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  1. #1
    Registered User HopingInJehovah's Avatar
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    Did God Know THAT ADAM AND EVE WOULD SIN?

    This is a good article explaining how Adam and Eve had free will in regards to them eating the forbidden fruit. This article should explain how He does not choose in ALL cases to know the future of each individual. I hope you enjoy!

    Did God Know

    THAT ADAM AND EVE WOULD SIN?



    MANY people ask this question in all sincerity. When the issue of God’s permission of wickedness is raised, the sin of the first human pair in the garden of Eden quickly comes into focus. The thought that ‘God knows everything’ may easily lead some to the conclusion that God must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would disobey him.

    If God truly had foreknown that this perfect couple would sin, what would this imply? Such a notion would attribute many negative traits to God. He would seem to be unloving, unjust, and insincere. Some might label it cruel to expose the first humans to something that was foreknown to end badly. God might seem responsible for—or at least an accomplice to—all the badness and suffering that followed throughout history. To some, our Creator would even appear foolish.

    Does Jehovah God, as revealed in the Scriptures, match such a negative description? To answer that, let us examine what the Bible says about the creative works and the personality of Jehovah.

    “It Was Very Good”

    Regarding God’s creation, including the first humans on earth, the Genesis account says: “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31);Adam and Eve were perfectly made, ideally suited to their earthly environment. There was nothing deficient in their makeup. Created “very good,” they were certainly capable of the good conduct that was required of them. They were created “in God’s image.” (Genesis 1:27) So they had the capacity to demonstrate to some degree the godly qualities of wisdom, loyal love, justice, and goodness. Reflecting such qualities would help them to make decisions that would benefit them and bring pleasure to their heavenly Father.

    Jehovah endowed these perfect, intelligent creatures with free will. So they were by no means preprogrammed to please God—like some sort of robot. Think about it. Which would mean more to you—a gift that is given mechanically or one that comes from the heart? The answer is obvious. Likewise, if Adam and Eve had freely chosen to obey God, their obedience would have meant all the more to him. The capacity to choose enabled the first human pair to obey Jehovah out of love.—(Deuteronomy 30:19, 20).
    Righteous, Just, and Good

    The Bible reveals Jehovah’s qualities to us. These qualities make it impossible for him to have anything to do with sin. Jehovah “is a lover of righteousness and justice,” says (Psalm 33:5). Thus, (James 1:13) notes: “With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” Out of fairness and consideration, God warned Adam: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17) The first couple were given a choice between endless life and death. Would it not have been hypocritical for God to warn them against a specific sin while already knowing the bad outcome? As “a lover of righteousness and justice,” Jehovah would not have offered a choice that in reality did not exist.

    Jehovah did not create the first humans as
    automatons programmed for a fixed course


    Jehovah is also abundant in goodness. (Psalm 31:19) Describing God’s goodness, Jesus said: “Who is the man among you whom his son asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he? Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish—he will not hand him a serpent, will he? Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?” (Matthew 7:9-11) God gives “good things” to his creatures. The way humans were created and the Paradise home prepared for them testify to God’s goodness. Would such a good Sovereign be so cruel as to provide a beautiful home that he knew would be taken away? No. Our righteous and good Maker is not to blame for man’s rebellion.

    “Wise Alone”

    The Scriptures also show that Jehovah is “wise alone.” (Romans 16:27) God’s heavenly angels witnessed many manifestations of this boundless wisdom. They began “shouting in applause” when Jehovah brought forth his earthly creations.(Job 38:4-7) No doubt these intelligent spirit creatures followed events in the garden of Eden with great interest. Would it, then, make sense for a wise God, after creating an awe-inspiring universe and an array of marvelous earthly works, to bring forth under the eyes of his angelic sons two unique creatures who he knew were bound to fail? Clearly, to plan such a calamity would not stand to reason.

    Still, someone may object, ‘But how could an all-wise God not have known?’ Granted, a facet of Jehovah’s great wisdom is his capability to know “from the beginning the finale.” (Isaiah 46:9, 10) However, he does not have to use this capability, just as he does not always have to use his immense power to the full. Jehovah wisely uses his ability of foreknowledge selectively. He uses it when it makes sense to do so and fits the circumstances.

