Payton1221's Journal (as serious as ever)

[Payton1221]

I have been on the sideline too long, and I need to participate firsthand with a journal of my own. I've lifted continuously since I was 18, but I never grew out of the chest/arms mentality of that 18 year old kid. In fact, I had never squatted or deadlifted until January, so I have a lot of room to grow in those areas. Current maxes per 1RM calculations based on 5RMs are:

Deadlift: 270
Bench: 250
Squat: 205 (srs)

My ultimate goal is to be a little bigger and a little leaner (not quite ready to quantify either at the moment). I currently weigh 176#, and I'm probably 16% BF (+/-). I workout in my home where I have a bench, dip bars, pull-up bar, and (homemade) power rack. I have three olympic bars with around 600# of weight and dumbells up to 55#.

I'm currently doing Macow's Intermediate Program, but I replaced the ROWs with chin-ups on Day 1 and with pull-ups on Day 3. I'm within two weeks of hitting my previous maxes (from the built-in deload at the beginning of Madcow), so it's going to get tough and in a hurry, too. Last night's workout was Day 3 of Week 1, and it included:

Squat
85x5
105x5
125x5
145x5
170x3
125x8

Bench
106x5
135x5
160x5
185x5
220x3 (most weight I've benched in over 10 years)
160x8

Pull-ups
BWx13
BWx12
BWx10

Dips
BW+35# x 8
BW+35# x 8
BW+35# x 8

Inclined DB Curls
25x8
25x8
25x8


Feel free to join in and encourage, question, or supplement anything that I've written!

[boathead]

it's about time.

i always like reading about madcow. good stuff.

why did you decide to go with pullups over rows?

[fittofattofit]

Good to see you here and that you've seen the light and started squatting and deadlifting!
Thats where you will see big gains in strength and muscle mass and where you will see your physique developing some balance
I'll be following your progress
Good luck!

[Payton1221]

it's about time.

I was thinking of starting some trash talk about how my bench might surpass yours in the next few months, then I realized that you squat over TWICE what I do *slinks away in corner*

why did you decide to go with pullups over rows?

No compelling reason other than I like chins and pull-ups, and I've never done ROWS. Do you feel as if the rows are a significantly better choice?

[Payton1221]

I'll be following your progress

Thanks, Andrew.

You've since changed your sig, but I liked how you quantified your goal . . . I think it was 170# @ 10%. I will eventually do something similar. I had a hydrodensity test in Feb, and I'm trying to schedule another one at the end of September. I'll use that data to determine a realistic goal, but I suspect it'll be something like 165# @ 12% BF.

[boathead]

No compelling reason other than I like chins and pull-ups, and I've never done ROWS. Do you feel as if the rows are a significantly better choice?

don't get me wrong...i like pullups, probably more so than the next guy. but rows will hit your inner back muscles to a greater extent, and imo, will help your bench to a greater degree. it would be tough for me to go against someone like bill starr, who has the rows in the routine (madcow is just a guy who did a write up on bill starr's intermediate 5x5, and hosted his writeup for a long time on a webpage. the routine became known as "madcow". madcow used to post at bb.com.)

btw....about your arms question from a bit back....try those fat gripz on straight barbell curls, and tell me they don't blow up your arms.

[boathead]

I was thinking of starting some trash talk about how my bench might surpass yours in the next few months

trash talk away homeboy. but better be able to deliver the goods, cuz i'm training bench now.!

[Payton1221]

rows will hit your inner back muscles to a greater extent, and imo, will help your bench to a greater degree.

You had me at "will help your bench," so I'll "tiptoe" into this tonight. I see some form check videos in my not too distant future. I have Rips DVD, and I think I'm doing things right, but if you or Andrew feel qualified to critique my squat, deadlift, and now Rows, I'll upload a video of each in a few weeks.

I think I'm supposed to hit 225x5 in a couple of weeks on the bench, and I'll video that . . . if successful :-)

[boathead]

You had me at "will help your bench," so I'll "tiptoe" into this tonight. I see some form check videos in my not too distant future. I have Rips DVD, and I think I'm doing things right, but if you or Andrew feel qualified to critique my squat, deadlift, and now Rows, I'll upload a video of each in a few weeks.

I think I'm supposed to hit 225x5 in a couple of weeks on the bench, and I'll video that . . . if successful :-)

i'm starting to feel qualified on squats and deads, so post up. rows, not so much. i do t-bar rows and cable rows...i find it less stressful on my lower back, but they hit the target muscles just fine.

andrew knows his shiiit, so perhaps he'll chime in.

