is carnitine beneficial for cutting *3k reps for good answers*

[IsoMaxx]

just got a couple of these for free, wondering if anyone has any feedback? i have heard some people say it is great for cutting, some people say it is useless. Any opinions?

[Spencelynn]

Carnitine won't do much, if anything for fat loss.

Nice avi though. haha

[Mr.Cooper69]

no.

[Hyruliangoat]

just got a couple of these for free, wondering if anyone has any feedback? i have heard some people say it is great for cutting, some people say it is useless. Any opinions?

Nope.

Now alcar, gplc, and lclt are a diff story in terms of benefits

[bodybuilder987]

just got a couple of these for free, wondering if anyone has any feedback? i have heard some people say it is great for cutting, some people say it is useless. Any opinions?

It won't do anything for fat loss sorry bro.

[ajerone]

if your looking for single ingredients that are effective for fat loss, SNS TTA is one of the best way to go. if your open to more complete formulas, there are plenty of good ones formulated these days

[rhadam]

Diet is best for fat loss lol. But ya i'd look to TTA, VitC or another Cortisol control product, EC, DCP, LCLT can be beneficial as well.

[xStevenx]

oral...no
injectable HELL YES

[KingOfChaos]

if your looking for single ingredients that are effective for fat loss, SNS TTA is one of the best way to go. if your open to more complete formulas, there are plenty of good ones formulated these days

This.

Starting taking TTA three days ago...diet and exercise regime was the same, broke through a 2 week plateau..dropping 2 lbs. in three days.

[ajerone]

This.

Starting taking TTA three days ago...diet and exercise regime was the same, broke through a 2 week plateau..dropping 2 lbs. in three days.

Thats ridiculous! Also don't forget that TTA can cause slight water retention with some users so it's not unheard of that after a TTA run the weight continues to fall off and striations become even more pronounced. Its great stuff...

[Gorac]

Google 'acetyl carnitine' this stuff is pretty special. But mainly for it's cognitive enchancing functions. Might also be useful for fat loss, not entirely convinced of this though.

[_Smitty_]

Google 'acetyl carnitine' this stuff is pretty special. But mainly for it's cognitive enchancing functions. Might also be useful for fat loss, not entirely convinced of this though.

just speaking with a med school student friend of mine about this tonight, who relayed a conversation he had with a professor of his, and the benefits of the acetyl version (including fat loss impact) are significant.

[Gorac]

just speaking with a med school student friend of mine about this tonight, who relayed a conversation he had with a professor of his, and the benefits of the acetyl version (including fat loss impact) are significant.

Sweet . The cognitive enchancing and neuroprotective benefits are exciting enough in themselves. Add potiental fat loss benefits and this may well become a staple in my diet. It's actually not that expensive either if you buy it in bulk.

[IsoMaxx]

What is TTA

[wildthings]

What is TTA

TTA is Tetradecylthioacetic acid

Tetradecylthioacetic acid (TTA) is a non-beta-oxidizable fatty acid analog, which potently regulates lipid homeostasis. Here we evaluate the ability of TTA to prevent diet-induced and genetically determined adiposity and insulin resistance. In Wistar rats fed a high fat diet, TTA administration completely prevented diet-induced insulin resistance and adiposity. In genetically obese Zucker (fa/fa) rats TTA treatment reduced the epididymal adipose tissue mass and improved insulin sensitivity. All three rodent peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR) subtypes were activated by TTA in the ranking order PPARalpha > PPARdelta > PPARgamma. Expression of PPARgamma target genes in adipose tissue was unaffected by TTA treatment, whereas the hepatic expression of PPARalpha-responsive genes encoding enzymes involved in fatty acid uptake, transport, and oxidation was induced. This was accompanied by increased hepatic mitochondrial beta-oxidation and a decreased fatty acid/ketone body ratio in plasma. These findings indicate that PPARalpha-dependent mechanisms play a pivotal role, but additionally, the involvement of PPARalpha-independent pathways is conceivable. Taken together, our results suggest that a TTA-induced increase in hepatic fatty acid oxidation and ketogenesis drains fatty acids from blood and extrahepatic tissues and that this contributes significantly to the beneficial effects of TTA on fat mass accumulation and peripheral insulin sensitivity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11971945

[deserusan]

Yes, but indirectly. It reduces branched-chain keto acid dehydrogenase activity which causes a shift from BCAA metabolism to other substrates such as lipids for energy production in skeletal muscle. In a nutshell, it can spare BCAA breakdown in skeletal muscle when hypocaloric which in theory can spare muscle. Also, while cutting you'd probably want to have your recovery optimized as well as oxygen use in your muscle as your activity levels increase. I can't think of anything else which can do all this in the 1-2 gram dosage range (carnitine tartrate) in all honesty. You want to keep your performance and recovery up while reducing any potential muscle loss correct?