    The ability to refrain from using foreknowledge can be illustrated with a feature of modern technology. Someone watching a prerecorded sports match has the option to watch the final minutes first in order to know the outcome. But he does not have to start that way. Who could criticize him if he chose to watch the entire match from the beginning? Similarly, the Creator evidently chose not to see how things would turn out. Rather, he chose to wait and, as events unfolded, see how his earthly children would conduct themselves.

    As mentioned earlier, Jehovah in his wisdom did not create the first humans as automatons programmed for a fixed course. Instead, he lovingly endowed them with free will. By choosing the right course, they could manifest their love, gratitude, and obedience, thereby bringing added delight to themselves and to Jehovah as their heavenly Father.—(Proverbs 27:11;Isaiah 48:18).

    The Scriptures show that on many occasions God did not make use of his ability of foreknowledge. For example, when faithful Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice his son, Jehovah could say: “Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” (Genesis 22:12) On the other hand, there were also occasions when the bad conduct of certain individuals caused God to “feel hurt.” Would he have felt such pain if he had long known what they would do?—(Psalm 78:40, 41;1 Kings 11:9, 10).

    Thus, it is only reasonable to conclude that the all-wise God did not exercise his ability of foreknowledge to know in advance that our first parents would sin. He was not so foolish as to embark on a bizarre venture, using his ability to know the outcome in advance and then staging a mere rerun of what he already knew.

    God knew that Adam and Eve had the ability to act loyally



    "God Is Love”

    God’s adversary, Satan, initiated the rebellion in Eden that resulted in negative consequences, including sin and death. Satan thus was “a man-slayer.” He also proved to be “a liar and the father of the lie.” (John 8:44) Driven by bad motives himself, he strives to attribute bad motives to our loving Creator. It suits him well to shift the blame for man’s sin to Jehovah.

    The quality of love is the strongest reason why Jehovah chose not to know in advance that Adam and Eve would sin. Love is God’s main attribute. “God is love,” says (John 4:8). Love is positive, not negative. It looks for the good in others. Yes, motivated by love, Jehovah God wanted the best for the first human pair.

    Even though God’s earthly children had the option of making an unwise choice, our loving God was not inclined to be pessimistic or to be suspicious of his perfect creatures. He had amply provided for them and had equipped them well. It was only appropriate that God should expect, not rebellion, but loving obedience in return. He knew that Adam and Eve had the ability to act loyally, as was later proved even by imperfect men, such as Abraham, Job, Daniel, and many others.

    “With God all things are possible,” said Jesus. (Matthew 19:26) That is a comforting thought. Jehovah’s love, along with his other dominant attributes of justice, wisdom, and power, guarantees that in due time he can and will remove all the effects of sin and death.—(Revelation 21:3-5).

    Clearly, Jehovah did not know beforehand that the first couple would sin. While he was pained by the disobedience of man and the ensuing suffering, God knew that this temporary situation would not prevent the fulfillment of his eternal purpose for the earth and humans upon it. Why not find out more about that purpose and how you may benefit from its glorious fulfillment?*

    * For more information about God’s purpose for the earth,see Chapter 3 of the book What Does the Bible Really Teach? published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.


    http://www.watchtower.org/e/20110101a/article_01.htm

    Last edited by HopingInJehovah; 09-21-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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  2. #2
    ohaidar potatoe's Avatar
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    I want to know why God let you use this eye sore blue font.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/thisisanameduh

    Thy sea what thou art did there...
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  3. #3
    Registered User HopingInJehovah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by potatoe View Post
    I want to know why God let you use this eye sore blue font.
    *LOL*. What color do you prefer? Also, do you know how to embed an image from the hard drive?
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    Brony Hunter BeefyMcNasty's Avatar
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    A better question is, why was a ****ing apple forbidden? It's an apple...a damn apple. How can eating a piece of fruit be a sin? If there is a God, he's a moron.

    You bring the pepper, I'll bring the Angus.

    “When we look at modern man, we have to face the fact...that modern man suffers from a kind of poverty of the spirit, which stands in glaring contrast to his scientific and technological abundance; We've learned to fly the air like birds, we've learned to swim the seas like fish, and yet we haven't learned to walk the Earth as brothers and sisters...”

    **Self-Employed Crew**
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    He must have given them free will to choose, but I don't see why he always has to play boastful games with Lucifer every five minutes.

