Benefit of Smith machine squat?

[ManVsIron]

I think I've figured out why Cutler uses the Smith so much, and stays away from the BB. Apparently, he's had back problems over the course of his career... and is trying to avoid re-aggravating them. This got me to wonder...

Every chiropractor I've been to (I go every now and then just for preventive reasons -- just to make sure everything's where it's supposed to be), has said that the BB squat is a horrible exercise, from the ankles all the way up to the upper back. But especially for the knees, hips, and lower back. Plus upper back, if you don't squeeze your scapulae together.

Now, I'm not really in that bandwagon, seeing as how I do BB back squats... just not real heavy, relative to what I could lift (which gets the seal of approval from chiro's). So, I'm well aware that people think "the Smith is for sissies". But here's the thing... the main problem with the BB squat (according to chiropractors) is the tilted angle of the pelvis -- and how that affects the lower back during the exercise (especially w/ heavy loading on the upper back, as you have to lean forward).

I've never actually tried this (yet), but it seems like on the Smith, you could keep your pelvis tilted in such a way (as to lessen the arch of the back), and doing it that way would be a totally different story for the lower back. Obviously you don't need to lean forward (with heavy weight on the upper back), and having the pelvis tilted in the way that's unhealthy for the hips & lower back.

Your thoughts / insults?

[phozosado]

I'm not anti-smith. I'll use it for supplemental movements occasionally. On the other hand, I've found that many chiropractors are compulsive liars, so I wouldn't base any changes to your routine on anything they say.

I've never had any pain from BB squats. Knee injuries from sports have kept me from going super heavy, but I always feel great after doing them.

[supmannn]

You're trolling too obviously now.

[teeeps]

well i've just come back from a year long lower back injury and i was advised by my doc that if i wanted to squat i should use a smith machine. Although my lower back has been okay from squating on the smith machine. I've managed to put a muscle of the right side of my spine into spasm (very painful for a few days but then its okay again) twice know. I've had my form checked by the pt's at the gym and some of the more experienced guys at the gym and they its fine for a smith squat. So really i'd stay away form it, however i've found that high rep front squats atg are alright, but i couldn't possibly explain the reasons for the things above but thats just my personal findings but everyones different

[christos_swc]

Smith or no Smith, if you do not throw that ass back your knees will come forward and that's asking for trouble.
I'm nearing two years on the BB back squat now and the only trouble I've had is I've had to buy new trousers every year.

[k9pit]

Although I've never done a back squat on the smith, I've been thinking about using it for high rep lower weight front squats as a finisher for my leg routine after barbell back squats and RDLs. Especially after reading: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson120.htm

Being that your posture stays pretty upright through the Front Squat movement, it seems like the motion would be more fluid on the Smith vs a Back Squat on it. There's just so much individualistic motion that goes into a back squat that I'd always want to be able to control the entire lift and not be forced in the path that the Smith would create. Doesn't seem good for the upper back and knees to be "forced into a groove" while holding a good amount of weight.......

However again with upper body straight up/down motion with Front Squats it may be a beneficial way to isolate the quads with a deeper ROM than Leg Press without worrying about all the core stabilization needed for free weight barbell since I may be already physically compromised/weaker from doing the Barbell Back Squats and RDLs prior.

[Tommy W.]

You want to do feet forward squats on the Smith. Your back moves linear in this position. Smith squats with feet in the normal position are terrible for you if you're using any kind of real weight

[BringtheNoise]

Somebody ban this guy...

[miamibodybuilder]

well honestly i have lower back issues myself which actually dont allow me to do barbell bent over rows, i have to do them on the smith machine but i do the best with what i can do without hurting my back. an injury can put me out of training for a while so i'm very careful when it comes to my lower back. as far as squats, barbell squats to be honest with you dont really bother my back at all. i do them every other week, the other week i use the smith so i cant say i dont do smith squats. i use anything and everything at my disposal to improve my physique without getting injured. thats the key when training heavy and hard. to train smart. if you have any injury and you cant stay away from the gym like most of us, work around it man.