[PinchTheBear]

No.

[deserusan]

No.

Shifting energy metabolism away from BCAA's, enhancing recovery, or reducing O2 consumption needs isn't beneficial while cutting?

[damnglass]

Shifting energy metabolism away from BCAA's, enhancing recovery, or reducing O2 consumption needs isn't beneficial while cutting?

hahaha,i knew des would be able to shed some info on this,however,if your already taking eaa's and a high protein diet,with only short workouts its hard to see much benifit while cutting as the body will use the abundance of amino's you consume and you dont really need more O2.

edit:im all for all forms of carnitine,however people like me wont see as signifigant results as a marathon runner who's a carbaholic or someone who picks up running alongside their weights,that would add a signifigant strain to the body and carnitine would definately help but can be worked around if you know what you are doing.

[Mr.Cooper69]

hahaha,i knew des would be able to shed some info on this,however,if your already taking eaa's and a high protein diet,with only short workouts its hard to see much benifit while cutting as the body will use the abundance of amino's you consume and you dont really need more O2.

He was referring mostly to the benefits of LCLT. Good for fat loss? No. Good for a host of other things, including ergogenic benefits and recovery? Absolutely.

Des, when Pinch and I said "No," we were referring to the fatloss properties of LCLT, not its ability to increase VO2 Max and recovery, which would be beneficial at any time and not exclusively for cutting cycles.

[powercage]

I wouldnt expect significant fatloss for bodybuilding purposes from any form of carnitine

[_Smitty_]

I wouldnt expect significant fatloss for bodybuilding purposes from any form of carnitine

that's not exactly true... enhanced glucose metabolism/disposal resulting from excess acetyl-CoA...

Physiol Rev. 2006 Jan;86(1):205-43.
Skeletal muscle lipid metabolism in exercise and insulin resistance.
Kiens B.

Abstract

Lipids as fuel for energy provision originate from different sources: albumin-bound long-chain fatty acids (LCFA) in the blood plasma, circulating very-low-density lipoproteins-triacylglycerols (VLDL-TG), fatty acids from triacylglycerol located in the muscle cell (IMTG), and possibly fatty acids liberated from adipose tissue adhering to the muscle cells. The regulation of utilization of the different lipid sources in skeletal muscle during exercise is reviewed, and the influence of diet, training, and gender is discussed. Major points deliberated are the methods utilized to measure uptake and oxidation of LCFA during exercise in humans. The role of the various lipid-binding proteins in transmembrane and cytosolic transport of lipids is considered as well as regulation of lipid entry into the mitochondria, focusing on the putative role of AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK), acetyl CoA carboxylase (ACC), and carnitine during exercise. The possible contribution to fuel provision during exercise of circulating VLDL-TG as well as the role of IMTG is discussed from a methodological point of view. The contribution of IMTG for energy provision may not be large, covering approximately 10% of total energy provision during fasting exercise in male subjects, whereas in females, IMTG may cover a larger proportion of energy delivery. Molecular mechanisms involved in breakdown of IMTG during exercise are also considered focusing on hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL). Finally, the role of lipids in development of insulin resistance in skeletal muscle, including possible molecular mechanisms involved, is discussed.

[PinchTheBear]

that's not exactly true... enhanced glucose metabolism/disposal resulting from excess acetyl-CoA...

Normally, during exercise when plasma FFAs are increased, muscle glycogen is collaterally spared due to excess plasma acetyl-CoA, i.e. negative feedback, a ubiquitous mechanism [acetyl-CoA --| pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (PDC]). LCLT supplementation has been shown to have no effect on plasma lipids and/or CHO/FFA metabolism in vivo; however, it has been reported to increase plasma acetylcarnitine, which reverses inhibition of PDC via acetyl-CoA:CoA. Therefore, it may actually (if you can possibly increase muscle carnitine high enough at all) result in increased glycogenolysis, altering substrate oxidation in favor of CHO over FFA.