    God: haha my new creations have chosen me!!!

    Lucifer: Bet I can tempt them to disobey

    God: Nah aaah they are fully equipped with state of the art obedience go ahead

    Lucifer: BRB

    2 minutes later....

    Lucifer: You dun goofed

    God: what no way

    Lucifer: Go check it out

    God: BRB

    bible tells what happened next

    God: I was so mad I banished them and cursed the snake you went as, other snakes mad as hell they cant fap, oops lol.

    Lucifer: Well you made it easy

    God: How?

    Lucifer: You created Adam first with no pair while pairing the other animals, then you got him a mate quenching his loneliness. She has never felt that loneliness and her faith in you is weaker than his since she is just recently made. So I manipulated her in to thinking she could be like you and create more of what she loved(flowers, unicorns and sh!t)then after she ate it I told her to tell Adam to do it as well. Adam was easy prey because he didn't want to be lonely like before and knew you would banish his mate so he followed her out of love(first Beta).

    God: Hmmm didn't think about that, you wait a few thousand more years I will create a man who will win for sure, it will be is JOB to win.
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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by BeefyMcNasty View Post
    A better question is, why was a ****ing apple forbidden? It's an apple...a damn apple. How can eating a piece of fruit be a sin? If there is a God, he's a moron.

    It was not an apple, someone just put a face to the name fruit, fruit of a woman's womb is not a watermelon. It could have been any type of fruit, not forget that the word eat could have been mistranslated and meant absorb, take in, embrace, etc, but I am just guessing since it would mean tree was too.
    Last edited by Zedbimmer; 09-21-2011 at 03:57 AM.
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    Registered User Muckle_Ewe's Avatar
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    So you haven't actually shown that God didn't know. You've just used passages stating Gods love and speculated that God did not use foreknowledge at that time.


    Some thought's.

    What does God get out of this? He creates us, gives us life etc... What does he get?
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    Originally Posted by Muckle_Ewe View Post
    So you haven't actually shown that God didn't know. You've just used passages stating Gods love and speculated that God did not use foreknowledge at that time.


    Some thought's.

    What does God get out of this? He creates us, gives us life etc... What does he get?
    Side project maybe when he is not dealing with other more important stuff, something for himself only, then like a toy put it in a corner and forgot about it.
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  9. #9
    Registered User HopingInJehovah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Zedbimmer View Post
    He must have given them free will to choose, but I don't see why he always has to play boastful games with Lucifer every five minutes.

    God: haha my new creations have chosen me!!!

    Lucifer: Bet I can tempt them to disobey

    God: Nah aaah they are fully equipped with state of the art obedience go ahead

    Lucifer: BRB

    2 minutes later....

    Lucifer: You dun goofed

    God: what no way

    Lucifer: Go check it out

    God: BRB

    bible tells what happened next

    God: I was so mad I banished them and cursed the snake you went as, other snakes mad as hell they [unnecessary], oops lol.

    Lucifer: Well you made it easy

    God: How?

    Lucifer: You created Adam first with no pair while pairing the other animals, then you got him a mate quenching his loneliness. She has never felt that loneliness and her faith in you is weaker than his since she is just recently made. So I manipulated her in to thinking she could be like you and create more of what she loved(flowers, unicorns and [explicative])then after she ate it I told her to tell Adam to do it as well. Adam was easy prey because he didn't want to be lonely like before and knew you would banish his mate so he followed her out of love(first Beta).

    God: Hmmm didn't think about that, you wait a few thousand more years I will create a man who will win for sure, it will be is JOB to win.


    *LOL*. I have to admit, that was pretty creative/funny. One thing though, you used the name "Lucifer". Lucifer is not the name of the devil. We don't know what his name is. The bible doesn't say.
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  10. #10
    Registered User HopingInJehovah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Muckle_Ewe View Post
    So you haven't actually shown that God didn't know. You've just used passages stating Gods love and speculated that God did not use foreknowledge at that time.


    Some thought's.

    What does God get out of this? He creates us, gives us life etc... What does he get?

    Some good points. He gets nothing. That's the whole point. It's out of unconditional love that He created us, so that we could enjoy life. The only thing He gets is what you and I receive when we feel the love from another human being. And I mean genuine love, not fake or conditional. That was/is His only reason for creating us. This is why we are unique compared to ALL the other living things, inanimate/animate.

