actual natural bodybuilding is a pointless pursuit of a pipe dream

[BuffaJoe]

really this whole over training thing is such bs, yes such a thing exists but you don't over train if you spend more then 45min lifting

god, this.

I work in front of a computer for 9 hours a day, dont do much when I get home from the gym either... Theres no way in hell 60 mins in the gym 5-6 times a week is ruining my CNS

[PlayTheGameBRAH]

I know he isn't natty. but just curious, what are his stats? 99% of miscers have NO idea how to train as a natural lifter, so their perception will be off.

It's impossible. He is not possible natty. Even with amazing genetics he's not while natty

[PlayTheGameBRAH]

Of course not, but I also have a hard time believing that this is the natural genetic limit like everyone is insisting

Yes bro me too. If anything he is over the possible amount for a natty (not srs, semi srs)

Good luck getting a good physique if you're natty and have average genetics. Impossibru

[robwigan]

So im goin to have to start juicin? Iv been goin the gym 9 months. have been thinking alot about gear recently , what sort of health tests should i get?

[PlayTheGameBRAH]

So im goin to have to start juicin? Iv been goin the gym 9 months. have been thinking alot about gear recently , what sort of health tests should i get?

prepare for dem shrunken balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Angra_Mainyu]

I'm not reading this thread, but I can guarantee the last 40 pages are pretty much worthless arguing.
I will only say this:

Natural limits are a lot higher than what most of you think they are, and at the same time, a lot less people are natural than you think they are.

You will be nowhere near your natural limit until you are doing the following:

-Eating up to 2x grams protein per pound of bodyweight (while maintaining excellent digestive health, and proper blood ph)
-Eating to maximize your major chemical balances (testosterone, cortisol, estrogen, leptin, sodium/potassium, etc.)
-Training specifically for hypertrophy AFTER reaching an extremely efficient level of strength and myofibrillar hypertrophy (at least 300 pound bench, 400 pound squat, 500 pound deadlift)
-Dieting VERY slowly to get lean (a recomposition diet, most likely) in order to not lose muscle while getting very lean
-Knowing the difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy, and being able to maximize your potential for both
-Mastering your personal needs of recovery, deloading, frequency, work capacity, etc. and then maximizing those as best you can
-The 5% of difference affected by supplements, being done 100%

What you're supposed to do is do all of that naturally and THEN get on the juice if you really want to get the most out of it.

[robwigan]

prepare for dem shrunken balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Srs man . i thought i was makin progress to a body i wanted this thread has destroyed all motivation lol

[PlayTheGameBRAH]

Srs man . i thought i was makin progress to a body i wanted this thread has destroyed all motivation lol

lol this thread is not srs. It's an inside joke. (semi srs, not srs, srs)

[Straight2Ace]

Srs man . i thought i was makin progress to a body i wanted this thread has destroyed all motivation lol

So did I till the gains slowed RIGHT down.

[CuriousGM]

A thread about not using steroids is gonna lead to people using steroids. Lol'd

[BuffaJoe]

Srs man . i thought i was makin progress to a body i wanted this thread has destroyed all motivation lol

lol brah

newsflash - youre not going to be in a magazine. you can still acheave a reasonable goal, look great and feel great.
This thread is troll satus brah

[PlayTheGameBRAH]

lol brah

newsflash - youre not going to be in a magazine. you can still acheave a reasonable goal, look great and feel great.
This thread is troll satus brah

agreed. Everyone is doing some damn good trolling in this thread (myself included)

This thread is not srs

[noflyingcars]

An idiot is someone who disregards scientific research and evidence that has been done/proven by testing+observing natural drug free bodybuilders/athletes for over 30 years. 'Textbook notes' from sports researchers who have Master's Degrees and are well known individuals *Alan Aragon of this site* are much more credible than any broscience you can spit here.

Typical immaturity. You can't read so you say 'stfu' at anything you don't quite understand or can't respond to.

