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  1. #1
    My supplement is your mom MrMisanthrope's Avatar
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    Intelligence is mostly genetic, equality is a lie

    Originally Posted by The American
    A landmark article went online a few days ago in the Journal Molecular Psychiatry. The study was prepared by a team of 32 researchers headed by the University of Edinburgh’s Gail Davies and entitled “Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is highly heritable and polygenic.” The study’s methods do not lend themselves to easy explanation unless you’re at home with SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) and inverse variance weighted models used to capture “the variance in the trait that is due to linkage disequilibrium between genotyped SNPs and unknown causal variants.” But the bottom line of the article is reasonably simple. Using nothing but genetic information, the team of researchers was able to establish that the narrow heritability of crystallized intelligence (the kind that can be more easily affected by education) is at least 40 percent. The narrow heritability of fluid intelligence (the kind that involves pure problem-solving ability, independently of acquired knowledge) is at least 51 percent. Note the at least. The study’s authors explicitly state that these estimates are lower bounds.

    Shelves of books and articles denying or minimizing the heritability of IQ have suddenly become obsolete. Those who continue to claim that IQ tests don’t measure anything real inside the brain also have their work cut out for them.

    The American
    Stupids gonna stupid.

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  2. #2
    Registered User StylesOfBeyond's Avatar
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    I thought intelligence being influenced by genetics was something we all knew.
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  3. #3
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    Wait, I thought that Behaviorism was the only acceptable explanation for anything and everything involving the human mind. This article sounds like nothing if not support for rank determinism, as Anthony Comstock would call it.
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  4. #4
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    And furthermore, all men need not be created equally to be treated equally with access to basic equal rights. Honestly, I've never seen anyone use an understanding of the workings of the human mind as a justifiable reason for disliking humanity, because someone who actually understands the workings of the human mind would not see reason for disliking humanity.

    Is this where the obsession with Behaviorism comes from? From the fact that admitting that determinism plays some role in the way humans operate means that there is less of a reason to hate them or dislike them?
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  5. #5
    Registered User frasersteen's Avatar
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    Does nothing to disprove the theory that people in the same family are likely to have been brought up in similar levels of affluence and social standing.
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  6. #6
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by frasersteen View Post
    Does nothing to disprove the theory that people in the same family are likely to have been brought up in similar levels of affluence and social standing.
    Hmm. True, but we must consider inter-family dynamics. Think of the 'middle child' syndrome: parents are too hard on their first child, too easy on the second, so on and so forth. As well, families might treat different gendered children differently: giving more special treatment to one while demanding more work and giving perhaps less praise to the other. There are so many unpredictable elements, it is always interesting to see how siblings turn out.
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  7. #7
    Registered User WMcEnaney's Avatar
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    Conservatives get it right again. Among people, there's no absolute equality. Take that, radical feminists, Marxists . . . Just as I thought, "IQ" sometimes means "idiocy quotient." It can even mean "idempotency quotient." Sorry guys, Viagra is irrelevant to idempotency.
    Last edited by WMcEnaney; 08-22-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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  8. #8
    Registered User frasersteen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    Hmm. True, but we must consider inter-family dynamics. Think of the 'middle child' syndrome: parents are too hard on their first child, too easy on the second, so on and so forth. As well, families might treat different gendered children differently: giving more special treatment to one while demanding more work and giving perhaps less praise to the other. There are so many unpredictable elements, it is always interesting to see how siblings turn out.
    Just playing devils advocate really

    Personally I think it is a combination of both environment and genetics.

    I do think that the OP and it's conclusion is evidence of both a poor environment and poor gentics.