[Payton1221]

i do t-bar rows

I did do T-Bar rows when I belonged to a gym many years ago.

To do this in a home gym, could you lay a barbell on the floor and with one end in a corner of your room (for stability), then load up the other side with plates and lift using the two parallel bar/handle that one might use on lat pulldown machine?

[boathead]

sure, why not? the idea is to get a horizontal row, although i prefer to have a slightly wider grip. narrow grip, and my elbows, don't get along too well.

[Brackneyc]

Alright, now we are talking. Subbed for the progress. First posted workout looks good. I will send you a picture of the set-up I use for T-bar rows at home. It is slightly ghetto, but works like a charm.

[Payton1221]

Subbed for the progress.

Craig, I tried to rep you, but it says I have to spread more around before I can rep you again. But, thanks!

I tried rows tonight, i.e., the plain vanilla bend over a barbell kind, and I'll keep them in for a while. So, here's what went down:

Squats
85x5
105x5
130x5
150x5
170x5

Bench
110x5
135x5
165x5
190x5
220x5 (Yeah, Buddy!)

Rows
135x5
145x5
155x5 (starting to feel heavy)
160x5
165x5 (not sure how much was "left in the tank")

Hanging Knee Raises
x20
x12 (what?)
x11
x11

The 220x5 on the bench felt great. This time next week, I've got a date with 225x5!!! It felt great just to hear the "clang" of heavier weight again.

I don't think that I've ever done more than 15 hanging knee raises, so the first set of 20 was a surprise. Thought I might have some staying power but discovered I didn't and only got 12, 11, and 11 on the subsequent sets. I could certainly feel it, though.

Can anyone shed some light on how the weight one does on rows might compare to your bench? My rows were exactly 75% of my bench. Considering that I've never done them before, perhaps the number should be higher, but how much higher? Should your rows equal or exceed your bench?

P.S. Saw my doctor today for my annual physical after going in Tuesday to have blood drawn. My HDL (the good cholesterol) has never been higher at 59 (last year was 45), and earlier this year I started eating on average a dozen eggs every week . . . I'll often eat three whole eggs with two egg whites 3-4 days per week. Not saying that the eggs contributed to the better number, but it appears as if it didn't harm me. Oh, and the triglycerides were lower than last year, too.

P.S.S. Scheduled a hydrodensity test for Sept 23 at the local university. Those results might help me decide if I keep going for strength or take a respite and cut for a period.

[Brackneyc]

Craig, I tried to rep you, but it says I have to spread more around before I can rep you again. But, thanks!

I tried rows tonight, i.e., the plain vanilla bend over a barbell kind, and I'll keep them in for a while. So, here's what went down:

Squats
85x5
105x5
130x5
150x5
170x5

Bench
110x5
135x5
165x5
190x5
220x5 (Yeah, Buddy!)

Rows
135x5
145x5
155x5 (starting to feel heavy)
160x5
165x5 (not sure how much was "left in the tank")

Hanging Knee Raises
x20
x12 (what?)
x11
x11

The 220x5 on the bench felt great. This time next week, I've got a date with 225x5!!! It felt great just to hear the "clang" of heavier weight again.

I don't think that I've ever done more than 15 hanging knee raises, so the first set of 20 was a surprise. Thought I might have some staying power but discovered I didn't and only got 12, 11, and 11 on the subsequent sets. I could certainly feel it, though.

Can anyone shed some light on how the weight one does on rows might compare to your bench? My rows were exactly 75% of my bench. Considering that I've never done them before, perhaps the number should be higher, but how much higher? Should your rows equal or exceed your bench?

P.S. Saw my doctor today for my annual physical after going in Tuesday to have blood drawn. My HDL (the good cholesterol) has never been higher at 59 (last year was 45), and earlier this year I started eating on average a dozen eggs every week . . . I'll often eat three whole eggs with two egg whites 3-4 days per week. Not saying that the eggs contributed to the better number, but it appears as if it didn't harm me. Oh, and the triglycerides were lower than last year, too.

P.S.S. Scheduled a hydrodensity test for Sept 23 at the local university. Those results might help me decide if I keep going for strength or take a respite and cut for a period.

Looks like a very solid effort. The rows are the best back builder imo. Keep them for sure, but look at the many variations of it, including the grip (wide/narrow). I prefer Pendlays over most of the others. I feel these for days.

