Mixing Whey with Casein?

[pharaoh03]

In the featured Jim Stoppani 8 nutrition rules article, he recommends taking a whey protein shake mixed with casein after your workout for fast and slow absorbing protein fortification.

Though i've read that you should not take whey with casein because the casein will slow down or disable the fast absorbtion of whey.

I know Jim is reliable, but can i get some reassurance that its better to take whey and casein after workouts than just whey? (aside from creatine and carb drink)

[NegatronPrime]

Reliable Jim sounds like a reliable idiot

[Brainiac2]

Actually what Jim said is correct. It has generally been shown that a combination of both fast and slow digesting proteins, in your case whey and casein, is optimal for post workout nutrition. A quote from lyle McDonald:
"Almost without exception, whey was suggested as the best protein for after training to get aminos into the bloodstream more quickly. As noted yesterday, not only is this not true but there is emerging data (discussed in detail in The Protein Book) that fast proteins after training are not the optimal choice for promoting lean body mass gains, slow proteins or a combination of slow and fast proteins appear to be more effective. I’d refer readers back to my article on Milk: The New Sports Drink? A Review where milk outperformed soy (a fast protein) for promoting lean body mass gains.
Others suggested that the combination of whey and casein should be superior to either in isolation; the whey provides a quick hit of aminos to boost protein synthesis while the casein provided a longer source of aminos to blunt protein breakdown. In many ways, this third group would turn out to be closer to correct than either the whey-only or casein-only groups. But I’m getting ahead of myself."

I would post the link but it wont let me. Go to bodyrecomposition dot com and search for What Are Good Sources of Protein? – Speed of Digestion Part 2

[determined4000]

whey will still be digested quickly, but you will also have the slow digesting casein

[peanut-butter]

It wont make a significant difference whether you consume whey vs casein postW. Meal timing is largely irrelevant, therefore making the digestion rate, not an important factor.

Whey (Fast digesting) compared to Casein (Slower digestion) postW.

Whey and casein labeled with L-[1-13C]leucine and muscle protein synthesis: effect of resistance exercise and protein ingestion.

Muscle protein turnover following resistance exercise and amino acid availability are relatively well described. By contrast, the beneficial effects of different sources of intact proteins in relation to exercise need further investigation. Our objective was to compare muscle anabolic responses to a single bolus intake of whey or casein after performance of heavy resistance exercise. Young male individuals were randomly assigned to participate in two protein trials (n = 9) or one control trial (n = 8). Infusion of l-[1-(13)C]leucine was carried out, and either whey, casein (0.3 g/kg lean body mass), or a noncaloric control drink was ingested immediately after exercise. l-[1-(13)C]leucine-labeled whey and casein were used while muscle protein synthesis (MPS) was assessed. Blood and muscle tissue samples were collected to measure systemic hormone and amino acid concentrations, tracer enrichments, and myofibrillar protein synthesis. Western blots were used to investigate the Akt signaling pathway. Plasma insulin and branched-chain amino acid concentrations increased to a greater extent after ingestion of whey compared with casein. Myofibrillar protein synthesis was equally increased 1-6 h postexercise after whey and casein intake, both of which were higher compared with control (P < 0.05). Phosphorylation of Akt and p70(S6K) was increased after exercise and protein intake (P < 0.05), but no differences were observed between the types of protein except for total 4E-BP1, which was higher after whey intake than after casein intake (P < 0.05). In conclusion, whey and casein intake immediately after resistance exercise results in an overall equal MPS response despite temporal differences in insulin and amino acid concentrations and 4E-BP1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21045172

Similar study:

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.

PURPOSEetermination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise.
METHODS:Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg.
RESULTS:Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%).
CONCLUSIONS:Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15570142


There is a misconception that there is an "Anabolic Window" that lasts anywhere from thirty minutes to, two hours post workout, depending on who you talk to. However studies have shown otherwise.

For an in-depth response, please read:

Here, I'll help you...........

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

More from earlier in the thread:

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.

