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  1. #61
    "Full House" KLMARB's Avatar
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    DING! Let me guess, are you eating a low fat diet? Do you know the percentage of fat calories (vs. protein and carbs) you are consuming on a daily basis?
    I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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  2. #62
    Registered User ra2commando's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KLMARB View Post
    DING! Let me guess, are you eating a low fat diet? Do you know the percentage of fat calories (vs. protein and carbs) you are consuming on a daily basis?
    why? low test? I don't think so, but since you ask, I am getting about 40-50g fat, which turns out to be just under 20%. All of it is saturated fat, and while I know that the suggestion is to get at least .5g/lb, like I mentioned earlier, I have problems with other fat sources. Even before this thread, I was wondering on how to fatten up my totals when I was getting rashes and thus thought this was allergies. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=133864131 I know people have varying opinions on this, but I am not in favor of consuming just saturated fat, but what can I do. It's funny you should ask because I used to eat a low fat diet for several years, and then upon further research I decided to reverse that approach and got about 30% or more, never mind the low carb days when it was significantly higher. I think that is actually the time that I associate with the begining of these symptoms so I actually was looking into the effects that fat peroxidation can cause as I was using a fair bit of flax oil as well.

    In any case, low testosterone is pretty much on the bottom of my list of problems right now. It seems to me if i can get this reaction (immune or whatever) fixed, then I can naturally adjust my diet accordingly.
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by ra2commando View Post
    However we both seem to be in agreement that even if it is determined that I have celiac, it will not have very much affect as I seem to be reactive to foods that are free from gluten, such as rice, oils, etc.
    Avoiding gluten as an ingredient is one thing, avoiding foods that are contaminated with it is something else again. Even looking for the 'gluten free' label on a product may not be helpful, as that doesn't actually mean gluten free, it means it contains very little gluten, usually <20 ppm. 20ppm is an amount that most celiacs can tolerate in moderation. However, there is a subset of celiac called supersensitive celiac. I'm one of these, and I cannot tolerate even one serving of a food that has been tested to only 20ppm.

    To relate to your examples, I have not been able to find any oils that I can have, so I'm living without them. Spectrum brand, as an example, processes wheat germ oil on the same equipment as all of its other oils. For rice, Lundberg is a major brand that only tests to 20ppm, and I react to it. Not being able to tolerate eggs and dairy is really common with celiacs (I cannot have either).

    Good luck to you!
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  4. #64
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    Ah, around 20% of you daily intake is fat. You're probably still in sustained sucrosis. Combine this with your carb intake, and you have synergistically increased insulin production. Even though you're not gaining weight, you're still in a lipogenic hormonal release pattern, preventing conversion of ingested fat for use as a primary energy source. Very similar to my mother, who was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. My solution for her, which subsequently (and totally) alleviated her condition, was a complete switch from a lipogenic hormonal release pattern to a primarily lipolytic one. My main point is that throughout this thread you seem to be following a lipogenic (carb-based) nutritional pattern, so a fundamental change in digestive biochemistry could possibly alleviate your condition. You should understand that this is an adaptive process that takes a little time, merely changing foods for a day or two does not trigger the adaptive response in any real biochemical sense, except for possibly a withdrawl reaction, which may explain some of your negative reactions when you make changes in your nutrition. I suggest keto macros, 60% fat, 35% protein, 5% incidental carbs. Do this for at least one week, two would be better, to allow an adaptation. If you experience withdrawl symptoms, eat more fat to speed/enable the adaptation. Its certainly worth a try.
    I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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  5. #65
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    Thanks for the idea. I am glad that it has helped your mother, and I am really sorry she has FM.

    I am in support of low carb like I think I mentioned previously, but unfortunately I simply do not see a way to make it workable right now. And I also want to note that it is when I was low carbing that the worst of the symptoms have manifested themselves.