[Michealleo]

hi for bodybuilders . I'm not a huge fan of these things. They're expensive, and kind of pointless. I really can't think of any exercises thats better on the smith machine I know a lot that are much worse, like squats. Save the serious cash and just get a cage. well hopfully ur all doing fine with this machine . Best of luck
group health spokane wa

[Farley1324]

I think I've figured out why Cutler uses the Smith so much, and stays away from the BB. Apparently, he's had back problems over the course of his career... and is trying to avoid re-aggravating them. This got me to wonder...

Every chiropractor I've been to (I go every now and then just for preventive reasons -- just to make sure everything's where it's supposed to be), has said that the BB squat is a horrible exercise, from the ankles all the way up to the upper back. But especially for the knees, hips, and lower back. Plus upper back, if you don't squeeze your scapulae together.

Now, I'm not really in that bandwagon, seeing as how I do BB back squats... just not real heavy, relative to what I could lift (which gets the seal of approval from chiro's). So, I'm well aware that people think "the Smith is for sissies". But here's the thing... the main problem with the BB squat (according to chiropractors) is the tilted angle of the pelvis -- and how that affects the lower back during the exercise (especially w/ heavy loading on the upper back, as you have to lean forward).

I've never actually tried this (yet), but it seems like on the Smith, you could keep your pelvis tilted in such a way (as to lessen the arch of the back), and doing it that way would be a totally different story for the lower back. Obviously you don't need to lean forward (with heavy weight on the upper back), and having the pelvis tilted in the way that's unhealthy for the hips & lower back.

Your thoughts / insults?

I have a herniated lumbar disc (L5-S1), confirmed via MRI. It has flared up so bad I could barely, and I mean barely, "walk" at about 0.1 mph and God help me if I wanted to stand up or sit down. I still squat free-weight barbell. I keep a close eye on my form and, if anything, they help my back. Even when I was squatting heavier than ever (375x4 below parallel, 405, 380x3, front squat 315x2 max depth) my back was the best it had been in years.

If your squats are hurting you it is probably a form problem.

[Farley1324]

hi for bodybuilders . I'm not a huge fan of these things. They're expensive, and kind of pointless. I really can't think of any exercises thats better on the smith machine I know a lot that are much worse, like squats. Save the serious cash and just get a cage. well hopfully ur all doing fine with this machine . Best of luck

Potentially, say, shrugs or calf raises.

[ManVsIron]

I have a herniated lumbar disc (L5-S1), confirmed via MRI. It has flared up so bad I could barely, and I mean barely, "walk" at about 0.1 mph and God help me if I wanted to stand up or sit down. I still squat free-weight barbell. I keep a close eye on my form and, if anything, they help my back. Even when I was squatting heavier than ever (375x4 below parallel, 405, 380x3, front squat 315x2 max depth) my back was the best it had been in years.

If your squats are hurting you it is probably a form problem.

Nah, my squats aren't causing any pain whatsoever -- no issues. I was just wondering about the whole 'tilt of the pelvis' thing, and the subsequent affect on the lower back (over time), with the heavy BB on the upper back, leaning forward as you go down on the exercise. I can see how maybe that isn't ideal. But is it really "tearing you up"?

Doesn't seem to me like it's really an issue, as long as you have strong muscles around the lower back. But, I dunno... I'm not a doctor. I'm just listening to what they say, with the assumption that years of schooling and experience in their practice -- leads them to know what they're talking about. BUT, maybe not...

Anyway, I just went to a new chiropractor a couple of days ago, that's why I bring this up. He's actually really good. And btw, I'm not even going to tell you what he said about the deadlift. You guys can only take so much, at one time.

well honestly i have lower back issues myself which actually dont allow me to do barbell bent over rows, i have to do them on the smith machine but i do the best with what i can do without hurting my back. an injury can put me out of training for a while so i'm very careful when it comes to my lower back. as far as squats, barbell squats to be honest with you dont really bother my back at all. i do them every other week, the other week i use the smith so i cant say i dont do smith squats. i use anything and everything at my disposal to improve my physique without getting injured. thats the key when training heavy and hard. to train smart. if you have any injury and you cant stay away from the gym like most of us, work around it man.