[fittofattofit]

You had me at "will help your bench," so I'll "tiptoe" into this tonight. I see some form check videos in my not too distant future. I have Rips DVD, and I think I'm doing things right, but if you or Andrew feel qualified to critique my squat, deadlift, and now Rows, I'll upload a video of each in a few weeks.

I think I'm supposed to hit 225x5 in a couple of weeks on the bench, and I'll video that . . . if successful :-)

It's always a good idea to post vids - especially of deadlifts, rows and squats. These are so often performed badly and it's hard to get a view of your own lifting style in a mirror. We all need to work on our form and as you correct one thing you'll see another thing that you can change. It's all about getting the best muscle growth and keeping injury free!

I did do T-Bar rows when I belonged to a gym many years ago.

To do this in a home gym, could you lay a barbell on the floor and with one end in a corner of your room (for stability), then load up the other side with plates and lift using the two parallel bar/handle that one might use on lat pulldown machine?

That's the way that most people do T bar rows - few gyms that I've been in have a proper T bar row machine
I prefer cable rowing, but T bar rows and bent-over rows are great for building up lower back strength that will cross over into your deadlifting and squatting

Bench
110x5
135x5
165x5
190x5
220x5 (Yeah, Buddy!)

Can anyone shed some light on how the weight one does on rows might compare to your bench? My rows were exactly 75% of my bench. Considering that I've never done them before, perhaps the number should be higher, but how much higher? Should your rows equal or exceed your bench?

P.S.S. Scheduled a hydrodensity test for Sept 23 at the local university. Those results might help me decide if I keep going for strength or take a respite and cut for a period.

Nice benching - way to go!!!

Most people who row regularly and who have a good deadlift will have a bent-over row similar to their bench - your lats actually do the power work in both - but the range is huge and depends on how much 'body english' you use and how strong your lower back is!

Go for strength anyway. Strength = muscle = increased lean body mass = increased BMR = stronger, more muscular and leaner.
Win - win - win!

[boathead]

Can anyone shed some light on how the weight one does on rows might compare to your bench? My rows were exactly 75% of my bench. Considering that I've never done them before, perhaps the number should be higher, but how much higher? Should your rows equal or exceed your bench?

good for you on the rows! imo, i think it is smart to go with the regular rows for a while. as far as amount of weight, does it matter? program it just like the other big exercises. i will say, for a first effort, 75% of bench is pretty darn good, imo. i've heard some pundits suggest they should be close to equal, but i don't know, you don't see that very much. fwiw, i can bench 250 for 1, and can row 190 or so for 5. i am NOT saying my ratios are good/bad/indifferent, i'm just saying.

[Payton1221]

Looks like a very solid effort.

Thanks!

Strength = muscle = increased lean body mass = increased BMR = stronger, more muscular and leaner.

Andrew, since you "walk the walk," I think I'll heed your advice your advice. BTW, I didn't know "body English" was used in Australia, too :-)

good for you on the rows!

I figured "why not." I've already gotten out of my comfort zone and started squatting and deadlifting this year, and I'm glad that I did. Besides, if I was so smart, I wouldn't be stuck with 15" arms . . . maybe I'd better follow to the letter a routine made by someone smarter at this than I.

[boathead]

i'm telling you man....throw the fat gripz on straight barbell curls.

[Payton1221]

i'm telling you man....throw the fat gripz on straight barbell curls.

I have done this, and you're right . . . the first time I did it, I felt soreness in my arms like I hadn't in months (years?)!!! I sometimes have some wrist issues with the straight barbell curls, but I'll try this on my accessory day (which is two workouts from now). If my wrists bother me, how do you think the EZ-Bar with the fat gripz would perform?

Mark

[boathead]

the fat gripz may actually alleviate wrist stress. of course, always be mindful of pain.

ez bar hurts my elbows....str. bar hurts my wrists. i chose wrists hurting. no pain with the fat gripz. (i kept it pretty light, though...75lbs as my top set)

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/fat_bar_training.htm

[bamazav]

Subbed. This site can always use another Geezer getting stronger.

[Bo_Flecks]

Subbed. This site can always use another Geezer getting stronger.

I guess as long as we're watching geezers get stronger, I might as well be in, too.

[Payton1221]

Subbed. This site can always use another Geezer getting stronger.

I guess as long as we're watching geezers get stronger, I might as well be in, too.