    BTW - Did you read ALL of those passages?
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    Originally Posted by Muckle_Ewe View Post
    So you haven't actually shown that God didn't know. You've just used passages stating Gods love and speculated that God did not use foreknowledge at that time.


    Some thought's.

    What does God get out of this? He creates us, gives us life etc... What does he get?
    If you were God, would you not create beings that have a free will to worship you? What else is more important to being God than creating life.
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  12. #12
    Registered User HopingInJehovah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeefyMcNasty View Post
    A better question is, why was a ****ing apple forbidden? It's an apple...a damn apple. How can eating a piece of fruit be a sin? If there is a God, he's a moron.

    Well, as far as we know, it wasn't an apple. The bible doesn't say what kind of fruit it was. The whole point was obedience. It was a simple test to see if Adam and Eve would be obedient to Him. There were tons of other types of trees to eat from, not to mention a wide variety of other types of food. Why did they have to eat from that ONE cotton picken tree?
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    Originally Posted by HopingInJehovah View Post
    Some good points. He gets nothing. That's the whole point. It's out of unconditional love that He created us, so that we could enjoy life. The only thing He gets is what you and I receive when we feel the love from another human being. And I mean genuine love, not fake or conditional. That was/is His only reason for creating us. This is why we are unique compared to ALL the other living things, inanimate/animate.

    BTW - Did you read ALL of those passages?
    I don't understand this unconditional love part. Love for what. Us? He created us, the definition of man didn't exist until he created us. It's not like he saw man somewhere, thought they were pretty cool, and made some of his own. He could have made anything, he could have made man be anything, do anything.

    Why didn't he make it impossible for man to sin? He gave us plenty of other restrictions, can't fly, set height, weight, etc. Why not no sinning?

    Originally Posted by Lord_Lemon View Post
    If you were God, would you not create beings that have a free will to worship you? What else is more important to being God than creating life.
    Wouldn't care if they worshipped me or not. You, or I, have no idea what is more important to God so I dunno how you can even ask that.

    Free will doesn't exist. If God created the initial conditions and is all powerful, he knows what will happen at any time. This means that he decides the life of everything through his selection of initial conditions.
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    Originally Posted by Muckle_Ewe View Post
    I don't understand this unconditional love part. Love for what. Us? He created us, the definition of man didn't exist until he created us. It's not like he saw man somewhere, thought they were pretty cool, and made some of his own. He could have made anything, he could have made man be anything, do anything.

    Why didn't he make it impossible for man to sin? He gave us plenty of other restrictions, can't fly, set height, weight, etc. Why not no sinning?



    Wouldn't care if they worshipped me or not. You, or I, have no idea what is more important to God so I dunno how you can even ask that.

    Free will doesn't exist. If God created the initial conditions and is all powerful, he knows what will happen at any time. This means that he decides the life of everything through his selection of initial conditions.
    We could have just been created by some alien(who would be GOD because he created us) as an experiment or project the left to fend for ourselves. The bible can't not be a direct interpretation because as a man who speaks many different languages(4 lol) it is impossible to directly translate words from one language to another. So in reality the bible is an interpretation of what the real scriptures said not what they actually said.
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    Originally Posted by potatoe View Post
    I want to know why God let you use this eye sore blue font.

    Strong this, thought this might be an interesting topic. Not reading that volume of text and expecially not in green (potatoe are you colourblind?).

    Been meaning to mention that to you. Just because god gave you all the colours of the rainbow does not mean you have to use them.
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    Originally Posted by Zedbimmer View Post
    We could have just been created by some alien(who would be GOD because he created us) as an experiment or project the left to fend for ourselves. The bible can't not be a direct interpretation because as a man who speaks many different languages(4 lol) it is impossible to directly translate words from one language to another. So in reality the bible is an interpretation of what the real scriptures said not what they actually said.
    Seems to be a fair few interpretations and assumptions in this thread.

    I dunno why folk like HIJ can't just see that Adam and Eve is just a story supposed to show why you shouldn't sin.

    Not sin = eternal life with God in paradise.

    Sin = bad.

    Make story showing this.