What was it that led to your lower back issues to begin with, do ya think? Share... so that we can learn from your experience.

[Farley1324]

Nah, my squats aren't causing any pain whatsoever -- no issues. I was just wondering about the whole 'tilt of the pelvis' thing, and the subsequent affect on the lower back (over time), with the heavy BB on the upper back, leaning forward as you go down on the exercise. I can see how maybe that isn't ideal. But is it really "tearing you up"?

Doesn't seem to me like it's really an issue, as long as you have strong muscles around the lower back. But, I dunno... I'm not a doctor. I'm just listening to what they say, with the assumption that years of schooling and experience in their practice -- leads them to know what they're talking about. BUT, maybe not...

Anyway, I just went to a new chiropractor a couple of days ago, that's why I bring this up. He's actually really good. And btw, I'm not even going to tell you what he said about the deadlift. You guys can only take so much, at one time.

Most Doctors don't know sh!t about this.

[ThickAsABrick]

who would win in a fight: your chiro or your orthopedist?

[ManVsIron]

Most Doctors don't know sh!t about this.

Last I knew, there was a natural 'curve in the spine', in the lower back. So, tilting the pelvis in order to get rid of that completely... unless you needed to do that for some personal reason (injury, etc.), why would you "want" to do that anyway?

I mean, if your back is perfectly straight w/ no (normal) curve in it, and you go heavy and load the spine that way... is that really what you want to be doing??

I thought weight belts were primarily to increase abdominal pressure... and create a support from within your body (other of the spine, from within your body). But that doesn't mean you want to totally straighten it out, does it? I don't think I've ever tried loading my spine like that with heavy weights... seems like a great way to get a quick injury.

So, now I really don't know what to think. I'll probably just do what I've always done, and trust my instincts.

[mslman71]

Chiming in on the "good for you" versus "bad for you" bit...

If a professional doesn't appreciate the objective of the lifter then any heavy loads put on the body are going to be seen as unconditionally bad; the risk versus reward is infinite. If one doesn't enjoy driving and has nowhere to go then driving becomes an unwarranted danger since the probability of injury or death is non-zero. The better way to have these discussions is "given that my objectives are A, B and C and I'm going to approach them, generally speaking, with exercises a, b and c, what is the best way to minimize the risk?" My OS doesn't appreciate why I love to lift but he's smart enough to know that he doesn't have to personally agree with it. He simply explains mechanistically what issues I have and we work toward a solution that maximizes the probability of the desired outcome in terms of my goals as well as his.

[ManVsIron]

who would win in a fight: your chiro or your orthopedist?

Well, the orthopedist guy almost looked like a weight lifter... not somebody the avg. guy would want to mess with. BUT... the chiropractor is asian... and it wouldn't surprise me if he was a member of some secret, exclusive Dojo, back East. So... tough to say...

My old chiropractor though, was a little, cute young woman. Whenever she'd be doing adjustments, she'd be saying things like, "mmmhh, uughhh!! Oh, you're sooo... STRONG!!"

"That's right, baby. Now you adjust that hip joint, and then I'll make it all worth your while... later 2-nite!"

I wish I'd said that. Hey, I can always go back...

[ManVsIron]

Chiming in on the "good for you" versus "bad for you" bit...

If a professional doesn't appreciate the objective of the lifter then any heavy loads put on the body are going to be seen as unconditionally bad; the risk versus reward is infinite. If one doesn't enjoy driving and has nowhere to go then driving becomes an unwarranted danger since the probability of injury or death is non-zero. The better way to have these discussions is "given that my objectives are A, B and C and I'm going to approach them, generally speaking, with exercises a, b and c, what is the best way to minimize the risk?" My OS doesn't appreciate why I love to lift but he's smart enough to know that he doesn't have to personally agree with it. He simply explains mechanistically what issues I have and we work toward a solution that maximizes the probability of the desired outcome in terms of my goals as well as his.

Well, there's a surprising amount of people out there that are anti-squat. A couple of days ago, when I went, before you get any adjustments -- you do the electro-stimulation therapy (whatever it's called) to help you relax, and they also have this specialist massage certain points, and do various stretches, etc. I was talking to that guy, and mentioned weight lifting, since he looked like I might have done a fair bit of it in his life.