    From this:
    Using nothing but genetic information, the team of researchers was able to establish that the narrow heritability of crystallized intelligence (the kind that can be more easily affected by education) is at least 40 percent. The narrow heritability of fluid intelligence (the kind that involves pure problem-solving ability, independently of acquired knowledge) is at least 51 percent. Note the at least. The study’s authors explicitly state that these estimates are lower bounds.
    To this:
    Shelves of books and articles denying or minimizing the heritability of IQ have suddenly become obsolete. Those who continue to claim that IQ tests don’t measure anything real inside the brain also have their work cut out for them.
    An average of less than 50% using questionable methods of gauging intelligence? Author of the article is a god-damned retard.
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  9. #9
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    Steven Pinker's elucidates this general topic quite well in his book "The Blank Slate", in our society the idea that we're all born with a blank slate is dominant, but science shows otherwise.
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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    Hmm. True, but we must consider inter-family dynamics. Think of the 'middle child' syndrome: parents are too hard on their first child, too easy on the second, so on and so forth. As well, families might treat different gendered children differently: giving more special treatment to one while demanding more work and giving perhaps less praise to the other. There are so many unpredictable elements, it is always interesting to see how siblings turn out.
    When i was in high school, the valedictorian of our class was the younger brother of two previous valedictorians. Their adopted sister was as dumb as a rock. The dad owned a bank and the mom was a pediatrician. Genes ruled.
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    Originally Posted by MathDaddy View Post
    When i was in high school, the valedictorian of our class was the younger brother of two previous valedictorians. Their adopted sister was as dumb as a rock. The dad owned a bank and the mom was a pediatrician. Genes ruled.
    If she has a pretty face and nice pair of hooters, that is all that matters.
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  12. #12
    My supplement is your mom MrMisanthrope's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    Wait, I thought that Behaviorism was the only acceptable explanation for anything and everything involving the human mind. This article sounds like nothing if not support for rank determinism, as Anthony Comstock would call it.
    It is possible for humans to learn to fear reward, therefore behaviorism is wrong.
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    Stupids gonna stupid.
    Mr. M, why are you red?

    Anyway, I like the cynical tone of your posts but you're incorrect on this one, at least as the subject concerns IQ tests.

    Years ago, I used to work with mentally retarded people and that's more than Downs Syndrome. Downs is just a mutation usually associated with older parents, so that's an accident. But, there's all kinds of other unnamed types of mental retardation that no one can explain. I noticed that many of these people had what I'd call highly bizarre and weird parents.

    My guess was that over the ages people degenerated. All humans are connected to people back to the time when we were animals and so over an extremely long time gradually certain people became more and more odd until the oddest had kids and produced a child who would have no kids, the mentally retarded person. Later, I discovered in the early 20th there was the theory of Degeneration which explained what I just said and thought up myself. That picture you posted was an example used at the time.

    Intelligence, the average kind, is something that can be judged but I think only when a smart and fairly objective person observes and is around the less intelligent person for a good period of time, after gathering a lot of info about them.

    IQ Tests: I've studied these extensively and that means all positives and negatives about them. In addition, I've given a number of them and now refuse to do so because I believe they're unethical.

    IQ test are best at not predicting intelligence, just academic success. That's because the most important tests are geared toward explain information and explaining social concepts.

    Example:

    On one of the "best" tests, kids are asked "What is lumber". My experience has shown that white kids in the city know what it is, but black kids from ghetto areas NEVER are able to answer what lumber is. That doesn't mean they're stupid, to me it just means they never see lumber and if they did they might call it wood. The test makes added "what the koran" and "who was Cleopatra" so that blacks can get a couple right, but generally there get almost none correct in the information section.

    There's another section that asks to explain social concepts. Black kids never get this one correct, "If you find a wallet in a store what do you do and why" because they always say they're take it, which put you at a retard level. Also, they can't explain the value of a newspaper, another question, where the ultimate answer is that it helps defend free speech. I believe they don't get these correct because poor people want money, they don't want to return it. Their parents don't buy newspapers because the general idea is that it's all going to be BS written by white people to defend white BS ideas having nothing to do with them.

    Meanwhile, these same kids can break down the entire history of Dragon Ball Z, or whatever popular saga, can make up rap song in a minute, can draw well, are funny, and so, but technically subnormal according to the test results. I'm not shy about putting down black culture, but I'm not a liar either and the kids I've met aren't nearly stupid.

    So, there are stupid people and stupid families, but it's hard to determine who is really stupid and who's ignorant. Testing is not the way to determine it and IQ tests are bogus and verge on evil in my opinion. I say they're evil because people in psychology are taught their faults but keep on giving them anyway.
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    My supplement is your mom MrMisanthrope's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheAdlerian View Post
    Mr. M, why are you red?
    I got mod negged and I'm proud of it.

    It is difficult to determine, but unfortunately I know a thing or two about anthropology and neurobiology. It is entirely possible for a person to waste mental energy on conflicting thought processes in such a fashion that it becomes no more than a neurological energy sink, sapping their ability to solve problems. Resolution of such conflicts results in more mental energy able to dedicate to processing information, resulting in an observable IQ spike.

