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  1. #1
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    How many murders are committed by legal concealed pistol holders?

    I remember reading that there have been only a handfull of murderous shootings by legal concealed pistol holders in the United States over the past decade (I can't verify it because the book is back at home), which is of course one logical consequence of making it so annoying to get a permit to carry (another logical consequence is that the vast majority of murderers won't bother to get a permit to carry but will bother to carry through with their intended murder, knowing full well that if they get arrested for the murder, a charge of "illegal firearm possession" will be the least of their worries).

    The Brady Campaign begs to differ: http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/...s-misdeeds.pdf. However, they put forth a very unconvincing argument. The number of actual shootings by permit holders between 1996 and 2009, shown in the black boxes, is 63, and many of those are from accidental discharges or by people whose licenses had expired years ago. The incidents not listed in the black boxes are almost entirely victimless "crimes," mostly carrying a firearm in a prohibited area. For example, the following is one they list from 2007:


    Seattle, WA ٠ 10/23/07. A 23-year-old college student who police declined to identify was
    apprehended at Seattle Central Community College after a fellow student reported him to
    campus security. The man had one loaded weapon in his waistband and two more in his
    backpack, along with ammunition. The man appeared “extremely nervous” and began to cry and shake uncontrollably when questioned by police. Although the college had a policy prohibiting possession of firearms on campus, the policy could not be enforced because the young man reportedly had a valid concealed carry license.

    So the Brady Campaign has shown us less than 63 concrete examples of concealed carry permit holders killing someone with their weapons, either by accident or on purpose. There are approximately 30,000 gun-related deaths in the United States every year, meaning that those belligerent legal handgun carries accounted for approximately less than than [63/((2009-1996+1)*30,000)]*100% = 0.015% of all those deadly killings.

    But that statistic could be wrong and it could be true that, as the Brady Campaign report says, those 63 incidents are only a "fraction of the total number of dangerous and deadly incidents involving concealed carry licensees" because "a suspect’s status as a concealed carry permit-holder is often not reported by law enforcement or the media, and also because such information is steadily becoming less available to the public due to gun lobby intimidation." (Does anyone really believe that the gun lobby is in cahoots with the government in keep concealed carry-related deaths under wraps? C'mon .... in reality the government feels threatened by private firearm possession and would jump on any chance it had to take our firearms away.)
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  2. #2
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    I think 5.
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  3. #3
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    Ur putting a price on a human life.

    People's whose lives were saved by protecting themselves don't matter.

    Also, those 63 people would not have killed anyone, had guns been illegal. They would have followed the law.
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  4. #4
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    how many legally manufactured firearms become "illegal" due to manufacturer, distributor or retailer negligence?


    illegal guns that are used in crimes don't appear out of thin air
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  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by YUL View Post
    how many legally manufactured firearms become "illegal" due to manufacturer, distributor or retailer negligence?


    illegal guns that are used in crimes don't appear out of thin air
    Not many. Most are due to large-scale black market activities that wouldnt be affected one bit by "banning" this already-illegal activity. The main source of a gang's weapons isn't going to be from Remmington's negligence, but from what was ultimately military - state+private, sources

    Are you one of those people who likes to believe in mechanized "state solutions" to societal problems and ills of the human consciousness?
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    Originally Posted by Mtguy8787 View Post
    Not many. Most are due to large-scale black market activities that wouldnt be affected one bit by "banning" this already-illegal activity. The main source of a gang's weapons isn't going to be from Remmington's negligence, but from what was ultimately military - state+private, sources

    Are you one of those people who likes to believe in mechanized "state solutions" to societal problems and ills of the human consciousness?
    Have you heard of the ATF project gunrunner or operation fast and the furious? Our own government got caught allowing straw purchases of guns so the weapons could get into the hands of the mexican drug cartel. They were intentionally selling guns to mexican drug cartel members in order to create a problem so they could have justification for more restrictions of our gun rights. It's being investigated right now and been going on for a while, but the liberal main streem media doesn't cover it. If there was a republican in the white house right now they would be all over it.
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  7. #7
    Registered User YUL's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mtguy8787 View Post
    Not many. Most are due to large-scale black market activities that wouldnt be affected one bit by "banning" this already-illegal activity. The main source of a gang's weapons isn't going to be from Remmington's negligence, but from what was ultimately military - state+private, sources

