Benefits of multi-sets?

[Jeffro72]

I worked multi-sets for years and made great progress. Then I stopped working out for years.

I started lifting again recently, and temporarily started doing only doing one set per exercise, compound movements only, to get me acclimated to the weight and movements. And I'm also stopping a few reps short of failure, so it's not truly HIT (which I never liked).

I've been making great progress this way. I figure progressive resistance is the thing working here, so as long as I am able to add weight to the bar (however small) over time (however long), I'm making progress. I'm not in any rush here and want to do things right.

Lately, I've considered increasing the sets from one to three, but since I'm making progress doing just one set, I don't want to fix what isn't broken. Additionally, I know I'd have to drop the weight some to be able to pull off more sets. I want to keep the poundages going up slowly but surely as they are right now.

The only thing I can think multiple sets would do better over a single set, is cause more microtrauma per workout, but then this would require more time for recovery I would think.

Would anyone have inputs on why multi-sets would be better overall?

[ironwill2008]

Would anyone have inputs on why multi-sets would be better overall?

Here are just a few clinical studies on this issue; there are many more that state basically the same thing:


3 sets better than one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSIONS: Three sets of exercise produce twice the strength increase of one set in the early phase of resistance training. Training fast produces greater strength increases than training slow; however, there does not appear to be any additional benefit of training with both three sets and fast contractions.

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Multiple sets produce more strength than one:

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab...ple_Set.5.aspx

This quantitative review indicates that single-set programs for an initial short training period in untrained individuals result in similar strength gains as multiple-set programs. However, as progression occurs and higher gains are desired, multiple-set programs are more effective.

(C) 2004 National Strength and Conditioning Association

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Multiple sets produce 40% more hypertrophy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20300012

In conclusion, multiple sets are associated with 40% greater hypertrophy-related ESs than 1 set, in both trained and untrained subjects.

ETA: IN before the HIT Jedi descend upon this thread.

[John Prophet]

more sets = more of a base to build off of


imagine if sprinters showed up, ran one max sprint and then went home. I think you will reach the point where the one max set wont be enough


another thing that I never got. if you have to do 2 warmup sets first, before you are ready to do 1 max set, then whats the difference between that and just setting out to do 3 sets to start with?

[Karl_Hungus]

Good links posted by IW.

Personally, I only do two work sets (not including warm up) for most compound exercises (e.g. bench, squats, bb rows, pullups, etc.), but I go all out on those two sets. Once every three weeks, I'll go very heavy (3 rep sets) for 3 sets. After years of experimentation with different volume schemes, I've found that this gives me the best strength gains while minimizing strain on the joints. I suggest that you experiment OP and find what works best for you.

[ironwill2008]

... experiment OP and find what works best for you.

^^^^This. Effective training protocols are tough to nail down since everyone's body mechanics (muscle fiber makeup, bone lengths, joint actions, muscle origin/insertion, leverages, etc., etc., etc.) are a little different. Add in the mental aspects of training, as well as availability of equipment, and it's a wide-open field.

The only thing that's pretty much for certain is that for the vast majority of natty trainees, it's going to take more than just one set of an exercise to maximize gains.

[Jeffro72]

I really appreciate the replies so far.

Good reading for sure.

[Rhinoclan]

People love to complicate pretty simple things...but one piece of advice I'd gotten on these boards still sticks with me. As experience increases, so must volume...and the opposite is true for frequency...as volume/experience increases, frequency will decrease.

[Jeffro72]

I wonder what a good weight drop % would be from one set to completing 3 sets? I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to pull off three sets with the current weight I'm using. Next set would likely be to failure for sure, and last set wouldn't even make the reps. I'd rather not go to failure on any set.

I vaguely remember reading it's a 2.5% drop in weight per set added, but not sure about this. I'd think it might be more of a drop than this.

I guess I'll try it and if it doesn't work, then I'll know for sure.

[Marius_Ursus]

Man, there are so many variables in training that it can make your head spin. One of the simplest ways to figure out multiple sets is just pick a target number of reps and take as many breaks as you need to reach your target.

[chunkysnowman]

According to what I'm reading through right now 75-80% of 1RM gives the best hypertrophy restults. But ofc, like others have said, its just a guideline. I'm currently working well below that as I'm following the 5x5 stronglifts program.....slow but steadily increasing every time I train.

[Jeffro72]

According to what I'm reading through right now 75-80% of 1RM gives the best hypertrophy restults. But ofc, like others have said, its just a guideline. I'm currently working well below that as I'm following the 5x5 stronglifts program.....slow but steadily increasing every time I train.

That seems to be about right. Those percentages put me in the 6-8 rep range for my current 1RM.

[John Prophet]

I wonder what a good weight drop % would be from one set to completing 3 sets? I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to pull off three sets with the current weight I'm using. Next set would likely be to failure for sure, and last set wouldn't even make the reps. I'd rather not go to failure on any set.