    Needless to say if I just ate beef and nothing else – guaranteed I will feel better, I tried it like previously suggested. Why is this so? Well for one, I am removing all the ‘problem’ foods. Yet I do not think it has anything to do with whether I am in ketogenic state or what have, you, it is simply the removal of the offending products. The problem with sustaining this for any length of time is that last time I checked, I had problems with consuming vegetables, oils, and other usual “keto” foods. Suffice to say that eating only beef and nothing else is not only unsustainable, it is also probably not healthy. A similar situation occurred when I tried intermittent fasting. I felt good when the problem foods were removed (fasting) and worse when I started eating again. Also it has little to do with just macronutrients. For instance I have had some odd reactions to taking vitamins, drinking coffee, etc, which should have little impact from that perspective.
    To come back to the point of the poor symptoms experienced during low carb – I was eating vegetables, eggs, chicken, fish (salmon), all of which gave me problems, low carb or not. As a last point, this is contrary to my goal of wanting to get to a state I would associate with how “normal” people can eat. E.g. if I found that getting fed through an IV drip would make this reaction go away, or if I ate only some extremely esoteric food, like now, I would not consider that a very good solution, as it would continue to compromise quality of life. Right now for instance I extremely want to get away and go on vacation somewhere, but what is stopping me is the thought of not being able to procure beef that wasn’t fried in oil, along with sweet potatoes, chickpeas, etc. in a restaurant.

    It seems to me like there is some immune-mediated reaction. I think so because every different type of offending food simply “feels” different, to the point where I could consume something unknowingly and gauging by my reaction tell what it was (e.g. there was once corn starch added to something I was eating, and I got the typical symptoms associated with that. I checked the label, and confirmed my suspicion).

    To those who suggested celiac – I do not think so. If I was influenced by trace elements in a given product, than the reaction should have been similar across the board. To dispel any confusion, I decided to eat just bread made with white flour. Surprisingly I felt OK, not jumping for joy or anything, but no worse than if I ate millet, say.

    I forgot to mention as an update that I did 10 days of flagyl and 5 of amox-clav working on the parasite theory. No positive changes to report unfortunately.
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  6. #66
    Unregistered User Schlangemann's Avatar
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    I understand your frustration to a degree, I have gone through a similar onset of symptoms over about the same timeframe. They aren't as pronounced but none the less causing issues over a long period of time. I only recently started a rigorous elimination diet. I believe I experienced my first few days without the so-called "brainfog" in 15 years and it was quite amazing.

    Have you tried eliminating yeast? Millet and buckwheat bread are great if you have problems with wheat, but not if you have problems with yeast. If you are allergic to yeast, eating foods high in sugar or "fermentable" foods that yeast feed on may set off reactions. In the last few years there's been a fad (similar to leaky gut) where people have gone on yeast eliminating diets in the fear that they have a yeast overgrowth in the gut. As far as I know yeast overgrowth in the gut is fairly rare unless you've been on long courses of antibiotics or are in the ICU.

    I would also see a better allergologist, the tests are never perfect but they usually have a long history of treating people with similar symptoms. It would be good to eliminate as many things affecting your immune system as possible, eg. airborne allergens like mold/pollen, contact allergens like polyester, etc, etc. In the long run perhaps this will make it easier to pinpoint the offending foods/etc.

    I think you should take a holiday. Perhaps somewhere totally different and see if it helps given you can keep your diet in check. It would help eliminate the environmental variables. Why not make it somewhere completely different, like a desert or somewhere that is frozen all year round.