I like how you keep whining about people disregarding the article you keep linking, but you ignored my post that explains you why your "scientific research" doesn't mean anything.

[Straight2Ace]

I like how you keep whining about people disregarding the article you keep linking, but you ignored my post that explains you why your "scientific research" doesn't mean anything.

LOL OWNED

He just wants to believe so badly his heros havn't been lying to him about juice and he's never gone achieve body he wants.

[NaturalLoco]

status 'trolling' do not care

[SideFX]

I'm callin him out right now. He's absolutely on hormones. Why do we have to lie on this website? Why can't those of us who are using hormones just admit it? I am using hormones. I am on a bicycle right now. I have used hormones many times in the last 2 years. Why do some of you guys feel the need to lie? We are not idiots. Especially us experienced bodybuilders. We know if you are using. So fukin lying in a thread like this only means that you're so insecure about your own self that you have to try to put others down by claiming that you are natural (in other words saying: "look what I can achieve naturally, and you can not.") So I am calling you out. You are a fukin liar. And so are quite a few posters on the misc. If you are using hormones, just admit it. Let me begin:

I am on a cycle.

See.. It's that easy to be honest.

Just curious what logic you are using that makes you so sure that myself and every other natty bodybuilder who has built a comparably admirable physique must be using. What do you think is more likely, every single bodybuilder who claims natty with a good physique is lying, or that maybe you are just underestimating what is possible natty. I have a feeling your logic is that because you have not been able to achieve this yourself it means that it must not be possible for ANYBODY to achieve it. I am going to continue to compete natty because I am natty. You can accuse until you are red in the face but it does not change the facts. I have undergone urinalysis testing and I would gladly submit to any drug testing at any time if that is how the testing were to be conducted because I have nothing to hide. Honestly, if there were a way I could prove 100% to all the haters that I am natty, I would do it. Until then you're free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true outside of your own limited mind.

[amusclehead]

What I've learned in this thread - 98% of misc has been training 2yrs or less and yet knows what to expect after 10-15yrs of training. Good stuff.

[germs1]

Just curious what logic you are using that makes you so sure that myself and every other natty bodybuilder who has built a comparably admirable physique must be using. What do you think is more likely, every single bodybuilder who claims natty with a good physique is lying, or that maybe you are just underestimating what is possible natty. I have a feeling your logic is that because you have not been able to achieve this yourself it means that it must not be possible for ANYBODY to achieve it. I am going to continue to compete natty because I am natty. You can accuse until you are red in the face but it does not change the facts. I have undergone urinalysis testing and I would gladly submit to any drug testing at any time if that is how the testing were to be conducted because I have nothing to hide. Honestly, if there were a way I could prove 100% to all the haters that I am natty, I would do it. Until then you're free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true outside of your own limited mind.

no disrespect but I don't believe for a ****ing second that your natural, I don't know what's psychologically wrong with people like you. why do you feel the compulsion to lie about something so inane? I understand athletes need to lie, but what are yours?

[noflyingcars]

Just curious what logic you are using that makes you so sure that myself and every other natty bodybuilder who has built a comparably admirable physique must be using. What do you think is more likely, every single bodybuilder who claims natty with a good physique is lying, or that maybe you are just underestimating what is possible natty. I have a feeling your logic is that because you have not been able to achieve this yourself it means that it must not be possible for ANYBODY to achieve it. I am going to continue to compete natty because I am natty. You can accuse until you are red in the face but it does not change the facts. I have undergone urinalysis testing and I would gladly submit to any drug testing at any time if that is how the testing were to be conducted because I have nothing to hide. Honestly, if there were a way I could prove 100% to all the haters that I am natty, I would do it. Until then you're free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true outside of your own limited mind.

Number 1.

I'll explain you why: do you know about game theory?

