Are squats and deadlift necessary to bulk up?

[Jason242]

I've skipped them as I had problems with my knees before. Are they important to bulking or are there other lifts that can hit the same target muscle groups as effectively?

Trying to structure my workouts to maximize my workout time in the gym.

[VIsland]

I've skipped them as I had problems with my knees before. Are they important to bulking or are there other lifts that can hit the same target muscle groups as effectively?

Trying to structure my workouts to maximize my workout time in the gym.

Most important factors for bulking are lift heavy and eat at a surplus.

[4ea]

i strongly believe there are absolutely no substitutes for squats and deadlifts, especially both of them combined. ive found that neither of them really hurt my knees either. leg extensions on the other hand seem to destroy my knees, so i dont do them anymore.

im still kinda bitter leg extensions hurt me knees so much though.

[Jason242]

i strongly believe there are absolutely no substitutes for squats and deadlifts, especially both of them combined. ive found that neither of them really hurt my knees either. leg extensions on the other hand seem to destroy my knees, so i dont do them anymore.

im still kinda bitter leg extensions hurt me knees so much though.

I used to have problems with leg extensions but found that as long as I took them slowly and made sure not to straighten my knees I don't have problems. Squats got me perhaps because my feet naturally make me stand on my toes and standing flat is not something I do naturally. Not sure it is something that makes this exercise just a bad idea for my body. It does make it impossible for me to go as low as others. I have 10 hours left with a pt, thinking I will wait another month of working on my core to try it out again.

Thanks for the feedback

[Jason242]

i strongly believe there are absolutely no substitutes for squats and deadlifts, especially both of them combined. ive found that neither of them really hurt my knees either. leg extensions on the other hand seem to destroy my knees, so i dont do them anymore.

im still kinda bitter leg extensions hurt me knees so much though.

Most important factors for bulking are lift heavy and eat at a surplus.

Hahaha not a problem there Bro

[AirForceV]

Torn acl and squats sort of aggravate. Plus I keep re injuring it at work/mundane activities. Heaviest I have ever squatted is 205x10...


I rack pull instead of dead lifting.. doesn't seem to affect my gains.


currently bulking to 200 my self.

[Jason242]

Torn acl and squats sort of aggravate. Plus I keep re injuring it at work/mundane activities. Heaviest I have ever squatted is 205x10...


I rack pull instead of dead lifting.. doesn't seem to affect my gains.


currently bulking to 200 my self.

We do have racks at my gym. That sounds like a smart idea, rather than starting off with free weights. So much talk about working out I'm off to try this out.

Thanks for the advice.

[KhoraskGTR]

Are they necessary ? No
Are they important... well they can be very useful but as you hinted there are always other exercises to target the same areas and its up to you to figure out what works for you

[4ea]

I used to have problems with leg extensions but found that as long as I took them slowly and made sure not to straighten my knees I don't have problems. Squats got me perhaps because my feet naturally make me stand on my toes and standing flat is not something I do naturally. Not sure it is something that makes this exercise just a bad idea for my body. It does make it impossible for me to go as low as others. I have 10 hours left with a pt, thinking I will wait another month of working on my core to try it out again.

Thanks for the feedback

yea, straitening the legs all the way on leg extensions may have been my problem. problem is that i dont have access to a legitimate leg extension machine, just an attachment on my bench.

anyway though, squats feel like somewhat of an awkward movement by nature. i usually dont go too heavy on them for fear that i may lose my balance. not good if you've got 350+ lbs on your back. deadlifts are what i consider to be a perfect exercise for going as heavy as possible. its a great all around strength builder, plus if you lose your balance, the barbell just falls on the ground rather than on you. stiff leg deadlifts are really good too, although those work your hamstrings/lower back rather than quads.

[Ironlife]

Are they necessary ? No
Are they important... well they can be very useful but as you hinted there are always other exercises to target the same areas and its up to you to figure out what works for you

Well said here, listen to this post OP

[Jason242]

Well said here, listen to this post OP

I think I will, at least until I feel solid enough to move into heavier lifting. Currently trying to remove all the excess bf. Last month my bmi was at 24%bf. I'm hitting core exercises as intensely as I can. Once I get that down to 15% then I will be asking my pt to observe my form.

[Jason242]

yea, straitening the legs all the way on leg extensions may have been my problem. problem is that i dont have access to a legitimate leg extension machine, just an attachment on my bench.

anyway though, squats feel like somewhat of an awkward movement by nature. i usually dont go too heavy on them for fear that i may lose my balance. not good if you've got 350+ lbs on your back. deadlifts are what i consider to be a perfect exercise for going as heavy as possible. its a great all around strength builder, plus if you lose your balance, the barbell just falls on the ground rather than on you. stiff leg deadlifts are really good too, although those work your hamstrings/lower back rather than quads.

I never learned proper form for that. I learned high school let's go into the gym and jerk that fing bar and hope for a moment of impressing everyone else. I'm def gonna be watching a lot of vids on proper lifting tips before I try that again after 16 years.

[Roniboney]

Herniated L1-L2 disk and strained right lower lumbar in December.Recovered in February and did squats and deads up until yesterday.I will never do them again. I can go atg,have videos of me going atg,my back cannot take it.The physio and a powerlifting coach told me that squats especially look awkward on my body.My back has been killing me lately and I decided not to squat and use leg press and hyperextensions instead.Its considered the pussay choice but you have to work with what you have.

If you can't do squats and deads don't do them. I wish I could do them but I don't want to run the risk of doing them and keeping myself out of the gym for weeks again.I'll have to lay off for 2 weeks now. Some people are not built to do them. If you strongly feel that your one of those few then don't do them.

