Deadlifts first or last on back day/upper day?

[NZninja101]

There's a general rule that usually works well for those trying to gain size and/or strength; to start their workouts with the exercises that allow you to move the most weight, but in the scenario of somebody training with a split where they have a specific back day, or an upper body day, would it be such a bad idea to train deadlift later in the workout, (when training for size rather than strength)? I'm just thinking like this; if you do deadlifts later in the workout, after chins/pull ups, rows, lat pull downs, whatever, then your lats, and to some extent, your traps, will be significantly more fatigued than if you had deadlifts as your first exercise. Because of this, you would not be able to move as much weight, as your back, (presumably upper back), would be much more of a limiting factor when it comes to picking up the bar. But, this could be somewhat advantageous, as it would significantly decrease the chance of your leg day being negatively affected by a back day, as due to your lats and traps being somewhat more fatigued, your legs and lower back would not do as much work and therefore not be so fried when it comes to leg day. Also, and I'm just spitballing here, it could decrease the chance of injuring oneself deadlifting, as the lower back is much less likely to be the limiting factor in this exercise after pre-exhausting the lats and traps.

The counter argument to this is that I'm being a pussy and am trying to decrease the amount of work done by the legs and lower back for no good reason, and if I'm worried about heavy ass deadlifts which hit the legs and lower back hard on back day or upper day, then I need to understand that if the trainee's eating enough, then they won't have this problem on leg day unless the program is messed up in some way.

By the way, I'm not doing a split, but am interested in this topic because I think I eventually will do one

[VW_Haus]

I usually do my deadlifts in the middle of my back day and I am still fine doing heavy weight.

[ttownrepre]

Assuming your doing a upper / lower power day in your split I'd train them in the lower power day as deads use primarily the posterior chain. In this case I'd do them first (though it could be too taxing with squats, so I would either do cycles of deads then cycles of squats or alternate every week.

Or if you want to work primarily back you could look at doing rack pulls (at about knee height) and do these on back day as the role of hamstrings and glutes are decreased relatively + your lower back will be used secondarily throughout back lifts. In this case I'd see no problem by doing them last.

Imo anyway

[Skizoman]

First thing on back day when I am more rested and have the most energy/focus so I don't **** up my form.

[fnares]

It's all preference. I do them last on my back days because once I do my deadlifts, I'm done. Deads take a lot out of me so if I do them first, the rest of my lifts will suffer.

[MrMisanthrope]

First or last?

Yes.

There's the argument for optimal effort, that one should start with moves requiring maximum effort from large muscle groups like deadlifts and olympic lifts, then working down to intermediately sized muscle groups and then eventually isolation exercises for best effect.

Alternately there's the preexhaustion argument, that one should work the smallest muscles first and work up the muscle groups in size, so that the large compound lifts like deadlifts will be done with muscles that are already tired and full of lactic acid.

So sayeth my CSCS book, both work pretty well.

[-rEvolvEr-]

Depends on the individual and their respective goals.

If someone is looking to get stronger they probably should start out deads first.

Personally, I'm training for size and always put deads last. I get too much of a lower back pump to continue lifting.

[i.am.legend]

I would advise you to try doing them first one week, and last the next week, and compare how effective you felt your workout was overall in both scenarios. Everyone's different. I always do pullups first, and deadlifts either second, or last.

[POTA]

I would advise you to try doing them first one week, and last the next week, and compare how effective you felt your workout was overall in both scenarios. Everyone's different. I always do pullups first, and deadlifts either second, or last.

This is what you should try, OP. I personally do them first, though. I used to do them last, but I wasn't seeing much growth and I wasn't going up in weight at a good pace. Since I've been doing them at the beginning, I've been able to lift much heavier weight and the growth in my back has been spectacular. I've also noticed the weight going up in my subsequent exercises (barbell rows, t-bar rows, seated rows, one-armed low cable rows), too, so my back is definitely not too fatigued after deads.

[theshoupguy]

Assuming your doing a upper / lower power day in your split I'd train them in the lower power day as deads use primarily the posterior chain. In this case I'd do them first (though it could be too taxing with squats, so I would either do cycles of deads then cycles of squats or alternate every week.

Or if you want to work primarily back you could look at doing rack pulls (at about knee height) and do these on back day as the role of hamstrings and glutes are decreased relatively + your lower back will be used secondarily throughout back lifts. In this case I'd see no problem by doing them last.

Imo anyway

/thread

[i.am.legend]

This is what you should try, OP. I personally do them first, though. I used to do them last, but I wasn't seeing much growth and I wasn't going up in weight at a good pace. Since I've been doing them at the beginning, I've been able to lift much heavier weight and the growth in my back has been spectacular. I've also noticed the weight going up in my subsequent exercises (barbell rows, t-bar rows, seated rows, one-armed low cable rows), too, so my back is definitely not to fatigued after deads.

I have experienced something similar in the past. When I do deadlifts first, I am stronger on barbell rows. I don't know if its broscience, but I swear I vaguely recall a study which showed that you can "supercharge" your CNS by lifting heavy before you do a lighter set, and getting more reps than if you had gone straight into the lighter set. Relatively speaking, people use less weight on rows than on deadlifts, so when you do your rows, the weight feels light compared to what you were deadlifting earlier.