It's an economic theory that explains why different parties in competitions cannot restrain themselves from certain behaviors.
In this discussion, the reasoning is that you are forced to take steroids for the simple fact that you know others will, and that they will beat you if you don't. Even if there are 100 natural bodybuilders that don't want to cycle, there will always be someone that will be willing to do that and he will win because of it. Obvious consequences is that all the other 100 will start juicing too, they are in front of the choice 1) juice 2) lose everything. You will choose the first because well, it's human. You put so much hard work in it (even if you're on gear, no disrespect intended), it's obvious that you can't let it go.

If you really had god-given genetic that you were able to compete natty against other people on gear, well...I would wonder why you don't go pro and become the next Mr. Olympia.
Sure you might be this exception, with 1 in a million genetic. After all we don't have any proof specifically for you. But you have to admit our reasoning is incontrovertible. If we play poker and you win 50 times out of 50 times, do I have proof that you're cheating? No. But I have a legitimate doubt.


Ah, and when we say "steroids" we refer broadly to any performance enhancement drug. Especially HGH, that oddly enough is not possible to test for.



Then, look, gear or no gear I do have respect for your achievements. I know you had to work extremely hard to get where you are even with juice, and your dedication is surely superior to the majority of people in this thread. I also understand why people that juice tend to deny it, because the average person think that you can just inject a couple of times and you magically become like Arnold. Also people accusing of juice usually tend to imply that they themselves could be like that if they only went on gear. Annoying, isn't it?
So I don't have any problem with people denying their enhancement.

I do have a slight problem though, when you (generally, I'm not referring specifically to you) go to a forum that is viewed by inexperienced people and you spread false hopes. You imply that anybody could become like you if they only work hard enough. You and the others don't even say "look I'm natty but I've also been extremely lucky with my genetic, forget to become like me without juice because I was just an exception". You go like "oh yeah, it's all hard work and dedication". "Even my grandma could be a natural bodybuilder if she works hard enough". "If you physique sucks is because you're not dedicated enough". "Hard work hard work hard work". "Your arms are not 17''? work harderrrrr!!!!".

This is making a fool out of people.

[VaraTrucha]

funniest part is where some of the most not natty *******s post up saying "there is no limit, OP is lying"....

retards leading newbs to years of disappointment.

[neosanders]

Implying that all olympic gymnasts are natural.

Absolutely,..you cannot juice and be in the Olympics for crying out loud.

[Mosho]

Absolutely,..you cannot juice and be in the Olympics for crying out loud.

can't you just juice when it's not olympics and stop for the olympics?

[jesse0172]

Absolutely,..you cannot juice and be in the Olympics for crying out loud.

that gymnast u posted is yoeri van gelder he's dutch and he used Perform enchanters and coke,

[D-1Gladiator74]

Just curious what logic you are using that makes you so sure that myself and every other natty bodybuilder who has built a comparably admirable physique must be using. What do you think is more likely, every single bodybuilder who claims natty with a good physique is lying, or that maybe you are just underestimating what is possible natty. I have a feeling your logic is that because you have not been able to achieve this yourself it means that it must not be possible for ANYBODY to achieve it. I am going to continue to compete natty because I am natty. You can accuse until you are red in the face but it does not change the facts. I have undergone urinalysis testing and I would gladly submit to any drug testing at any time if that is how the testing were to be conducted because I have nothing to hide. Honestly, if there were a way I could prove 100% to all the haters that I am natty, I would do it. Until then you're free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true outside of your own limited mind.

no need to feed the trolls bro. people will always accuse you and other natural bodybuilders of steroids because it makes the person feel better about themselves about their crappy physique. its pretty much human nature. hopefully one day these fools can go spend more time in the gym consistently for YEARS and then report back. but i don't think that will happen. they will just continue to use steroids as a magical cure for having a good physique.

