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  1. #1
    Registered User whitedragon101's Avatar
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    Do you really need to EAT a calorie surplus to gain muscle?

    There seem to be two opposing views on how much you need to eat to gain muscle :

    1) You must eat a calorie surplus to gain muscle.

    2) You only need to eat enough calories to get through your workouts comfortably, if you need more calories to build muscle your body will take it from fat.



    There seem to be a lot of people for argument number 2 but I can't help worrying that the people for argument 1 are right and I am hampering my progress.

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  2. #2
    Registered User hankst's Avatar
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    Muscles are not built with fairy dust and wishful thinking, but it does not take thousands of excess calories either.
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    Theoreticians here read studies all day and claim that you can gain muscle even in deficit.

    Meatheads go out there, lift till they are blue in the face, eat in surplus and gain muscle.
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    The people arguing #2 are usually the people that think they can stay contest lean while adding (substantial) LBM. Is it possible to add muscle without a surplus? Sure. Is it OPTIMAL? Not in the slightest.

    Usually it's the younger crowd that believes #2 and lack LBM to begin with.

    A 10% surplus is an easy way of guaranteeing success (assuming progressive overload in the gym) - it's not rocket science.
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    Originally Posted by whitedragon101 View Post
    There seem to be two opposing views on how much you need to eat to gain muscle :

    1) You must eat a calorie surplus to gain muscle.

    2) You only need to eat enough calories to get through your workouts comfortably, if you need more calories to build muscle your body will take it from fat.
    1) = Calorie surplus = bulk = gain weight much faster
    2) = Calorie surplus = recomp = gain weight much slower

    When the body takes fat from the body for calories, is it not creating a caloric surplus?
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  6. #6
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    Everyone is always looking for a workaround to gaining fat while bulking.

    My advice: get over it. Bulk at a small surplus for several months and lift, lift, lift. Worry about the little bit of fat you will gain later. The earth won't implode if people gain a bit of fat, and you can bulk without gaining a lot of fat.

    The people who fear fat when bulking are the people who stay small. JMO
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    Theoreticians here read studies all day and claim that you can gain muscle even in deficit.

    Meatheads go out there, lift till they are blue in the face, eat in surplus and gain muscle.
    Actually it's the other way round, from what I gathered.

    Meatheads: hurr durr, I lost 40 lbs and put on 20 lbs of pure muscle (when they see a bit more definition)
    Theoreticians: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ng-fat-qa.html
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  8. #8
    Will lift for food. HunterCML's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone claims you can gain mass (or any significant amount) on a deficit. However, some do believe eating around maintenance can cause recomp in some, and that a proper deficit can still yield strength gains.

    I've seen WP post a percentage that interested me a few weeks back, but I can't find the post and I didn't ask him at the time where he found the number but - I believe he said something about the best percentage of recompositioning is like under 3% or something.

    I'm not sure if it was over time, or a specific time frame, or a number he just came up with; perhaps something I just dreampt up? I'm not sure. >3% doesn't sound like a lot but over long periods of time it still sounds like could yield noticeable results.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by hankst View Post
    Actually it's the other way round, from what I gathered.

    Meatheads: hurr durr, I lost 40 lbs and put on 20 lbs of pure muscle (when they see a bit more definition)
    Theoreticians: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ng-fat-qa.html
    By meatheads I meant normal people who actually lift, not bros.
    E.g. - Manu (Bateman), SupaaJ, Paul, phal etc.
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    By meatheads I meant normal people who actually lift, not bros.
    E.g. - Manu (Bateman), SupaaJ, Paul, phal etc.
    Ah, okay, my bad, sorry.
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    Originally Posted by hankst View Post
    Ah, okay, my bad, sorry.
    NP. I consider myself a meathead too.
    I like studies, but I can't read them all day as well as cook. Gotta train too.

    Another example of meathead - AlwaysTryin.
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    Originally Posted by whitedragon101 View Post
    There seem to be two opposing views on how much you need to eat to gain muscle :

    1) You must eat a calorie surplus to gain muscle.

    2) You only need to eat enough calories to get through your workouts comfortably, if you need more calories to build muscle your body will take it from fat.



    There seem to be a lot of people for argument number 2 but I can't help worrying that the people for argument 1 are right and I am hampering my progress.

    Me:
    71kg , 6ft , age 28
    I weight train 1 hr 3-4 times a week
    I consume 2800cals per day
    Protein 1.5grams per kg of bodyweight per day
    people with higher bf% can make muscle gains while in a caloric deficit but even then it will only work until the bf% comes down to a certain level. people with an already lower bf% will not make gains in a deficit. eating 200 to 300 hundred a day over maintenance, will be fine for making gains and anything more than that will just be stored as fat.
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  13. #13
    Registered User whitedragon101's Avatar
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    If I'm looking at eating a small surplus, what do you consider enough calories?

    (me: 71kg , 6ft , 3-4 1hr sessions per week)
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by whitedragon101 View Post
    If I'm looking at eating a small surplus, what do you consider enough calories?

    (me: 71kg , 6ft , 3-4 1hr sessions per week)
    Well, are you gaining/maintaining or losing weight @ 2,800 right now? -_-
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    Registered User whitedragon101's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by phal View Post
    Well, are you gaining/maintaining or losing weight @ 2,800 right now? -_-
    maintaining like a clock, 70-71kg since I started counting training and counting calories 8 weeks ago (although my lifts have increased slightly, and I am a bit leaner).
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    Originally Posted by whitedragon101 View Post
    maintaining like a clock, 70-71kg since I started counting training and counting calories 8 weeks ago (although my lifts have increased slightly, and I am a bit leaner).
    Then add 10% (round it up to 300 calories) on top of 2,800 and re-adjust if weight gain isn't adequate in a few weeks, simple.