    Goodluck, keep us updated.
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  7. #67
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    I hear that you are sure that if you ate nothing but beef you would be absolutely fine. That is interesting to hear because a year or two back I came across some information about people who eat all meat or all beef diets. I actually tried eating this way for awhile (nothing but meat) and enjoyed it (after awhile you don't miss other foods) and experienced no ill effects. This is obviously completely contrary to standard nutritional theories but I feel there is no reason not to provide you with some information about something that could help you feel better. I'm not vouching for this diet or the science behind it and how things will go for you eating like this longterm, but if this is the only way to rid yourself of all these issues it may be worth it. Here is some information about it
    Zeroinginonhealth.com
    forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287013
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  8. #68
    "Full House" KLMARB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by c3rndahse View Post
    I hear that you are sure that if you ate nothing but beef you would be absolutely fine. That is interesting to hear because a year or two back I came across some information about people who eat all meat or all beef diets. I actually tried eating this way for awhile (nothing but meat) and enjoyed it (after awhile you don't miss other foods) and experienced no ill effects. This is obviously completely contrary to standard nutritional theories but I feel there is no reason not to provide you with some information about something that could help you feel better. I'm not vouching for this diet or the science behind it and how things will go for you eating like this longterm, but if this is the only way to rid yourself of all these issues it may be worth it. Here is some information about it
    Zeroinginonhealth.com
    forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287013
    Its not just a matter of eating beef. Its eating beef meat AND fat. Trust me, eating just lean meat will make you very sick in no time flat....
    I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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  9. #69
    "Full House" KLMARB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gradman View Post
    Sorry got a bit hectic and forgot to check back in - any updates??? How have your symptoms been lately? Can't believe your doc won't prescribe parasitology testing because he thinks it's a waste of time? Surely it's worth a look, particularly due to the pervasiveness of your symptoms. Also, the additional foods you mentioned causing symptoms do in fact contain FODMAPs, although so too do the fruits you mentioned that dont - very complex case you got here. I'm interested to see the results of these tests.



    Thanks for the links, I just had a quick glance and saw they're a bit long so I'll read them when I have more time. But looking forward to the further post you have coming, I'll be interested to read your findings.
    Ra, how about an update?

    Gradman, here's the response I promised you.

    I'm giving this in the context of the materials I linked to in my previous posts, in order to avoid extra typing and reiteration of terms/concepts.

    I'm nearing completion of a discordancy analysis of two families (related by marriage) following very similar nutritional patterns, as far as macro and micronutrient intakes, but experiencing very different and profound health effects. Genetics are european, with family "A" being primarily northern/germanic genetics, family "B" being a mixture of germanic/balkan (slovenian) genetics.

    Now to my point about the proteome. I'l first talk about the autoimmune issues, which manifest themselves at the cellular level. This is at the receptor level, hence the significance of the proteome as far as composition of the specific receptors as well as their reaction when specific protein peptides attach on to those receptors and attempt entry into the cell. The concept is "molecular mimicery" referred to in the before mentioned sources. Family "B" shows a high incidence of discordancy within the context of a chronically lipogenic hormonal secretion pattern, leading to the autoimmune conditions of Chrone's Disease, Gout, other digestive issues, etc. Other conditions include Fibromyalgia, development of type II diabetes during early middle age, early death from CHD (middle age), and death from cancer (leukemia). Significantly, there is no family history of obesity, although there is typically some fat gain during middle age, although not of an excessive nature. Children are of normal weight, I consider this signicant. Family "B" develops discordancy fairly early, within the past year, one 21 year old has been diagnosed with Chrone's and a three year old has been diagnosed with Tourette's. Family "B" develops these conditions early, and suffers lifelong detrimental health effects, leading to a significant decline in quality of life as well as premature mortality. I'm running short on time, so I'll continue my analysis with family "A" when I get a chance....
    I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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    Hi ra2commando

    Totally empathise with your stituation,read with great interest your threads,but noticed you havent posted in a while.How are things going for you now?
    Like you i've done the rounds of allergists,gastro,GPs,dieticians.Currently they want me to do salycicate diet for 3 months,not very confident though.when i went to my allergist to get results lately he didn't seem to interested once he saw they're were no food allergies.I showed him rash i developed when on elimination diet,he wanted me to come back to him when i got it again so he could biopsy it,no doubt he wasn't happy with the 1000 euro he just relieved me of,he wanted more.One thing did come out of our discussion though,he said my IgE levels were rather high so when i ate,certain foods were giving me reactions giving the symptoms of allergies.Like you i get all the symptoms,do you know histamine can block thyroid function giving you low BP,fast or slow HR,i also get low BT sometimes.I take antihistamines all to no effectbut in strange way they help a bit dunno why.I googled High IgE levels and they say it can be a sign of depression,probably stress.Like you with all the goings on i fell stressed and probably at this stage i am depressed so i think i'll pursue this avenue.I notice all your immunoglobins are normal but you did't mention IgE levels,did your allergist give you these?












