In the featured Jim Stoppani 8 nutrition rules article, he recommends taking a whey protein shake mixed with casein after your workout for fast and slow absorbing protein fortification.
Though i've read that you should not take whey with casein because the casein will slow down or disable the fast absorbtion of whey.
I know Jim is reliable, but can i get some reassurance that its better to take whey and casein after workouts than just whey? (aside from creatine and carb drink)
Thread: Mixing Whey with Casein?
08-27-2011, 05:45 PM #1
Mixing Whey with Casein?
08-27-2011, 05:46 PM #2
- Join Date: Jul 2011
- Location: United Kingdom (Great Britain)
- Stats: 6'2", 205 lbs
- Posts: 4,062
- Rep Power: 11877
08-27-2011, 06:04 PM #3
Actually what Jim said is correct. It has generally been shown that a combination of both fast and slow digesting proteins, in your case whey and casein, is optimal for post workout nutrition. A quote from lyle McDonald:
"Almost without exception, whey was suggested as the best protein for after training to get aminos into the bloodstream more quickly. As noted yesterday, not only is this not true but there is emerging data (discussed in detail in The Protein Book) that fast proteins after training are not the optimal choice for promoting lean body mass gains, slow proteins or a combination of slow and fast proteins appear to be more effective. I’d refer readers back to my article on Milk: The New Sports Drink? A Review where milk outperformed soy (a fast protein) for promoting lean body mass gains.
Others suggested that the combination of whey and casein should be superior to either in isolation; the whey provides a quick hit of aminos to boost protein synthesis while the casein provided a longer source of aminos to blunt protein breakdown. In many ways, this third group would turn out to be closer to correct than either the whey-only or casein-only groups. But I’m getting ahead of myself."
I would post the link but it wont let me. Go to bodyrecomposition dot com and search for What Are Good Sources of Protein? – Speed of Digestion Part 2
08-27-2011, 06:23 PM #4
- Join Date: Jul 2008
- Location: United States
- Stats: 5'2", 999 lbs
- Posts: 35,944
- Rep Power: 1074481
whey will still be digested quickly, but you will also have the slow digesting caseinFounder of MMDELAD
"Micros Matter Dont Eat Like A Dumba**" (hydrogenated oils, shortening, mono and di-glycerides don't fit in my macros)
Does Not Count Macros Crew
"Think in terms of limits and the result is limitation
Think in terms of progress and the result is progression"
Training Philosophy to be strong: 1. Pick Weights up off the ground 2. Squat them 3. Push them over your head
08-27-2011, 08:34 PM #5
- Join Date: Nov 2009
- Location: BC, Canada
- Age: 21
- Stats: 5'8", 209 lbs
- Posts: 6,005
- Rep Power: 22483
It wont make a significant difference whether you consume whey vs casein postW. Meal timing is largely irrelevant, therefore making the digestion rate, not an important factor.
Whey (Fast digesting) compared to Casein (Slower digestion) postW.
Whey and casein labeled with L-[1-13C]leucine and muscle protein synthesis: effect of resistance exercise and protein ingestion.
Muscle protein turnover following resistance exercise and amino acid availability are relatively well described. By contrast, the beneficial effects of different sources of intact proteins in relation to exercise need further investigation. Our objective was to compare muscle anabolic responses to a single bolus intake of whey or casein after performance of heavy resistance exercise. Young male individuals were randomly assigned to participate in two protein trials (n = 9) or one control trial (n = 8). Infusion of l-[1-(13)C]leucine was carried out, and either whey, casein (0.3 g/kg lean body mass), or a noncaloric control drink was ingested immediately after exercise. l-[1-(13)C]leucine-labeled whey and casein were used while muscle protein synthesis (MPS) was assessed. Blood and muscle tissue samples were collected to measure systemic hormone and amino acid concentrations, tracer enrichments, and myofibrillar protein synthesis. Western blots were used to investigate the Akt signaling pathway. Plasma insulin and branched-chain amino acid concentrations increased to a greater extent after ingestion of whey compared with casein. Myofibrillar protein synthesis was equally increased 1-6 h postexercise after whey and casein intake, both of which were higher compared with control (P < 0.05). Phosphorylation of Akt and p70(S6K) was increased after exercise and protein intake (P < 0.05), but no differences were observed between the types of protein except for total 4E-BP1, which was higher after whey intake than after casein intake (P < 0.05). In conclusion, whey and casein intake immediately after resistance exercise results in an overall equal MPS response despite temporal differences in insulin and amino acid concentrations and 4E-BP1.
Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
PURPOSEetermination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise.
METHODS:Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg.
RESULTS:Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%).
CONCLUSIONS:Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.
There is a misconception that there is an "Anabolic Window" that lasts anywhere from thirty minutes to, two hours post workout, depending on who you talk to. However studies have shown otherwise.
For an in-depth response, please read:
In conclusion: Take whichever you prefer. That being said, it isn't necessary to take either whey, casien or protein of any sort, postW."Whoa, peanut-butter does look a lot like Cum." - Alan Aragon
IIFYMM- If it fits Your Macros and Micros.
5k+ Link (Please PM me if I forget)
*Unaesthetic Crew* Disregard V-Taper, Acquire PRs
09-01-2011, 08:13 AM #6
09-01-2011, 08:26 AM #7
- Join Date: Sep 2007
- Location: Florida, United States
- Age: 42
- Stats: 5'9", 200 lbs
- Posts: 22,171
- BodyPoints: 417
- Rep Power: 82266
09-01-2011, 08:30 AM #8
09-01-2011, 08:42 AM #9
- Join Date: Nov 2008
- Location: United States
- Age: 27
- Stats: 6'0", 201 lbs
- Posts: 126
- Rep Power: 1158
09-01-2011, 09:20 AM #10
09-01-2011, 09:27 AM #11
09-01-2011, 09:32 AM #12
09-01-2011, 09:41 AM #13
06-10-2012, 09:08 AM #14
- Join Date: Apr 2012
- Location: New Westminster, BC, Canada
- Age: 46
- Stats: 6'4", 193 lbs
- Posts: 10
- Rep Power: 0
Note: there is newer research that resulted in observations where fast absorption protein post work out does enhance MPS to a greater extent.
See research trial info at clinicaltrials.gov # NCT01319513 there are a couple other newer trials related to this topic as well.
I think like most science involving nutrition, over time 'facts' to a degree change.
Probably due to the fact that trials tend to be very small considering the vast populations, and variances in our species as well as even the variances in the finer details of each trial (so many micro variances can greatly sway overall results).
Like others have alluded to, I too think that so long as you regularly provide your body with an appropriate level of nutrients throughout the day, then your body is advanced enough that it will utilize what it has to meet its needs.
Perhaps more of x at moment x might make an ever so slight advantage one way or another, but the advantage or lake thereof is where the debates (and supplement industry) exist. I worry more about ensuring I am well fed an hour or two before my workouts in general - as by then whatever my body may need should already be floating around in me (a generalization I know)
I personally try to eat whole original source unprocessed foods through the day - I do not worry much about pre or post, well a little for pre but mostly regarding energy for my workout. Whole foods will mostly lean toward longer digestion but I do use both Hydrolysed Whey Isolate (easiest on my tummy/GI), and Casein independently now and then because I need to mix it up (variety), I like the tastes, they are convenient, and compared to a lot of my protein choices (steak, sockeye etc) are actually more cost effective. I mix the whey and casein now and then as well - like if I do post work out, or mid-morning if I know my next meal will be a bit further out. I lean to Casein whenever I think my next meal is farther out (no proof for this helps though)
Do I benefit as a result? Not sure, do I suffer as a result? I doubt it.
The faster absorption likely still happens I feel, but perhaps not the entirety of the amount I take as some most likely gets balled up with the casein in my tummy and the which does not gets in right away (so to speak)
By mafi0 in forum Teen BodybuildingReplies: 1Last Post: 05-19-2010, 06:14 AM
By aseid in forum SupplementsReplies: 8Last Post: 04-19-2009, 03:25 PM
By oceansquire in forum NutritionReplies: 3Last Post: 12-21-2007, 11:25 PM
By ForceLineBacker in forum SupplementsReplies: 10Last Post: 01-15-2007, 07:06 PM
By SPG in forum NutritionReplies: 1Last Post: 10-20-2003, 02:27 AM