose for the brain, limiting the need to break down body protein.

    Basically, in the context of dieting, dieters can either jack up dietary protein to cover the increased carbohydrate requirements of dieting or simply eat slightly more carbohydrates to provide them directly. Both have the same end-result. 15-50 grams per day limits the body’s need to break down protein and will allow protein requirements to be set lower than a diet providing essentially zero carbohydrates per day.

    ...snip...

    So, summing up mid-article, the absolute requirement for carbohydrates is zero grams per day. However, depending on protein intake, a practical minimum for carbs lies between 50 grams/day (if someone functions well in ketosis) to 100-120 grams per day (if they don’t function well in ketosis). Let me mention very specifically that I’m not suggesting those numbers are a recommended level, I’m simply using them to represent a practical minimum value.

    Both approaches can work though, as evidenced by the RFL diet he has. Personally, I like the ability to eat a more varied diet when I want.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

    How to bulk: http://70sbig.com/food/

    Diet = http://i52.tinypic.com/21bhop.png
    ...or something like this daily. Problem? ;)

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  3. #3
    Registered User hxy's Avatar
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    Thnx its true worth reading, my protein intake at 125g and my carbs at 10g which supply the body with 87g glucose and the deficient glucose comes from burned fat.
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  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by hxy View Post
    Quote from Lyle McDonald - The Ketogenic Diet:
    -To briefly recap, during the first weeks of ketosis, approximately 75 grams of glucose must
    be produced (the other 18 grams of glucose coming from the conversion of glycerol to glucose) to
    satisfy the brainís requirements of ~100 grams of glucose per day. After approximately 3 weeks
    of ketosis, the brainís glucose requirements drop to approximately 40 grams of glucose. Of this,
    18 grams are derived from the conversion of glycerol, leaving 25 grams of glucose to be made
    from protein.
    Since 58% of all dietary protein will appear in the bloodstream as glucose (3), we can
    determine how much dietary protein is required by looking at different protein intakes and how
    much glucose is produced.

    Protein intake and grams of glucose produced *
    Protein intake (grams) converted into Glucose (grams)
    50---> 27
    100-----> 58
    125----->72.5
    150----->87
    175------->101.5
    200-------->116
    * Assuming a 58% conversion rate


    Summery: dieters should consume zero Carbs on 150g protein diet since protein will provide 87g glucose by process called gluconeogenesis and other glucose will come from fat burning or you should lower protein intake and increase glucose intake from food.

    For some maybe. I have been doing keto for months though and I get 200g of protein easily and probably close to 30 to 40g of carbs daily and unless I carb up which I have only done 3 times I stay in keto.
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  5. #5
    Registered User lvsteven's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hxy View Post


    Summery: dieters should consume zero Carbs on 150g protein diet since protein will provide 87g glucose by process called gluconeogenesis and other glucose will come from fat burning or you should lower protein intake and increase glucose intake from food.
    No... just no.
    You really read the Ketogenic Diet? Because it really doesnt say that.

    Stop overthinking things, and quit spreading this sort of thing about keto.
    Too much protein and not enough FAT will put a ketogenic diet into a problem zone because your body requires a certain ammount of fat in the blood stream to PROTECT the protein you are consuming, however it is not easy for human beings to enter Neoglucogenesis which is what you are suggesting happens with just too much protein.

    And even if you did less than 20g carbs a day and the body metabolized another 75-80g a day, it would not matter because the rate at which you break down the carbs would never put you out of a ketogenic state...

    Large portions of carbs dumped into the bloodstream will knock you out though, not a steady process of converting protein to glucose over a 24 hour period.
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  6. #6
    Registered User hxy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lvsteven View Post
    No... just no.
    You really read the Ketogenic Diet? Because it really doesnt say that.

    Stop overthinking things, and quit spreading this sort of thing about keto.
    Too much protein and not enough FAT will put a ketogenic diet into a problem zone because your body requires a certain ammount of fat in the blood stream to PROTECT the protein you are consuming, however it is not easy for human beings to enter Neoglucogenesis which is what you are suggesting happens with just too much protein.

    And even if you did less than 20g carbs a day and the body metabolized another 75-80g a day, it would not matter because the rate at which you break down the carbs would never put you out of a ketogenic state...

    Large portions of carbs dumped into the bloodstream will knock you out though, not a steady process of converting protein to glucose over a 24 hour period.
    This quote I just copied it and pasted from the Ketogenic book, I think u should read it carefully:
    Liver glycogen and gluconeogenesis
    The initial storage depot of carbohydrate in the body is the liver, which contains enough
    glycogen to sustain the brain’s glucose needs for approximately 12-16 hours (4). We will assume
    for the following discussion that liver glycogen has been depleted, ketosis established, and that
    the only source of glucose is from endogenous fuel stores (i.e. stored bodyfat and protein). The
    effects of food intake on ketosis is discussed in chapter 9.
    After its glycogen has been depleted, the liver is one of the major sources for the production
    of glucose (gluconeogenesis) and it produces glucose from glycerol, lactate/pyruvate and the
    amino acids alanine and glutamine (5,6,25) The kidney also produces glucose as starvation
    proceeds (8).
    Glycerol comes from the breakdown of adipose tissue triglyceride, lactate and pyruvate
    from the breakdown of glycogen and glucose, and alanine and glutamine are released from muscle.
    Since we are ultimately concerned with the loss of muscle tissue during ketosis, gluconeogenesis
    from alanine and glutamine are discussed further.
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  7. #7
    Registered User KwiTT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hxy View Post
    Quote from Lyle McDonald - The Ketogenic Diet:
    -To briefly recap, during the first weeks of ketosis, approximately 75 grams of glucose must
    be produced (the other 18 grams of glucose coming from the conversion of glycerol to glucose) to
    satisfy the brainís requirements of ~100 grams of glucose per day. After approximately 3 weeks
    of ketosis, the brainís glucose requirements drop to approximately 40 grams of glucose. Of this,
    18 grams are derived from the conversion of glycerol, leaving 25 grams of glucose to be made
    from protein.
    Since 58% of all dietary protein will appear in the bloodstream as glucose (3), we can
    determine how much dietary protein is required by looking at different protein intakes and how
    much glucose is produced.