    Are you one of those people who likes to believe in mechanized "state solutions" to societal problems and ills of the human consciousness?
    just saying law enforcement and gun laws need to focus at the point where guns are sold illegally

    if remington keeps shipping batches to wholesalers that "lose" part of their inventory or are documented as distributing to straw purchasers regularly, i believe they should be held responsible
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by lovemyar15 View Post
    Have you heard of the ATF project gunrunner or operation fast and the furious? Our own government got caught allowing straw purchases of guns so the weapons could get into the hands of the mexican drug cartel. They were intentionally selling guns to mexican drug cartel members in order to create a problem so they could have justification for more restrictions of our gun rights. It's being investigated right now and been going on for a while, but the liberal main streem media doesn't cover it. If there was a republican in the white house right now they would be all over it.
    So within our 'government', there are obviously many networks - just as there are many circles within the 'same school', or 'same community', that can basically operate however they want. Obviously it's not just some naughty little bureaucrat who got a little petulant.

    And you think that some people in congress "cracking down" is going to change the entire structure of the government? Or that a report that says "criminals in government arrested" means that anything actually changed?

    Originally Posted by YUL View Post
    just saying law enforcement and gun laws need to focus at the point where guns are sold illegally

    if remington keeps shipping batches to wholesalers that "lose" part of their inventory or are documented as distributing to straw purchasers regularly, i believe they should be held responsible
    I just said that companies like remington arent the main source. And then you go on talking about how companies like remington should be "held accountable", lol.

    Again, you have, like most people, this idea where if 'the government', just...... 'did something', then some things would 'get better', because the government 'did something'. And the question is not "how are we, as a people, ignorant and unenlightened", but "what can the 'government', 'do', to 'fix our problems'?

    The more I learn, the more absurd this mechanistic view, which permeates every facet of society, appears in my eyes.

    ***

    There's no "place" to "crack down on", any more than there is a "place" to "crack down on" peer pressure.

    Yes, there are solutions, or rather, means of approach. There are no solutions where you "do this", and then "this-good-result-happens", and then you also "do that", and then the "next-piece-of-good-reusults happen".

    But there are none within the consciousness and paradigms of most people, as it stands today.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by Mtguy8787 View Post
    I just said that companies like remington arent the main source. And then you go on talking about how companies like remington should be "held accountable", lol.

    Again, you have, like most people, this idea where if 'the government', just...... 'did something', then some things would 'get better', because the government 'did something'. And the question is not "how are we, as a people, ignorant and unenlightened", but "what can the 'government', 'do', to 'fix our problems'?

    .
    it'be different if private citizens were making their own firearms. if you can prove that a manu. knowingly and willfully sold their products to negligent distributors then yes, they should be held responsible

    same thing goes for b&m and internet retailers and private sellers

    the legal system has to ensure society's well-being, so yes the gov't needs to be involved
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  10. #10
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    To answer OP. In Florida when they legalized CC they started an extensive program to track the crimes committed by the people that were CCing. After something like 5 years they officially quit the program because it cost too much to reveal nothing. I think the biggest incidents were a man who shot someone attacking him who was found innocent by jury, and one incident where a CC actually fired and saved the life of an officer.
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  11. #11
    Registered User SoggyDoughnut's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by YUL View Post
    it'be different if private citizens were making their own firearms. if you can prove that a manu. knowingly and willfully sold their products to negligent distributors then yes, they should be held responsible

    same thing goes for b&m and internet retailers and private sellers

    the legal system has to ensure society's well-being, so yes the gov't needs to be involved
    That is just as ridiculous a notion as penalizing car makers when one of their vehicles is involved in a hit and run or drunk driving incident.
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by SoggyDoughnut View Post
    That is just as ridiculous a notion as penalizing car makers when one of their vehicles is involved in a hit and run or drunk driving incident.
    what about tobacco companies?
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by YUL View Post
    what about tobacco companies?
    A completely different scenario, as supported by countless court decisions and precendents.
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