I vaguely remember reading it's a 2.5% drop in weight per set added, but not sure about this. I'd think it might be more of a drop than this.

I guess I'll try it and if it doesn't work, then I'll know for sure.

Thats how you worked out before? doing descending sets?

Seems backwards to me. you just started back yet you want to start on low volume/hi intensity?? doesnt that seem backwards?

[Jeffro72]

Thats how you worked out before? doing descending sets?

Seems backwards to me. you just started back yet you want to start on low volume/hi intensity?? doesnt that seem backwards?

Sorry for the confusion.

Since I'm doing 1 set now and want to bring it up to 3 sets, I was wondering how much to drop my current weight so I can successfully do 3 sets (and still make all reps without going to failure). This is all while keeping the weight the same for each set.

For example, let's say I can do 200 lbs for 10 reps for one set only. If I wanted to do 2 sets, I'd need to drop this weight by 2.5%, which is 195 lbs. So I could do 195 lbs for 10 reps, for 2 sets, and still make all reps without going to failure. If I wanted to do this for 3 sets, I'd need to drop the weight by another 2.5%. I believe I read this 2.5% number in one of AllPro's posts, but I may be wrong on this.

As for my old routine years ago (think early 90's), it was laughable (almost regrettable). I'm surprised I made as much gains as I did on it, and when I stalled I didn't know why. If only I knew then what I know now I likely never would have quit, and may have some decent lifts by now. My current numbers are pathetic...too embarassing to even post here.

[pastorgbc]

I would skin the cat this way:

1. Do your 1 set for 10 reps (for example).
2. Do your next set with the same weight for as many reps as you can, but 1 short of failure.
3. Add 5% and do as many reps as you can, but 1 short of failure.

Log your weights and reps. Shoot for 1 more rep each workout. When you reach 3x10, and you will, up the weight.

Ray

[muttytwist]

I think multiple sets work due time under tension. The more time you can keep your mucsles working, the more they will respond to the training.

[ironwill2008]

I would skin the cat this way:

1. Do your 1 set for 10 reps (for example).
2. Do your next set with the same weight for as many reps as you can, but 1 short of failure.
3. Add 5% and do as many reps as you can, but 1 short of failure.

Log your weights and reps. Shoot for 1 more rep each workout. When you reach 3x10, and you will, up the weight.

Ray

^^^^This will work just fine, especially the part about staying just a little bit shy of failure.

[Karl_Hungus]

People love to complicate pretty simple things...but one piece of advice I'd gotten on these boards still sticks with me. As experience increases, so must volume...and the opposite is true for frequency...as volume/experience increases, frequency will decrease.

I generally agree with you about frequency, but as long as you are adding weight and making progress, I don't think you necessarily have to add more sets (I certainly haven't).

[Jeffro72]

^^^^This will work just fine, especially the part about staying just a little bit shy of failure.

Sounds like a great plan. I'm definitely going to consider this.

[Jeffro72]

I generally agree with you about frequency, but as long as you are adding weight and making progress, I don't think you necessarily have to add more sets (I certainly haven't).

That was part of my original point. My starting plan was to do single sets for a few months, then increase it to multiple sets once acclimated. But since I was making progress on single sets, I started to "question" going to multiple sets.

After seeing Iron Will's links and getting everyone's opinion, I'm definitely considering moving from one set to 3 sets. If it doesn't work as well, I guess I could go back to a single set or two sets.

I'd even do 5x5, but after a few weeks on that, my joints and tendons were toast. The lower reps are what did it, which is why I started over and went to 10 reps, and one set.

[John Prophet]

For example, let's say I can do 200 lbs for 10 reps for one set only. If I wanted to do 2 sets, I'd need to drop this weight by 2.5%, which is 195 lbs. So I could do 195 lbs for 10 reps, for 2 sets, and still make all reps without going to failure. If I wanted to do this for 3 sets, I'd need to drop the weight by another 2.5%. I believe I read this 2.5% number in one of AllPro's posts, but I may be wrong on this.

ok, gotcha. I thought you were trying to figure out how much to drop the second set in order to get the same reps. That would be "descending sets" like 225x10, 215x10, 200x9 where each set is done to failure or right at failure. THAT is super intense and IMO isnt even needed. I was tripping thinking u were going to do that right after a layoff...which would be totally unneeded.

as far as how much to drop the weight in the way you meant it...no need to be so technical. Just start a little conservatively and most likely youll get all the reps then go up slightly next time. You will be off to a running start that way. Like with 5x5 stuff, one of the only ways to screw it up is to start off really straining the first week

[John Prophet]

I would skin the cat this way:

1. Do your 1 set for 10 reps (for example).
2. Do your next set with the same weight for as many reps as you can, but 1 short of failure.
3. Add 5% and do as many reps as you can, but 1 short of failure.