In conclusion: Take whichever you prefer. That being said, it isn't necessary to take either whey, casien or protein of any sort, postW.

hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

[JCuvey89]

Actually what Jim said is correct. It has generally been shown that a combination of both fast and slow digesting proteins, in your case whey and casein, is optimal for post workout nutrition. A quote from lyle McDonald:
"Almost without exception, whey was suggested as the best protein for after training to get aminos into the bloodstream more quickly. As noted yesterday, not only is this not true but there is emerging data (discussed in detail in The Protein Book) that fast proteins after training are not the optimal choice for promoting lean body mass gains, slow proteins or a combination of slow and fast proteins appear to be more effective. I’d refer readers back to my article on Milk: The New Sports Drink? A Review where milk outperformed soy (a fast protein) for promoting lean body mass gains.
Others suggested that the combination of whey and casein should be superior to either in isolation; the whey provides a quick hit of aminos to boost protein synthesis while the casein provided a longer source of aminos to blunt protein breakdown. In many ways, this third group would turn out to be closer to correct than either the whey-only or casein-only groups. But I’m getting ahead of myself."

I would post the link but it wont let me. Go to bodyrecomposition dot com and search for What Are Good Sources of Protein? – Speed of Digestion Part 2

When it talks about the milk and soy in this atricle. Wouldnt this mean by using milk (a slow protein) instead of water in your whey shake would provide the same effect as casein and whey? Since its slow and fast combined?

[snorkelman]

Milk is roughly 80% casein and 20% whey.

Already mixed for you.

[JCuvey89]

Milk is roughly 80% casein and 20% whey.

Already mixed for you.

Well thats cool to know. So obviously with my whey protein it would be better to mix w milk then water? But would it still make sense to stack w casein?

[MonsterintheMaking]

Well thats cool to know. So obviously with my whey protein it would be better to mix w milk then water? But would it still make sense to stack w casein?

unnecessary man, mix your whey with milk simply because itll taste better, then eat whatever your heart desires. your total protein intake for the day is what really matters.

[feelsg00dmayne]

be sure to mix oatmeal with dextrose too. (not srs).










OP, doesn't matter what protein you take in. by the end of the day, it's all the same. on the other hand, if you prefer the taste and/or consistency of casein, then i'll allow you to buy it.

[rhizome]

Doctor Stoppani is right. He has a PhD you know right? And have you seen his tats and fatcepts? Pretty impressive. He definitely looks like he knows what he's talking about.

[bertostare]

mix whey with casein for optimal fat burn due more energy needed to break down both !!1!

[JCuvey89]

unnecessary man, mix your whey with milk simply because itll taste better, then eat whatever your heart desires. your total protein intake for the day is what really matters.

Yeah i have optimum double rich chocolate and i was mixin w water for the first couple weeks but after i had it w milk it tastes so good. Question tho. Age 21 5'7 190 how much whey should i take. Ive only been taking one round scoop post workout. I feel like i should be taking whey more

[martyvdb]

Note: there is newer research that resulted in observations where fast absorption protein post work out does enhance MPS to a greater extent.
See research trial info at clinicaltrials.gov # NCT01319513 there are a couple other newer trials related to this topic as well.

I think like most science involving nutrition, over time 'facts' to a degree change.
Probably due to the fact that trials tend to be very small considering the vast populations, and variances in our species as well as even the variances in the finer details of each trial (so many micro variances can greatly sway overall results).

Like others have alluded to, I too think that so long as you regularly provide your body with an appropriate level of nutrients throughout the day, then your body is advanced enough that it will utilize what it has to meet its needs.
Perhaps more of x at moment x might make an ever so slight advantage one way or another, but the advantage or lake thereof is where the debates (and supplement industry) exist. I worry more about ensuring I am well fed an hour or two before my workouts in general - as by then whatever my body may need should already be floating around in me (a generalization I know)

I personally try to eat whole original source unprocessed foods through the day - I do not worry much about pre or post, well a little for pre but mostly regarding energy for my workout. Whole foods will mostly lean toward longer digestion but I do use both Hydrolysed Whey Isolate (easiest on my tummy/GI), and Casein independently now and then because I need to mix it up (variety), I like the tastes, they are convenient, and compared to a lot of my protein choices (steak, sockeye etc) are actually more cost effective. I mix the whey and casein now and then as well - like if I do post work out, or mid-morning if I know my next meal will be a bit further out. I lean to Casein whenever I think my next meal is farther out (no proof for this helps though)
Do I benefit as a result? Not sure, do I suffer as a result? I doubt it.
The faster absorption likely still happens I feel, but perhaps not the entirety of the amount I take as some most likely gets balled up with the casein in my tummy and the which does not gets in right away (so to speak)