[Jhemre]

Caloric surplus is necessary. But IMO both movements are very beneficial...

[Jason242]

Herniated L1-L2 disk and strained right lower lumbar in December.Recovered in February and did squats and deads up until yesterday.I will never do them again. I can go atg,have videos of me going atg,my back cannot take it.The physio and a powerlifting coach told me that squats especially look awkward on my body.My back has been killing me lately and I decided not to squat and use leg press and hyperextensions instead.Its considered the pussay choice but you have to work with what you have.

If you can't do squats and deads don't do them. I wish I could do them but I don't want to run the risk of doing them and keeping myself out of the gym for weeks again.I'll have to lay off for 2 weeks now. Some people are not built to do them. If you strongly feel that your one of those few then don't do them.

That's rough. Really don't wanna screw around with a herniated disk. I have a friend that was told that he only had 1 year before his disintegrating disk would no longer allow him to walk. If yours is herniated then make sure not to injure it any further than is necessary.

I think I'll try to see how it feels when I do it, and tell the pt to really correct my form as much as possible.

Caloric surplus is necessary. But IMO both movements are very beneficial...

Hah scarfing down some doritos mixed in with chicken curry, atm.

[Uberknee]

Not necessary. You can substitute isolation exercises for all of the muscles they hit. You may need to spend an extra day in the gym to do this. Size and strength increases will probably be slower using isolation movements instead of compounds.

I have 2 bulging discs and was seriously considering spinal surgery at one point, so this is the route my (very cool) specialist advised me to take.

If I ever go 6 months with no pain I'll start very slowly ramping up my squats and deads again, unfortunately I can't even leg press without back pain atm!

[Jason242]

Not necessary. You can substitute isolation exercises for all of the muscles they hit. You may need to spend an extra day in the gym to do this. Size and strength increases will probably be slower using isolation movements instead of compounds.

I have 2 bulging discs and was seriously considering spinal surgery at one point, so this is the route my (very cool) specialist advised me to take.

If I ever go 6 months with no pain I'll start very slowly ramping up my squats and deads again, unfortunately I can't even leg press without back pain atm!

I'm curious can you give me some details on some of the isolation exercises that you do as I'm not hitting any squats or deadlifts at least for another month or so.

[JourneymanDave]

...ive found that neither of them really hurt my knees either. leg extensions on the other hand seem to destroy my knees, so i dont do them anymore. ...

im still kinda bitter leg extensions hurt me knees so much though.

x2 I've all but eliminated knee pain by minimizing leg extensions to just light warm-ups, and sticking with squats and deadlifts for my main leg work. The geometry of the leg extension movement puts a surprising amount of pressure on the kneecap in particular, which is where my problems lie.

[TheKoiCarp]

Most important factors for bulking are lift heavy and eat at a surplus.

this

In terms of efficiency, you wont find any substitutes.

Necessary? No

[ThePinsir]

No exercise is necessary.

[jonnovip]

cool ked

[4ea]

I never learned proper form for that. I learned high school let's go into the gym and jerk that fing bar and hope for a moment of impressing everyone else. I'm def gonna be watching a lot of vids on proper lifting tips before I try that again after 16 years.

thats understandable. that has been my approach to deadlifting as well. well, maybe not lifting to impress anyone else, but id basically just pick up the bar without putting much thought into it. i think im gonna take advantage of the wealth of knowledge on this site and finally educate myself on the proper form for deadlifting.

[4ea]

x2 I've all but eliminated knee pain by minimizing leg extensions to just light warm-ups, and sticking with squats and deadlifts for my main leg work. The geometry of the leg extension movement puts a surprising amount of pressure on the kneecap in particular, which is where my problems lie.

yea its surprising how that works. i remember in highschool my friends and i would bang out leg extensions all the time. i tried doing it a few years ago and it caused so much pain i couldnt even do my squats.

[IronTerminator]

OP give box squats a try, they force you to sit back farther and use a wider stance which makes the movement much easier on the knees. When I was having knee troubles, this was the only leg compound that gave me no pain whatsoever.

[NZninja101]

5 star thread. Really helpful stuff going on here. But OP, if you want to structure your workout to maximize time in the gym, you would logically decide to do squats and deadlifts as they work more muscles at once, (efficiency), than any other exercise. But as you say you have knee problems, and squats and deadlifts are not absolutely necessary so you'll probably be fine just doing other exercises that hit the same muscles, (though it will probably take a little longer)

[Jason242]

OP give box squats a try, they force you to sit back farther and use a wider stance which makes the movement much easier on the knees. When I was having knee troubles, this was the only leg compound that gave me no pain whatsoever.

Wider stance should also help with my balance. I'll take a look for a vid on box squats. Im thinking of warming up my knees for the squats and deadlifts by doing lunges for a few weeks. Like deadlift I haven't done those since high school though so I'm sure my form is terrible.

[Mark3380]

OP, definitely try rack pulls if you haven't yet. My knees are really bad and I have a compressed disk in my back and can still do rack pulls from just below the knees fairly heavy.

[Jason242]

OP, definitely try rack pulls if you haven't yet. My knees are really bad and I have a compressed disk in my back and can still do rack pulls from just below the knees fairly heavy.

I'm kinda lucky with my gym. We've got a rack on one side with a limited motion barbell only moving laterally and the opposite wall we have one with bars to allow us to use free weight barbells from. I'm taking it that your suggestion is to us the limited motion one. My only problem will be waiting for the tourists sitting on the racks. We got too many of those.

[JohnSmeton]

when putting on size you want the best overall mass builders and these both fall into that catgory

[ab1992]

i wont say they are necessary, but they do help a lot. Also there is no substitute for them.