To my surprise, he was even more anti-squat than the Doctor was! He told me about his personal injuries, and all the horror stories that he'd seen happen to other people in the gym. Ankles buckling & breaking, etc. "Squatting is just all bad... stick with the leg press, man!"

Probably there's a lot of people that just don't know how to squat correctly and safely. But, I don't know what to think, really. Schwarzenegger himself did a lot of squatting, and he's still healthy and mobile in his 60s... so it can't be all THAT bad...

Not to mention, Dorian's not in a wheel chair.

[VoxExMachina]

M v. I: I hereby approve you to stop squatting. Nobody is going to care.

First your doctor told you it was going to kill your knees, now it's chiropractors talking about the spine. You are obviously on an agenda to disparage the back squat so you can feel free to cut them from your program without guilt. Before you start another thread about how back squats are contributing to Global Warming, the Plight of the Polar Bear, and today's 400 point drop on the DOW, let's just cut to the chase and tell you it's okay to just stop doing them.

Thank you, and best of luck with your goals.




P.S. Any exercise can be potentially harmful if not done correctly. So can most sports.

[mslman71]

Yeah, and I damaged the cartilage in my left knee about 12 years ago and had to have surgery as a result of the leg press. Others (if you search the forums) have gotten hernias, hurt their back, etc. There are no guarantees, ever. Pick the routine that meets your needs from a risk/reward perspective, follow it, adjust as necessary, and go on.

[ManVsIron]

Yeah, and I damaged the cartilage in my left knee about 12 years ago and had to have surgery as a result of the leg press. Others (if you search the forums) have gotten hernias, hurt their back, etc. There are no guarantees, ever. Pick the routine that meets your needs from a risk/reward perspective, follow it, adjust as necessary, and go on.

Actually, now that you mention it, the leg press has hurt me more than squats. Before I learned to always lower the seatback all the way on the LP, one time it was up pretty far... and I was going heavy. Damn near broke one of my floating ribs on my left side.

M v. I: I hereby approve you to stop squatting. Nobody is going to care.

First your doctor told you it was going to kill your knees, now it's chiropractors talking about the spine. You are obviously on an agenda to disparage the back squat so you can feel free to cut them from your program without guilt. Before you start another thread about how back squats are contributing to Global Warming, the Plight of the Polar Bear, and today's 400 point drop on the DOW, let's just cut to the chase and tell you it's okay to just stop doing them.

Thank you, and best of luck with your goals.




P.S. Any exercise can be potentially harmful if not done correctly. So can most sports.

Oh, I'm not going to stop squatting gawddammit. I'm just trying to read the warning label as carefully as possible. That's just "my way".

[rutzilla]

Actually, now that you mention it, the leg press has hurt me more than squats. Before I learned to always lower the seatback all the way on the LP, one time it was up pretty far... and I was going heavy. Damn near broke one of my floating ribs on my left side.




Oh, I'm not going to stop squatting gawddammit. I'm just trying to read the warning label as carefully as possible. That's just "my way".

I actually had a chiropractor that advised people to do them when they had normal back problems. He said he did them himself if he was feeling stiff. Good to keep regular back squats in the program unless a serious injury prohibits them. They are way too beneficial to drop completely.

[-Lucifer]

Smith squats FTMFW! People who do bb squats are stupid. They're going to f*ck up their back and knees in the long run.

[Hola Bola]

Tried them... didn't like them. I don't have anything against the smith machine though... I use it for shrugs, CGBP, upright rows, and the occasional shoulder press.

[Farley1324]

Smith squats FTMFW! People who do bb squats are stupid. They're going to f*ck up their back and knees in the long run.

Why did you change your user title away from TROLLERCOASTER?

[-Lucifer]

Why did you change your user title away from TROLLERCOASTER?

I'll change it back after 24 hours. Am just advertizing for Im2m.

[TigerStealth]

honestly i get zero benefit from smith squat. i feel like it is too restrictive, hurts my knees, and obviously does not train stabilizer muscles