    Protein intake and grams of glucose produced *
    Protein intake (grams) converted into Glucose (grams)
    50---> 27
    100-----> 58
    125----->72.5
    150----->87
    175------->101.5
    200-------->116
    * Assuming a 58% conversion rate


    Summery: dieters should consume zero Carbs on 150g protein diet since protein will provide 87g glucose by process called gluconeogenesis and other glucose will come from fat burning or you should lower protein intake and increase glucose intake from food.
    If this is true, then how does the Dave Palumbo Keto diet work? It's ~60% protein 35% fat 5% carbs.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0904431&page=1
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  8. #8
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KwiTT View Post
    If this is true, then how does the Dave Palumbo Keto diet work? It's ~60% protein 35% fat 5% carbs.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0904431&page=1
    It works just fine.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

    How to bulk: http://70sbig.com/food/

    Diet = http://i52.tinypic.com/21bhop.png
    ...or something like this daily. Problem? ;)

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  9. #9
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    I've never had problems staying in ketosis while doing 30g carbs per day on a slightly higher protein intake then you described (155-160g).

    You're right about the conversion being inefficient, but there's several reasons for the targeted protein intake. So the brain takes it's cut for daily use. Typically the rest is going to be soaked up by your muscles.
    There's a section in his book somewhere that talks about muscle glycogen levels. At not point even while doing keto are you muscle glycogen levels 0.

    The body can't store glucose itself, it can convert it to either fat or glycogen.
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  10. #10
    Registered User hxy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Atavis View Post
    It works just fine.
    First, there is no certainty in diets programs as there is multiple factors effecting diets including genetics and lifestyle, as regard the Dave Palumbo Keto diet there is no studies support what he says but may be worked for others but the ketogenic book provide evidence, resources and studies.
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  11. #11
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hxy View Post
    First, there is no certainty in diets programs as there is multiple factors effecting diets including genetics and lifestyle, as regard the Dave Palumbo Keto diet there is no studies support what he says but may be worked for others but the ketogenic book provide evidence, resources and studies.
    First, sure there there is. Palumbo's diet IS a keto diet, just one with a meal plan that is set for the user, a very very very boring and repetitive meal plan. As such, it doesn't go against the Ketogenic Diet book in any really significant manner. Second, it works. He has plenty of success and proof that the diet plan he put together works. The protein suggested isn't stopping fatloss. Third, here is what the meal plan for a 250 lb man looks like when you input it into Fitday:



    Do you really see a significant difference that's going to hinder fatloss in a healthy active individual?
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

    How to bulk: http://70sbig.com/food/

    Diet = http://i52.tinypic.com/21bhop.png
    ...or something like this daily. Problem? ;)

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  12. #12
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    You are 100% right !! It would be wiser to increase the fat intake because fats work as a sortof armour and shield against the enemy of muscle atrophy and destruction. Besides increasing carbohydrates can kick people out of ketogenic mode and raise the insulin levels leading to fat storage.

    Originally Posted by lvsteven View Post
    No... just no.
    You really read the Ketogenic Diet? Because it really doesnt say that.

    Stop overthinking things, and quit spreading this sort of thing about keto.
    Too much protein and not enough FAT will put a ketogenic diet into a problem zone because your body requires a certain ammount of fat in the blood stream to PROTECT the protein you are consuming, however it is not easy for human beings to enter Neoglucogenesis which is what you are suggesting happens with just too much protein.

    And even if you did less than 20g carbs a day and the body metabolized another 75-80g a day, it would not matter because the rate at which you break down the carbs would never put you out of a ketogenic state...

    Large portions of carbs dumped into the bloodstream will knock you out though, not a steady process of converting protein to glucose over a 24 hour period.
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    Originally Posted by TonyBear View Post
    You are 100% right !! It would be wiser to increase the fat intake because fats work as a sortof armour and shield against the enemy of muscle atrophy and destruction. Besides increasing carbohydrates can kick people out of ketogenic mode and raise the insulin levels leading to fat storage.
    I really hope Atavis calls you a retarded asshat again.
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  14. #14
    Glutes... they are back Cumulonimbus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TonyBear View Post
    You are 100% right !! It would be wiser to increase the fat intake because fats work as a sortof armour and shield against the enemy of muscle atrophy and destruction. Besides increasing carbohydrates can kick people out of ketogenic mode and raise the insulin levels leading to fat storage.
    Stfu already. Insulin is not the only factor that contributes to fat storage. Again a D-, perhaps F attempt from our most credible member, TonyBear.
    Just a weight lifter
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  15. #15
    Eat Yolks, Get Yolked DMurph51's Avatar
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    lolz
    [IIFYM]

    CKD Calculator (copy pasta):
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  16. #16
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ananf72 View Post
    I really hope Atavis calls you a retarded asshat again.
    Why would I do that? Also...

    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

    How to bulk: http://70sbig.com/food/

    Diet = http://i52.tinypic.com/21bhop.png
    ...or something like this daily. Problem? ;)

    FFMI = 24
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