    It also turns out that the more primitive information processing methods tend to be more efficient than their "sophisticated" counterparts, but harnessing that is a lifestyle as much as it is scientifically "true." Protip, time dilation occurs because of increased processing speed - you get higher "frames per second" processing of reality due to using lower levels of brain function (i.e. less frontal lobe) to process sh*t. That's one way to become a superman, as the vast majority of problems in life require simple mental functions to be done with higher efficiency and fewer errors less than they require more sophisticated abstraction abilities.

    Either way the point still stands, you can't turn a congenital idiot into a Harvard physics professor no matter how much you educate him. It's only possible if you demean the professor position by lowering the standards, actual genius tier achievement is simply not possible for those biologically and genetically unequipped.
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    I got mod negged and I'm proud of it.

    It is difficult to determine, but unfortunately I know a thing or two about anthropology and neurobiology. It is entirely possible for a person to waste mental energy on conflicting thought processes in such a fashion that it becomes no more than a neurological energy sink, sapping their ability to solve problems. Resolution of such conflicts results in more mental energy able to dedicate to processing information, resulting in an observable IQ spike.

    It also turns out that the more primitive information processing methods tend to be more efficient than their "sophisticated" counterparts, but harnessing that is a lifestyle as much as it is scientifically "true." Protip, time dilation occurs because of increased processing speed - you get higher "frames per second" processing of reality due to using lower levels of brain function (i.e. less frontal lobe) to process sh*t. That's one way to become a superman, as the vast majority of problems in life require simple mental functions to be done with higher efficiency and fewer errors less than they require more sophisticated abstraction abilities.

    Either way the point still stands, you can't turn a congenital idiot into a Harvard physics professor no matter how much you educate him. It's only possible if you demean the professor position by lowering the standards, actual genius tier achievement is simply not possible for those biologically and genetically unequipped.
    That's not true. Proir testing has shown mice with genes associated with their intellience removed were able to surpass their normal conterparts in a simulating environment. Gene's may be a big factor but environment shapes us from there(granted we could probably assume normal nice could do even better in a simulating evironment but nonetheless the room for change in ones life time is huge).
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    I got mod negged and I'm proud of it.

    It is difficult to determine, but unfortunately I know a thing or two about anthropology and neurobiology. It is entirely possible for a person to waste mental energy on conflicting thought processes in such a fashion that it becomes no more than a neurological energy sink, sapping their ability to solve problems. Resolution of such conflicts results in more mental energy able to dedicate to processing information, resulting in an observable IQ spike.

    It also turns out that the more primitive information processing methods tend to be more efficient than their "sophisticated" counterparts, but harnessing that is a lifestyle as much as it is scientifically "true." Protip, time dilation occurs because of increased processing speed - you get higher "frames per second" processing of reality due to using lower levels of brain function (i.e. less frontal lobe) to process sh*t. That's one way to become a superman, as the vast majority of problems in life require simple mental functions to be done with higher efficiency and fewer errors less than they require more sophisticated abstraction abilities.

    Either way the point still stands, you can't turn a congenital idiot into a Harvard physics professor no matter how much you educate him. It's only possible if you demean the professor position by lowering the standards, actual genius tier achievement is simply not possible for those biologically and genetically unequipped.
    I agree with your last paragraph, but my previous point was that you have to really watch who you determine is stupid genetically, if you're interested in justice. As I implied, I felt like total sh!t reporting that these nice black kids had low IQs when I knew they did not.

    IQ scores can act as a "heuristic" which means a mental shortcut to answer a complex situation. People will look at those kids' IQ score, see a 90, and treat him or her as an idiot, if they're subject to lazy thinking. Many teachers only have a BA and aren't insightful people and do teach kids in an offhanded manner.
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    So you're saying that the value of a human is based on their IQ score? You tryna be 1337? There are people with literally half my IQ who I still believe have the exact same value as human beings as myself.
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    My genetic brain threshold is akin to Paul Dillets bodybuilding genetic ceiling..... top of the heap, but i'm so ****ing lazy... meh.
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    This is what Herrnstein and Murray have been saying for years. It is fairly common knowledge that 50-80% of intelligence is genetic. However, this really doesn't do anything to discount the impact environment has. Even if 80% of intelligence is genetic that still leaves 1/5 that is influenced by your environment. Theoretically that 1/5 could be the difference between 90-100, which would still discount most "race" based differences we find.