    Originally Posted by ra2commando View Post
    Thanks for the idea. I am glad that it has helped your mother, and I am really sorry she has FM.

    I am in support of low carb like I think I mentioned previously, but unfortunately I simply do not see a way to make it workable right now. And I also want to note that it is when I was low carbing that the worst of the symptoms have manifested themselves.

    Needless to say if I just ate beef and nothing else – guaranteed I will feel better, I tried it like previously suggested. Why is this so? Well for one, I am removing all the ‘problem’ foods. Yet I do not think it has anything to do with whether I am in ketogenic state or what have, you, it is simply the removal of the offending products. The problem with sustaining this for any length of time is that last time I checked, I had problems with consuming vegetables, oils, and other usual “keto” foods. Suffice to say that eating only beef and nothing else is not only unsustainable, it is also probably not healthy. A similar situation occurred when I tried intermittent fasting. I felt good when the problem foods were removed (fasting) and worse when I started eating again. Also it has little to do with just macronutrients. For instance I have had some odd reactions to taking vitamins, drinking coffee, etc, which should have little impact from that perspective.
    To come back to the point of the poor symptoms experienced during low carb – I was eating vegetables, eggs, chicken, fish (salmon), all of which gave me problems, low carb or not. As a last point, this is contrary to my goal of wanting to get to a state I would associate with how “normal” people can eat. E.g. if I found that getting fed through an IV drip would make this reaction go away, or if I ate only some extremely esoteric food, like now, I would not consider that a very good solution, as it would continue to compromise quality of life. Right now for instance I extremely want to get away and go on vacation somewhere, but what is stopping me is the thought of not being able to procure beef that wasn’t fried in oil, along with sweet potatoes, chickpeas, etc. in a restaurant.

    It seems to me like there is some immune-mediated reaction. I think so because every different type of offending food simply “feels” different, to the point where I could consume something unknowingly and gauging by my reaction tell what it was (e.g. there was once corn starch added to something I was eating, and I got the typical symptoms associated with that. I checked the label, and confirmed my suspicion).

    To those who suggested celiac – I do not think so. If I was influenced by trace elements in a given product, than the reaction should have been similar across the board. To dispel any confusion, I decided to eat just bread made with white flour. Surprisingly I felt OK, not jumping for joy or anything, but no worse than if I ate millet, say.

    I forgot to mention as an update that I did 10 days of flagyl and 5 of amox-clav working on the parasite theory. No positive changes to report unfortunately.
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  11. #71
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    Hey all, sorry I haven't been updating. A) i wasn't feeling well and just didn't feel like b*tching and complaining all the time B) I figured all the guys who tried to help me (thanks everyone, I DO appreciate it) but must have been getting frustrated with no progress on my part. I felt the same frustration with my family doc. After a while of trying everything, he just gave up, and literally said "I'm Sorry, I can't help you". And even though that made me feel like ****, I understand that it was really hard for him to admit too.

    Frustrated, I am really sorry you share the same condition. I did do the IgE test. It cost me around $350. But I should have researched this more - in one of the books I read I read it showed the differences between each of the tests as apparently some test for the stuff that the others do not. I think it was Alcat that is the best one, but I honestly do not remember, and neither do I even remember which book I found it in. Anyway, did it help? Yes and no. It flagged a lot of the stuff I already knew, some I suspected, and others I didn't know about, such as rice. Dropping rice made the difference the same day I was so happy, I would have paid twice that amount if I knew it would help me. But, unfortunately it did not last. I started developing problems with more and more foods. The bottom line is, if you know something is a problem for you, no matter what the test says, you are still going to feel like crap. If you can afford it, I would definitely do some research on those tests. It sounds like you are from europe, I think this stuff is more advanced there than in NA. Otherwise my best advice to you is first to try find the foods that you have no problems with and then rotate them as frequently as possible. Definitely try the salycilate diet, and also check into other amines as well. Try this diet http://failsafediet.wordpress.com/th...diet-failsafe/ it might help you. I would also recommend getting as much sleep and rest as you can - that means no reading, no TV, etc.