    300 calories from whatever macro/mix of macros you want.
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  17. #17
    Registered User whitedragon101's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by phal View Post
    Then add 10% (round it up to 300 calories) on top of 2,800 and re-adjust if weight gain isn't adequate in a few weeks, simple.

    300 calories from whatever macro/mix of macros you want.
    Thanks phal. I have been creeping my calories up by 100 every now and then. I guess I'll creep them up a little more.
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    Theoreticians here read studies all day and claim that you can gain muscle even in deficit.

    Meatheads go out there, lift till they are blue in the face, eat in surplus and gain muscle.


    You do realize that gaining muscle while losing fat is documented right?
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    Originally Posted by phal View Post
    The people arguing #2 are usually the people that think they can stay contest lean while adding (substantial) LBM. Is it possible to add muscle without a surplus? Sure. Is it OPTIMAL? Not in the slightest.

    Usually it's the younger crowd that believes #2 and lack LBM to begin with.

    A 10% surplus is an easy way of guaranteeing success (assuming progressive overload in the gym) - it's not rocket science.
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    Originally Posted by SumDumGoi View Post
    You do realize that gaining muscle while losing fat is documented right?
    Even while going to competition level bodyfat?
    So I just gained muscle while going from 122 to 114 pounds. Honestly, I find it hard to believe.
    Are there DEXA Scans attached?
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    Originally Posted by SumDumGoi View Post
    You do realize that gaining muscle while losing fat is documented right?
    Do you have a link for the study? It would be great to see real research on this.
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    Even while going to competition level bodyfat?
    So I just gained muscle while going from 122 to 114 pounds. Honestly, I find it hard to believe.
    Are there DEXA Scans attached?
    There is going to be some limit obviously and the process is going to be harder to achieve once your body fat levels are extremely low. However, 1) most people posting on this board are not at competition level body fat and this is not a concern & 2) that was not the question being asked.

    If you want this from a more practical point of view, even when you are cutting you should still be trying to train to increase muscle size and strength.
    Last edited by SumDumGoi; 07-14-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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    Originally Posted by whitedragon101 View Post
    Do you have a link for the study? It would be great to see real research on this.
    I have posted this before:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=37
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    Originally Posted by SumDumGoi View Post
    There is going to be some limit obviously and the process is going to be harder to achieve once your body fat levels are extremely low. However, 1) most people posting on this board are not at competition level body fat and this is not a concern & 2) that was not the question being asked.

    If you want this from a more practical point of view, even when you are cutting you should still be trying to train to increase muscle size and strength.
    I increased some lifts, but when I approached competition level bodyfat it became pretty hard and some strength was lost.
    I will check out your links. I thought it was only possible in noobs and in people returning to weights after a break.
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    Originally Posted by whitedragon101 View Post
    Do you have a link for the study? It would be great to see real research on this.
    There is anecdotal evidence all over Martins site. Like many have said, its certainly not optimal but it makes sense if you think about it. Your body is in a constant state of catabolism/anabolism every day. We know that in general your bodies preferred source of fuel is fat and will generally turn to using muscle only in a severe caloric deficit or lack of protein. If you can manage to have short periods of the day where you are adding muscle perhaps after a 16 hour fast followed by a large overfeeding. It sounds plausible that you could end that day with a net muscle gain and a fat loss.

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    ^^^ Thought this as well. Not an optimal condition but in small amounts and over a length of time it can be done.
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    Originally Posted by juliacheh View Post
    I increased some lifts, but when I approached competition level bodyfat it became pretty hard and some strength was lost.
    I will check out your links. I thought it was only possible in noobs and in people returning to weights after a break.
    With very low percent bodyfats I would think it is going to be harder and maybe not possible. It would be very difficult if not impossible to maintain a competition level bodyfat for an extended period of time.
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    Originally Posted by SumDumGoi View Post
    With very low percent bodyfats I would think it is going to be harder and maybe not possible. It would be very difficult if not impossible to maintain a competition level bodyfat for an extended period of time.
    Yes, I am not trying to maintain it now, trying to find my set point without gaining too much fat rapidly. My body is fighting me right now.

    I read this study, very interesting, thanks a lot for posting this.
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    Originally Posted by SumDumGoi View Post
    With very low percent bodyfats I would think it is going to be harder and maybe not possible. It would be very difficult if not impossible to maintain a competition level bodyfat for an extended period of time.
    I am not competition level bodyfat, I spent most of my time lifting in a deficite, I have been lifting for two years now, I haven't been following retarded programs, and I am weak as a kitten, and definitely not jacked. And I also know a thing or two about nutrition.

    What gives?
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    Originally Posted by hankst View Post
    I am not competition level bodyfat, I spent most of my time lifting in a deficite, I have been lifting for two years now, I haven't been following retarded programs, and I am weak as a kitten, and definitely not jacked. And I also know a thing or two about nutrition.

    What gives?
    Your constant use of the word "I" indicates that you are extremely self-centered and selfish. The fact that you can't spell "deficit" and use the word "jacked" indicate that you are not very bright which explains why you may only know "a thing or two" about nutrition. Also I doubt you were in a deficit for 2 years. Also, lay off the catnip.
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