    This is why I feel most people never actually read "The Bell Curve", but instead just recited other people's blurred views of the book. They go through mountains of data, but their main conclusion is that it doesn't matter if the differences are almost all genetic, that doesn't change the fact that we should still be trying to help everyone become a productive member of society (through; education, etc.) because in the end that helps everyone.
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    Originally Posted by TheAdlerian View Post
    I agree with your last paragraph, but my previous point was that you have to really watch who you determine is stupid genetically, if you're interested in justice.
    Promoting the competent and purging the inferior IS justice.
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    Originally Posted by MrMisanthrope View Post
    Promoting the competent and purging the inferior IS justice.
    Yes it is, but we live in a world where many competent people go uneducated while nepotism promotes educated stupid people who seem competent. It's quite a problem to tease out who is what.
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    Originally Posted by MathDaddy View Post
    When i was in high school, the valedictorian of our class was the younger brother of two previous valedictorians. Their adopted sister was as dumb as a rock. The dad owned a bank and the mom was a pediatrician. Genes ruled.
    Sounds like environment had a prominent effect as well. In my own family, as the first child, I was virtually locked in the attic and fed fish heads while my younger brother lived in a relative paradise: my grades in school were abysmal while his were substantial, and yet now, he's an unemployed art school dropout while I'm excelling in nursing school. Life is funny like that.

    Anyway. Like TheAdlerian said, genetics and environment. But its also important to remember that IQ =/= success. There are plenty of extremely intelligent people festering away in their parents' basement and watching reruns of some obscure 80's sitcom while people like Palin and Bachmann make cheddar. Determination is the best indicator for success, though for those two, I imagine being hot AND stupid had something to do with it.
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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    Sounds like environment had a prominent effect as well. In my own family, as the first child, I was virtually locked in the attic and fed fish heads while my younger brother lived in a relative paradise: my grades in school were abysmal while his were substantial, and yet now, he's an unemployed art school dropout while I'm excelling in nursing school. Life is funny like that.

    Anyway. Like TheAdlerian said, genetics and environment. But its also important to remember that IQ =/= success. There are plenty of extremely intelligent people festering away in their parents' basement and watching reruns of some obscure 80's sitcom while people like Palin and Bachmann make cheddar. Determination is the best indicator for success, though for those two, I imagine being hot AND stupid had something to do with it.
    Determination? Sounds like an interesting construct. How would you go about operatonalizing this? Intelligence is the best predictor of success we have. Recent articles that have corrected for artifacts and range restriction have shown that intelligence predicts as much as 70% of the variance in work performance (which is about as close as you can get to success, because after all success is relative to the person; I might think being a teacher is "success", while someone else thinks being a doctor is "success"). So while it does not equal job performance, no 1 predictor will ever equal an outcome. If something equaled something else it would be it.......if intelligence was success then why would it be called something different? They would be the same thing.
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    Lol I forgot how all of Einstein's children, and parents, were also world renowned physicists.
    Lol I forgot how every generation after Socrates were also famous philosophers.

    Oh wait...
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    Originally Posted by AnIrIsHbOy View Post
    OP aren't you a practicing christian? how's it feel to be on the stupid end of the scale?
    Not only incredibly rude, but incorrect.

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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    Sounds like environment had a prominent effect as well. In my own family, as the first child, I was virtually locked in the attic and fed fish heads while my younger brother lived in a relative paradise: my grades in school were abysmal while his were substantial, and yet now, he's an unemployed art school dropout while I'm excelling in nursing school. Life is funny like that.

    Anyway. Like TheAdlerian said, genetics and environment. But its also important to remember that IQ =/= success. There are plenty of extremely intelligent people festering away in their parents' basement and watching reruns of some obscure 80's sitcom while people like Palin and Bachmann make cheddar. Determination is the best indicator for success, though for those two, I imagine being hot AND stupid had something to do with it.
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    Originally Posted by Greco-Roman View Post
    Not only incredibly rude, but incorrect.

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/m...ub-normal.html
    http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-26/h...y?_s=PM:HEALTH
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    Originally Posted by Greco-Roman View Post
    Lol I forgot how all of Einstein's children, and parents, were also world renowned physicists.
    Lol I forgot how every generation after Socrates were also famous philosophers.

    Oh wait...
    theres variability you nitwit, we're not carbon copies of our parents
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    im sure some people have the potential and some dont, but 90% of it is effort. "stupid" people had **** lives and didnt try in school. /thread
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    Pure, raw intellect is certainly genetic. I think environment can overcome it, and just because one may lack raw intellect doesnt mean they cant be smart if they read, study, and are curious............But its like lifting. Some of us( black people) have it more naturally. others can get similar results but its more of a struggle. This is caused by genetic differences. same with intelligence
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