[JM3K]

Just curious what logic you are using that makes you so sure that myself and every other natty bodybuilder who has built a comparably admirable physique must be using. What do you think is more likely, every single bodybuilder who claims natty with a good physique is lying, or that maybe you are just underestimating what is possible natty. I have a feeling your logic is that because you have not been able to achieve this yourself it means that it must not be possible for ANYBODY to achieve it. I am going to continue to compete natty because I am natty. You can accuse until you are red in the face but it does not change the facts. I have undergone urinalysis testing and I would gladly submit to any drug testing at any time if that is how the testing were to be conducted because I have nothing to hide. Honestly, if there were a way I could prove 100% to all the haters that I am natty, I would do it. Until then you're free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true outside of your own limited mind.

did someone stand over your shoulder and watch you take that piss? not hard to have a sample ready when they tell you to go into the toilet and fill this cup

Absolutely,..you cannot juice and be in the Olympics for crying out loud.

then why do so many do it? plenty of olympians have been caught doping, probably cause up until they got caught they got away with it just like in all sports

[WormStyleMyMan]

jesus christ you guys need to buy casey butts book on natural limit and shut the fuk up. all of you are talking out of your asses. casey butt is an expert in the history of natural bodybuilding and the genetic limits of what they can achieve.

[ErickStevens]

Number 1.

I'll explain you why: do you know about game theory?

It's an economic theory that explains why different parties in competitions cannot restrain themselves from certain behaviors.
In this discussion, the reasoning is that you are forced to take steroids for the simple fact that you know others will, and that they will beat you if you don't. Even if there are 100 natural bodybuilders that don't want to cycle, there will always be someone that will be willing to do that and he will win because of it. Obvious consequences is that all the other 100 will start juicing too, they are in front of the choice 1) juice 2) lose everything. You will choose the first because well, it's human. You put so much hard work in it (even if you're on gear, no disrespect intended), it's obvious that you can't let it go.

If you really had god-given genetic that you were able to compete natty against other people on gear, well...I would wonder why you don't go pro and become the next Mr. Olympia.
Sure you might be this exception, with 1 in a million genetic. After all we don't have any proof specifically for you. But you have to admit our reasoning is incontrovertible. If we play poker and you win 50 times out of 50 times, do I have proof that you're cheating? No. But I have a legitimate doubt.


Ah, and when we say "steroids" we refer broadly to any performance enhancement drug. Especially HGH, that oddly enough is not possible to test for.



Then, look, gear or no gear I do have respect for your achievements. I know you had to work extremely hard to get where you are even with juice, and your dedication is surely superior to the majority of people in this thread. I also understand why people that juice tend to deny it, because the average person think that you can just inject a couple of times and you magically become like Arnold. Also people accusing of juice usually tend to imply that they themselves could be like that if they only went on gear. Annoying, isn't it?
So I don't have any problem with people denying their enhancement.

I do have a slight problem though, when you (generally, I'm not referring specifically to you) go to a forum that is viewed by inexperienced people and you spread false hopes. You imply that anybody could become like you if they only work hard enough. You and the others don't even say "look I'm natty but I've also been extremely lucky with my genetic, forget to become like me without juice because I was just an exception". You go like "oh yeah, it's all hard work and dedication". "Even my grandma could be a natural bodybuilder if she works hard enough". "If you physique sucks is because you're not dedicated enough". "Hard work hard work hard work". "Your arms are not 17''? work harderrrrr!!!!".

This is making a fool out of people.

Do you even lift?

[Philip81193]

I've been enjoying natural bodybuilding quite a bit these 2 short years I've been lifting. Only got a handle on my nutrition and training 6 months ago, very excited to see where this mass phase will take me.

[prettycoolguy]

SideFX
Stats: 6'0", 232 lbs

Arnold Schwarzenegger
Stats: 6'2", 235 lbs (http://www.schwarzenegger.it/mro/schwarzenegger.html)

I smell something fishy here

[SideFX]

did someone stand over your shoulder and watch you take that piss? not hard to have a sample ready when they tell you to go into the toilet and fill this cup


then why do so many do it? plenty of olympians have been caught doping, probably cause up until they got caught they got away with it just like in all sports

Actually yes, they escort you into the washroom while you are wearing nothing but your posing trunks (cannot hide a sample anywhere) and literally stand there in the washroom with you until you fill the cup.