    As for me, well...
    I gotten pretty depressed, went to a shrink, prescribed 20mg cipralex, seemed to help at first, now not so much. Even with the SSRI, if I feel bad, i start getting depressed. I used to wake up thinking that it might be a better idea to kill myself than to go through another day. This still with the SSRIs. Keep going to a psychotherapist, little help there, but big drain on $$$. Also got some Sublinox (sublingual Ambien), seems to help with sleep somewhat.

    Endocrinologist eventually told me i have low test, so started taking 5mg test through Androgel. Then after a follow up, my levels apparently dropped (don't ask, I have no idea), so she bumped it up to 7.5mg.
    I still have my diabetes insipidus problems, so that, combined with the wacky testosterone levels reminded me to ask her for another MRI, as on the last one there was something weird with the anterior of the pituitary (apparently the part that produces all these wonderful hormones).

    The only way i seem to manage this problem is through esoteric foods, like quinoa, different sweet potatoes, different buckwheat brands. For some reason particular brands of quinoa give me bloat and make me worse, similar for buckwheat. As you might have guessed, it is the more EXPENSIVE brands that are OK. So instead of paying buck fifty for 2 kilos of rice, I have to pay $8 for a teeny packet of quinoa. My grocery bill is over $1K a month.

    There was a period when I was better and much more energetic. I don't know why. It happened some time after bumping up my test levels, so I thought that might be it, but it seems to have worn down now, whatever it was. For some reason the other day I decided to try some sushi, and felt just horrible the next day. Yesterday I decided to have some different fruit (peach and blueberry). Seemed ok, then about 3AM at night I woke up drenched in sweat, almost like a fever. I thought I wouldn't be able to sleep like this, so I set my AC to max, and eventually this passed.

    As to physical performance, my friend visited me from out of town, so we went out for a walk. It was pathetic to me to see that I had trouble to even keep up walking with him. I told him about this ****, but I guess people just don't get it. They look at you, and it seems like you are all right, but sometimes I have just trouble walking, or even thinking, remembering or concentrating. This coming from a guy who used to work out 3x a week and run on the other days of the week. Sometimes I feel pathetic. Obviously this has affected my work, but THANK GOD I was able to slink by. There are times when it's really hard, so I am thinking of applying for disability, but obviously that would be a huge battle to prove, and would choke off the $ flow.

    I keep wanting to smoke weed or something just to help cope, I just don't know where to get it, lol.

    Anyway, that's my sad sob story, and why I didn't really want to keep spilling with the negative updates.

    Thanks again for all the support.
    No mater what the issue is, someone will always find a way to take it too seriously
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    Registered User diplow's Avatar
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    It's rough I know, I experience many of these symptoms myself and it sucks to say the least.
    I just had a thought though, have you ever tried having different foods at every meal? I know it's not possible every meal lol, but like a rotation over a few days?
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    Originally Posted by diplow View Post
    It's rough I know, I experience many of these symptoms myself and it sucks to say the least.
    I just had a thought though, have you ever tried having different foods at every meal? I know it's not possible every meal lol, but like a rotation over a few days?
    I didn't realize that so many people had the same problem? Yea that is exactly what I try to do - Thanks. I am kind of limited in my selection though. Right now I have beef, quinoa, different kind of sweet potatoes, chick peas, and buckwheat to choose from. So I might do something like 1/2 portion chickpeas + 1/2 purple sweet potatoes + beef, and then something else for lunch, etc.
    No mater what the issue is, someone will always find a way to take it too seriously
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