(see: http://www.uoguelph.ca/hhns/grad/cou...l_Harrison.pdf)

[Mr.Cooper69]

To the above 2 posts, none of this matters for most users because muscle carnitine will not reach relevant levels.

EDIT: My bad Pinch, missed that part.

[powercage]

none of this matters for most users because muscle carnitine will not reach relevant levels.

Correct


------

Thanks Andy

[Inb4bozz3d]

that's not exactly true... enhanced glucose metabolism/disposal resulting from excess acetyl-CoA...

You're grasping at straws. Instead of looking for possible molecular mechanisms you can better search for controlled trials measuring relevant endpoints. And guess what, they don't demonstrate increased fat loss from carnitine supplementation. But there may be a valid explanation for this lack of effect. I'll elaborate further on this.

[Mr.Cooper69]

You're grasping at straws. Instead of looking for possible molecular mechanism you can better search for controlled trials measuring relevant endpoints. And guess what, they don't demonstrate increased fat loss from carnitine supplementation. But there may be a valid explanation for this lack of effect. I'll elaborate further on this.

What a username. Agreed, and in for elaboration.

[PinchTheBear]

But there may be a valid explanation for this lack of effect.

There are several

[Inb4bozz3d]

To the above 2 posts, none of this matters for most users because muscle carnitine will not reach relevant levels.

EDIT: My bad Pinch, missed that part.

I know Pinch isn't going to fully agree with me, but it's recently demonstrated you can raise muscle carnitine content (Wall et al. 2011).
The study used a non-conventional supplementation protocol where subjects had to dose 2 grams of LCLT 2 times a day with 80 grams of a carbohydrate containing beverage. It was speculated (extrapolated on acute insulin IV data) that a raise of insulin to 50 mU/l in combination with carnitine ingestion would increase muscle carnitine content. Indeed the study showed muscle carnitine was increased after 6 months (but not after 3 months). This was accompanied with a 55% reduction in utilised muscle glycogen and other performance benefits.

Anyway, the paper was accompanied with a comment with the title "Boosting fat burning with carnitine: an old friend comes out from the shadow". Here are some interesting snippets:

During the past
30 years, dietary supplementation with
carnitine has been widely used in order
to enhance lipid oxidation and increase
exercise performance. The evidence for an
ergogenic effect of carnitine is, however,
limited and most studies show no effect
of carnitine supplementation on lipid
oxidation. This is hardly unexpected since
there is hitherto no evidence that muscle
carnitine content can be increased by
carnitine feeding in healthy men.
[...]
The carnitine-induced sparing of muscle
glycogen is an important finding and is
consistentwith an increased lipid oxidation.
However, an obvious limitation of this study
is that there are no measurements of lipid
oxidation, which should have been one of
the primary outcomes.
[...]
This well controlled study by Wall et
al. 2011, has broad implications. An
important and robust finding is thatmuscle
carnitine can be increased by dietary means
in subjects without carnitine deficiencies
and that this has a clear influence on
muscle metabolism and performance. The
resultsmay have significant implications for
athletic performance but the requirements
of long-term treatment will most likely
restrict the use of carnitine as an ergogenic
aid. The results may also have some clinical
importance in the treatment of type 2
diabetes and other metabolic diseases,
which are related to a deteriorated lipid
metabolism. It may be anticipated that
further work on this subject will determine
whether carnitine can specifically enhance
lipid oxidation

So while, unfortunately, lipid oxidation wasn't directly measured the muscle glycogen sparing found by this supplementation method might indicate carnitine can be used for body fat loss afterall. Indeed, one of the authors of the paper send an angry letter to the EFSA because they rejected many of claims behind carnitine, without taking account of this paper.

Botom line; if you want to use carnitine (LCLT), for any goal, you better use it long-term, double the conventional dose and use a solid amount of carbs/carbs protein mixture with it .

[Mr.Cooper69]

Yup. Notice how I said "most users." I suspect that using carnitine, year-round, at hefty doses would indeed increase muscle carnitine. But I don't see most people going through the trouble of never cycling off carnitine just to get these benefits.