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  1. #1
    █──█ COBBER's Avatar
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    Question 531 Deadlift Question

    This is in reference to Deadlift 531...Is it really necessary to take off 10% 1RM? My current max is 473, 90% of that is 425. Now according to the 531 method I won't be attempting 473-ish for about 5 months, is it correct?

    531 Squat/OHP percentages are fine with me, Bench will continue with Conjugate Method for a while longer...
    Strength is more useful than weakness.

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  2. #2
    RMT jbealsrmt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by COBBER View Post
    This is in reference to Deadlift 531...Is it really necessary to take off 10% 1RM? My current max is 473, 90% of that is 425. Now according to the 531 method I won't be attempting 473-ish for about 5 months, is it correct?
    That is correct... People almost always overestimate their 1RM so his 90% rule is to account for those that do. If you know your TRUE maxes, play it safe by taking off 5% (just in case) and work from there.
    Jonathan Beals, RMT

    Any and all statements made by Jonathan Beals are for educational purposes only and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, prevent disease, or replace the advice of another licensed health-care practitioner.
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  3. #3
    Strength Enthusiast Retardo-pex's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by COBBER View Post
    This is in reference to Deadlift 531...Is it really necessary to take off 10% 1RM? My current max is 473, 90% of that is 425. Now according to the 531 method I won't be attempting 473-ish for about 5 months, is it correct?

    531 Squat/OHP percentages are fine with me, Bench will continue with Conjugate Method for a while longer...
    The idea is that in 5 months when you are using 473 as your training 1rm it will now be 90%ish of your true 1rm because you will be progressing with rep work for those 5 months.
    Current Bests (raw/singleply)

    Squat- 435 / 512.5
    Bench- 280 / 308.5
    Deadlift- 495/ 534

    Goals:

    - Squat 500, Bench 325, Deadlift 550 raw at 181-220.

    - Give the recreational bodybuilder thing a solid effort.
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  4. #4
    RMT jbealsrmt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retardo-pex View Post
    The idea is that in 5 months when you are using 473 as your training 1rm it will now be 90%ish of your true 1rm because you will be progressing with rep work for those 5 months.
    So it would look something like this?

    Using COBBER's numbers his max weeks would look like this...
    Month 1 - Max reps @ 405 (90% of 473 = ~425 | 95% of ~425 = ~405)
    Month 2 - Max reps @ 415 (~95% of 435)
    Month 3 - Max reps @ 425 (~95% of 445)
    Month 4 - Max reps @ 435 (~95% of 455)
    Month 5 - Max reps @ 445 (~95% of 465)

    After 5 months he is repping 445 for a PR. 445 is ~95% of 465. But, theoretically if he makes 5 or 6 reps with 445 his actual new 1RM max would be closer to 500.

    To summarize...
    Actual 1RM @ Month 1 = 473
    Actual 1RM @ Month 5 = ~500 ?

    Am I completely misunderstanding the program or is that correct?
    Last edited by jbealsrmt; 07-14-2011 at 05:53 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by Retardo-pex View Post
    The idea is that in 5 months when you are using 473 as your training 1rm it will now be 90%ish of your true 1rm because you will be progressing with rep work for those 5 months.
    Correct.
    In 5 months time you could be lifting your current 1rm for a set of 5. That's what I did. It was a 1+ day and I got 5 for it.
    You can never start too light on this.
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  6. #6
    Intense as fuk bro austin.j.taylor's Avatar
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    The whole premise is to start light and continue to make gains over a long period of time. You should easily be pulling rep PR's the first week and continue to pull rep PR's until you pull your old max for a few reps.
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  7. #7
    Strength Enthusiast Retardo-pex's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jbealsrmt View Post
    So it would look something like this?

    Using COBBER's numbers his max weeks would look like this...
    Month 1 - Max reps @ 405 (90% of 473 = ~425 | 95% of ~425 = ~405)
    Month 2 - Max reps @ 415 (~95% of 435)
    Month 3 - Max reps @ 425 (~95% of 445)
    Month 4 - Max reps @ 435 (~95% of 455)
    Month 5 - Max reps @ 445 (~95% of 465)

    After 5 months he is repping 445 for a PR. 445 is ~95% of 465. But, theoretically if he makes 5 or 6 reps with 445 his actual new 1RM max would be closer to 500.

    To summarize...
    Actual 1RM @ Month 1 = 473
    Actual 1RM @ Month 5 = ~500 ?

    Am I completely misunderstanding the program or is that correct?

    No that's the jist of it. When you start light enough the first phase your 5/3/1+ week you can be hitting as many as 8-10 reps. I've come close to 20 on my 5+ week in phase one before, it will differ from person to person base don where they are stronger technically and muscularly. For example I progressed well on deadlifts but overhead press was rough even with the 5 lb increments.

    Now when you look at a full year liad out and see how slowly it has you actually progress it doesn't look that impressive, but if you were to not stall for 12 straight months you would add somewhere between 80-120 lbs to your squat and deadlift as well as 25-50 lbs on your overhead press and bench press. Adding 185-290 lbs to your raw powerlifting total is huge and if you are doing the conditioning work and eating for it as well your physique will deifnitly reflect these gains.
    Current Bests (raw/singleply)

    Squat- 435 / 512.5
    Bench- 280 / 308.5
    Deadlift- 495/ 534

    Goals:

    - Squat 500, Bench 325, Deadlift 550 raw at 181-220.