What you fellow geezers don't know is that while I'm 44, from the neck up I look 54 (lots of gray in both hair and beard). After I start uploading videos, you can honestly say "I look better than some guys several years YOUNGER than me" :-)

Tonight's "Light" Day on Madcow's Intermediate:

Squat
95x5
110x5
135x5
135x5

Incline Bench
85x5
100x5
115x5
135x5 (feeling a little heavy)

Deadlift
150x5
185x5
215x5
245x5

Hanging Knee Raises
x15
x14
x13

Because of a nagging shoulder problem (which has recently gotten better), I haven't done inclined bench in many months . . . in fact, it has even hurt to do flat bench, so what I've logged as "bench" in my previous workouts is actually a decline bench. So, couple a long layoff of incline bench with the fact that my incline always lagged severely behind my bench, that's a recipe for some pretty sorry numbers. When I plugged in what I think I could do on the incline, I really made an educated guess, but tonights 135x5 felt pretty darn heavy. I have a couple micro plates (1.25#) being shipped to me, but my incline bench might be the first exercise to stall. But, I'll try to think positive :-)

[fittofattofit]

I find incline benching the hardest for my shoulders - don't feel that you have to stick to incline bench on the regime if it's hurting - flat will be fine or it might be easier if you lower the angle of the bench . At our 'advanced' ages you have to respect the signals from your body!

[boathead]

i forgot about the inclines...i can't press on that plane. i always substituted overhead press for the inclines on madcow.

[bamazav]

I was having similar issues with flat and incline bench. I have moved to a floor press, which prevents me from going past ||. With a wider grip, I have found that I am actually hitting my pecs better than before. Just a thought.

[Bo_Flecks]

Because of a nagging shoulder problem (which has recently gotten better), I haven't done inclined bench in many months . . . in fact, it has even hurt to do flat bench, so what I've logged as "bench" in my previous workouts is actually a decline bench.

Okay... I saw you say it was "a little heavy" but I didn't see you say there was any pain. That's a good thing.

Where benching is concerned for me, I have rotator cuff pain when I flat bench, but not when I incline bench. After I tweaked the left RC doing flat bench, for several months I could only bench at a 60 degree incline without pain. After that I started incline benching with dumbbells at a 45 degree angle which allowed me to manipulate the angle of my hands enough that the shoulder did not bother me.

Now I have been able to drop the bench back to 45 degrees for incline barbell benching, and down to 30 degrees for dumbbell benching. Anything lower than that for either is still painful.

[Payton1221]

Andrew, Tom, David, Steve, and me: all over 40 and all "tuning" our workouts to accommodate our "uniqueness." C'est la vie OVER 40.

8/29/2011 (Medium Day of Madcow Intermediate)
SQUAT
95x5
105x5
135x5
150x5
175x3
135x8

BENCH
110x5
135x5
165x5
190x5
225x3 (see comments below)
167.5x8 (microweights FTW)

ROWS
135x5
145x5
155x5
160x5
165x5

DIPS
BW+40 x8
BW+40 x8
BW+40 x8

EZ BAR CURLS
EZ_Bar + 35 x8
EZ_Bar + 35 x8
EZ_Bar + 35 x8
* what does your typical EZ Bar weigh? 25#?

DB Skullcrushers
25 x 8
25 x 8
25 x 8

The highlight of the night (perhaps the last 10 years ) is having 225 on the bench again. That wonderful sound of 45's clanging against one another. I know that I had a 4th rep in me, but my next workout I'm scheduled to try for five! I'm video taping that badboy: win, lose, or draw!

I duplicated the same "rows" workout from the previous one. I need to assume that the 165x5 is a max (I think it is) and crank through the numbers for each of my 5 sets in the normal Madcow progression.

Madcow recommends two days of rest between the Medium and the Hard workouts. How critical do you think that is? I like working out every other day, but if I should truly make it 3 workouts per week because that's what's best, then that's what I'll do. It's probably no coincidence that he has the most accessory lift on the workout before the additional day of rest.

[Brackneyc]

Very nice work man, esp the 225. I am heading that way myself. I hope within the next two months or so.

[bamazav]

Very nice. To your question about training frequency, I prefer MWF for fulll body and am currently running MWFSat for push pull legs. You just need to figure out what works best for you. Our recoverability is different for each of us. Give it a try for a couple weeks and see how you can handle it. You can always go back to your current split.