[mistabigstuff19]

I recover way before my legs day even gets here.

[MayorQuimby]

Definitely depends on the individual. I tend to lift for definition most of the time so I do my dead lifts last. And honestly, I still have good success doing so. But that is just me, I have motor that doesn't stop running. Sometimes it's a curse! lol

[NZninja101]

This is what you should try, OP. I personally do them first, though. I used to do them last, but I wasn't seeing much growth and I wasn't going up in weight at a good pace. Since I've been doing them at the beginning, I've been able to lift much heavier weight and the growth in my back has been spectacular. I've also noticed the weight going up in my subsequent exercises (barbell rows, t-bar rows, seated rows, one-armed low cable rows), too, so my back is definitely not to fatigued after deads.

Yeah, I think I'll just give it a go myself and see how things work out for me, either that or have deads on leg day, and alternate them with squats

[adamrochester]

i like them on leg days some days i do everything2x per week ......so i switch deads and squats up say 2 weeks squats n then 2 weeks deads ive found i gian strength quickly that way so if you count that i do back 4x per week and my back has grone a HEAP !

imo deadlifts for leg days though personal choice i have used both ways and found my way

[NZninja101]

i like them on leg days some days i do everything2x per week ......so i switch deads and squats up say 2 weeks squats n then 2 weeks deads ive found i gian strength quickly that way so if you count that i do back 4x per week and my back has grone a HEAP !

imo deadlifts for leg days though personal choice i have used both ways and found my way

I think I may do things this way. Also we're both 6 foot tall, which isn't super tall, but it probably means you have to bend your legs quite a lot to pick up the bar with good form like I do, (taller people usually=longer legs), meaning that for taller people like us, deads work the quads hard, maybe almost as good as squats even

[first blood]

It's all preference. I do them last on my back days because once I do my deadlifts, I'm done. Deads take a lot out of me so if I do them first, the rest of my lifts will suffer.

Good point. Though i typically devote the entire workout to just deads. Though i always super set with push ups

[subzero2891]

I do them second, after lat pulldowns.

[ManVsIron]

At the end of the session. But not on "back day/upper day". That wouldn't be ideal.

[MEATandVEG]

There was recently an article in a recent muscle fitness magazine, where they took 20 guys on there back and biceps days, 10 would be working there biceps first and 10 there back first, after 4 weeks, they found significantly better gains in the exercise that was first on the workout schedule. The biceps guys had better gains in there biceps than the back guys and vies versa the back guys had better gains in there backs than the biceps guys. We use more energy and form in the first sets of a workout then the last, at which point are bodies are fatigued. So no matter if your reducing the weight to have an easier leg day, your lower back is not going to gain the full benefits as if it were to be performed first. end result your lower back progress will be slower than your legs and upper back.

It would seem apparent that depending on where your weaknesses lye, I would consider performing that body part first. if your happy with progress in both your upper and lower back then why not alternate on a weekly/fortnightly basis. This is always a massive debate about whether to perform your abs at the start or at the end of your workout. It all depends on your goals and how your routine is split.

[Roniboney]

or OP you could try doing overhand raw grip deadlifts on your lower day and really focus on explosive and grip power.If your in this to build your body its form and pace over weight

[bea5tmode]

I like doing them first because I really enjoy them and want to go really heavy.

But recently i've been doing deads on leg day, specifically stiff-legged deads for my hams. Crazy DOMS the next morning let me tell ya. haha.

[biogeek4]

It's all preference. I do them last on my back days because once I do my deadlifts, I'm done. Deads take a lot out of me so if I do them first, the rest of my lifts will suffer.

This is how I am, I feel destroyed after DLs or squats. I did full body for a while and always did the big exercises first. Anything that followed(meaning all exercises) suffered. When I started doing DLs or squats at the end my DLs and Squats stayed the same and my others went up.

I only caution that the DL is a dangerous exercise. By this I mean that if your form slips, you are at a higher risk than most exercises of an injury. Form gets sloppy when you're tired. So don't do them if you are tired.

So, fnares is right, preference. Just figure out how your body works. If you can do them first without other exercises suffering then do them first. If not, figure out if you should do them in the middle or end.

[just1spark]

I find doing deads on their own day with shoulders and arms works for me. That way when I do hit upper back I can go all out.

[adamrochester]

I think I may do things this way. Also we're both 6 foot tall, which isn't super tall, but it probably means you have to bend your legs quite a lot to pick up the bar with good form like I do, (taller people usually=longer legs), meaning that for taller people like us, deads work the quads hard, maybe almost as good as squats even

yeh i set up like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syt7A23YnpA

[KhoraskGTR]

I find past the halfway point of my back training I no longer have the grip strength to go all out with DLs.. because of this I do them pretty early, usually second exercise

[kelly.brandt]

I do them first. If I wait too long it seems to strain my lower back more (have actually injured my back doing deadlifts when I was exhausted). I figure it is because my other muscles are too fatigued to stabilize me properly and I just depend too much on my lower back.

[dethmetalanimal]

I always put my 'main lift' first in my workout. so i would do them first thing.