Log your weights and reps. Shoot for 1 more rep each workout. When you reach 3x10, and you will, up the weight.

Ray

haha, thats trippin, because another way to skin the cat is just the opposite. do the 2 sets then drop 10%

example:
225x10
225x9-10
205x10

the idea behind it is that you get two good heavy work sets and then the third set is almost a gimme but it does allow you to get some decent work in without a lot of physical or mental strain. I used that idea on occasion for stuff I didnt really like...for instance heavy squats. All you have to do is "get up" for the first two sets and then that third set is easy mentally and feels like you are getting a break even though you are getting in some more good work.

Not my idea btw, pretty sure it came from one of Pavel Tsatsoulines books

[JerryB]

May be easier on the joints in the long run.
Will you be doing your one set when you are in your sixties?

[Jeffro72]

ok, gotcha. I thought you were trying to figure out how much to drop the second set in order to get the same reps. That would be "descending sets" like 225x10, 215x10, 200x9 where each set is done to failure or right at failure. THAT is super intense and IMO isnt even needed. I was tripping thinking u were going to do that right after a layoff...which would be totally unneeded.

as far as how much to drop the weight in the way you meant it...no need to be so technical. Just start a little conservatively and most likely youll get all the reps then go up slightly next time. You will be off to a running start that way. Like with 5x5 stuff, one of the only ways to screw it up is to start off really straining the first week

Yea, I like numbers, even though I know it's not that straight forward. I also have the bad habit of starting off way heavier and intense than I should, trying to get back to where I was years ago.

[Jeffro72]

May be easier on the joints in the long run.
Will you be doing your one set when you are in your sixties?

Yes, I hope to, or at least whatever works at the time. By that point, I'm sure I'll be maintaining rather than building.

[Snausage]

Everything works but nothing works forever!

[boathead]

what's the hurry?

estimate waaaay on the conservative side. these things always self-correct. for instance, i just got on a bench routine. i have never done a 5x5 with all the same weight. so, 2 week's i just started with 135 x 5 x 5, and called it a day.

yesterday i did 160x5x5. still pretty easy, but in very short order, i've been able to acclimate to the routine, AND add a little weight to the bar each time. momentum is king. i assure you that had i started at say, 170x5x5, which i could do, 3 months from now i'd be at 175 x 5 x 5.

i'm learning a little about patience, and learning to trust these tried and true routines, instead of jumping the gun and making all kinds of ridiculous alterations.

always leave a little weight on the bar, especially if increased frequency is the plan.

[brizey]

...momentum is king...

This is something I had to learn the hard way. My example: I am six months into a program in which I am using leg presses as my main compound leg exercise (shoulder issue makes squats a no go, otherwise I would be doing them). I do a simple pyramid building up a plate per side at a time up to my max, doing 12 reps for each set. I have found that this really helps me get into a groove for the workout. I add ten pounds per week to all sets. I have progressed from doing 12 plates to 18 plates in about six months. At the beginning it was kind of easy, but I resisted the temptation to drive the weight up outside of the program, and the result is that I have never failed to add weight. No injuries. No debilitating DOMS. Slow and steady wins the race. At 9 plates per side I adjusted the warm up a bit, so I skip 2 and 6 plates now to keep the number of sets reasonable.

This routine may not be optimum, but it sure is working for me right now. I have a hard time imagining doing just two warm up sets and one money set having the same effect. I need the build-up to get into a groove for heavy compound exercises.

[drudixon]

Here are just a few clinical studies on this issue; there are many more that state basically the same thing:


3 sets better than one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Multiple sets produce more strength than one:

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab...ple_Set.5.aspx





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Multiple sets produce 40% more hypertrophy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20300012









ETA: IN before the HIT Jedi descend upon this thread.

I was thinking hit klingons.

[ironwill2008]

I was thinking hit klingons.

LOL. A few years ago there was one guy posting on this site under a dozen usernames who'd come into any thread mentioning 'one set,' and argue for days with anyone who'd fall for his crap about how great HIT was. Of course he was nothing but a troll; no avi, no stats, no nothing. Other than the fact that the guy was no more than a gasbag, I had to give him credit for his trolling ability; he could get people so upset they'd dance to his tune for page after page.

[John Prophet]

LOL. A few years ago there was one guy posting on this site under a dozen usernames who'd come into any thread mentioning 'one set,' and argue for days with anyone who'd fall for his crap about how great HIT was. Of course he was nothing but a troll; no avi, no stats, no nothing. Other than the fact that the guy was no more than a gasbag, I had to give him credit for his trolling ability; he could get people so upset they'd dance to his tune for page after page.

why u gotta bring waynelucky into this??