    Done.
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    Why did God evolve man from apes, did not create Adam & Eve but made people believe a story about sin involving them is the right question?
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    Originally Posted by byrontel View Post
    Why did God evolve man from apes, did not create Adam & Eve but made people believe a story about sin involving them is the right question?
    notsureifserious.wtf.

    To play along with you I have to two choices, first being to address that God made man in his own image so you are saying he is an ape looking being. Two ignore one and say that who many different ways can you make a two legged animal with a omnivorous jaw and brain to fit.
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    Originally Posted by HopingInJehovah View Post
    Innane wall of text that could've been summarized in a damn paragraph
    It's really simple, either God knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen in which case there is no free will; or God does not know things with absolute certainty in which there some practical level of free will. Also an omnibenevolent God would know that Eve was deceived by the devil either way so he wouldn't have blamed them for what he did and he wouldn't have blamed Adam and Eve's children for what they (did not) do.
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    Originally Posted by Lord_Lemon View Post
    If you were God, would you not create beings that have a free will to worship you? What else is more important to being God than creating life.
    apparently, being WORSHIPED by your creation.
    "As sure as the world stands, you jf1 shall spend an eternity in Hell in eternal torment..."
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    Do you realize every time you people retwist scripture to make god seem more plausible, you make Him a little less god?
    "If you slap every moron you meet, your hand gets tired long before the world becomes a better place." ~ Mr Beer

    Blindness to knowledge was his mother and despair of death his father. Darkness and fear gave birth to God. The awareness of truth will kill him.

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    Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post
    Do you realize every time you people retwist scripture to make god seem more plausible, you make Him a little less god?
    i have been trying not to post here anymore.

    but there is so much mental retardation, superstition and pure idiocy among us, that it is impossible to ignore.

    this thread for instance;
    adam and eve are not real. neither is the god of abraham.
    until belief in this fairy-tale mythology is eradicated, i will continue the fight.
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    Originally Posted by jf1 View Post
    i have been trying not to post here anymore.

    but there is so much mental retardation, superstition and pure idiocy among us, that it is impossible to ignore.

    this thread for instance;
    adam and eve are not real. neither is the god of abraham.
    until belief in this fairy-tale mythology is eradicated, i will continue the fight.
    Very correct....
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    If God allows us free will, then why did he prevent Adam from even choosing to eat from the tree of life?
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    Originally Posted by BeefyMcNasty View Post
    A better question is, why was a ****ing apple forbidden? It's an apple...a damn apple. How can eating a piece of fruit be a sin? If there is a God, he's a moron.

    Maybe the fruit is metaphorical for the sin Adam and Eve committed. If the original sin was pride or disobedience, they could have committed it, even if they didn't eat any literal fruit.
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    Yes he knew man had the "potential" to sin, but did not pre-determine mans failure.

    Makes me wonder when Satan started this rebelion? God warned Cain before he killed Able, so did God have a drawn out talk or warn Satan before he embarked on his destructive course? even with the ability to converse and see his creator.. it would make sense when Satan said her eyes would be opened and she would be like divine beings who knew good and bad.. indeed because before this time everything was 100% good, indeed they got to know bad. What a sinister character Satan is. It would be intersesting to find out when he actualy rebeled a billion years ago, 5 million years? it seems to me this might not have been the first signs. Because as God said "'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil".... so they knew of evil beforehand.
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    Originally Posted by WMcEnaney View Post
    Maybe the fruit is metaphorical for the sin Adam and Eve committed. If the original sin was pride or disobedience, they could have committed it, even if they didn't eat any literal fruit.
    If the 'disobedience' wasn't their fault to begin with, how can they be blamed for it?
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    Originally Posted by realistromeo View Post
    Yes he knew man had the "potential" to sin, but did not pre-determine mans failure.

    .
    If he's omniscient that he knew the 'sin' was going to happen, so it's his fault ultimately.
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    Lets not forget the fact that Adam and Eve are fictitious characters and never existed to sin...
    "If you slap every moron you meet, your hand gets tired long before the world becomes a better place." ~ Mr Beer

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    I laughed at "Jehovah endowed these perfect, intelligent creatures with free will." So perfect and intelligent that they damned all human life after them. I also find it interesting that they ate from the tree of knowledge and some how where supposed to have the knowledge to not eat from the tree....of knowledge.
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