    - Give the recreational bodybuilder thing a solid effort.
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by COBBER View Post
    This is in reference to Deadlift 531...Is it really necessary to take off 10% 1RM? My current max is 473, 90% of that is 425. Now according to the 531 method I won't be attempting 473-ish for about 5 months, is it correct?

    531 Squat/OHP percentages are fine with me, Bench will continue with Conjugate Method for a while longer...
    ALWAYS START LIGHTER than you think you need. The program is set up for long term gains, not an "8 week deadlift fix".

    And secondly, I would not suggest doing conjugate method for bench and 5/3/1 for everything else. The conjugate method is designed to work as one whole system, not just for bench. If your going to use 5/3/1 go all in.

    Now, I am not saying you need to throw away everything you do with the conjugate method. A sample bench day could look like this...

    Bench 5/3/1
    2-Board Close Grip, work to heaviest set of 8, rest 2min and try to match it
    Lat work - Pulldowns or Chin Ups
    Shoulder work

    MY 2 CENTS is to go with 5/3/1 for everything. But you do what you feel is best for you.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by austin.j.taylor View Post
    The whole premise is to start light and continue to make gains over a long period of time. You should easily be pulling rep PR's the first week and continue to pull rep PR's until you pull your old max for a few reps.
    This

    I have made a few 15lb jumps though. I never used to pull conventional (started pulling conventional when I started strongman, which was when I started 5/3/1 as well) so I have been absolutely destroying the reps. Like on 5/3/1 week getting 8+, so I have made a few 15lb jumps, still destroying it though.
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  10. #10
    Ogre in training Black_Spit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retardo-pex View Post
    The idea is that in 5 months when you are using 473 as your training 1rm it will now be 90%ish of your true 1rm because you will be progressing with rep work for those 5 months.
    That's the nest way I've seen it described. Even by Wendler.

    I'm in week 3 of my 10th month, and in my experience with it, eventually I caught up to my 1rm's (where I wasn't using a 90% number anymore) and they have continued to go up.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by pntbll687 View Post
    ALWAYS START LIGHTER than you think you need. The program is set up for long term gains, not an "8 week deadlift fix".

    And secondly, I would not suggest doing conjugate method for bench and 5/3/1 for everything else. The conjugate method is designed to work as one whole system, not just for bench. If your going to use 5/3/1 go all in.

    Now, I am not saying you need to throw away everything you do with the conjugate method. A sample bench day could look like this...

    Bench 5/3/1
    2-Board Close Grip, work to heaviest set of 8, rest 2min and try to match it
    Lat work - Pulldowns or Chin Ups
    Shoulder work

    MY 2 CENTS is to go with 5/3/1 for everything. But you do what you feel is best for you.
    My bench went from 275 to 297+ in about 10ish weeks, haven't done wide grip for 5 weeks now so it may have gone up more. What i'm going to do is go back to wide grip next week and see where im at. If I hit over 300 I will continue with the conjugate method but if i've stalled i'll change to 531. My bench really responds when trained over 90%.

    Cheers brah, I am keen to use 531 for bench but want to milk these gains as much as I can. Have people had good results using Bench531?
    Strength is more useful than weakness.

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  12. #12
    Registered User leche1dura's Avatar
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    I used 435 for my 90% when I had pulled 515 with straps tho. For those who are following 5/3/1 do you guys go all out on deadlift or any other lift or do you leave 1-2 reps in the tank? I know Wendler says to choose your battles but I don't want to half ass it. I was thinking of maybe going all out one week, the next leaving 2 reps in the tank etc.

    How much back work do you guys do? Do you keep it heavy?
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  13. #13
    Ogre in training Black_Spit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leche1dura View Post
    I used 435 for my 90% when I had pulled 515 with straps tho. For those who are following 5/3/1 do you guys go all out on deadlift or any other lift or do you leave 1-2 reps in the tank? I know Wendler says to choose your battles but I don't want to half ass it. I was thinking of maybe going all out one week, the next leaving 2 reps in the tank etc.

    How much back work do you guys do? Do you keep it heavy?
    In my 10 cycles I basically never used the "all out on the last set" stuff. Basically the way I do it is, I'll do 85% for 5 in week 1, 90% for 3 (I've done 5 once or twice if I'm feeling good), and I do the 95% for 2-3 reps almost every time.

    And, my 5 rep sets on deadlift have gone up 85 pounds. Squat 5 rep sets have gone up 35 pounds. Bench 5 reps is up 20-25 pounds.
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  14. #14
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    be patient. i worked off a 415 and 425 deadlift 1rm, but at my last comp i hit 530. go exactly with what is suggested.
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  15. #15
    trying.......... WHT_LIGHTNING's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leche1dura View Post
    I used 435 for my 90% when I had pulled 515 with straps tho. For those who are following 5/3/1 do you guys go all out on deadlift or any other lift or do you leave 1-2 reps in the tank? I know Wendler says to choose your battles but I don't want to half ass it. I was thinking of maybe going all out one week, the next leaving 2 reps in the tank etc.

    How much back work do you guys do? Do you keep it heavy?
    I very rarely go to complete failure but I always strive to destroy the required reps. Pretty much every week, if I am feeling like **** I will just hit the required reps (which I don't think has happened) I generally leave at least 1 complete rep in the tank though.
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    I've been doing the 531 powerlifting for my lifts, and i like it better than regular.

    the idea of doing high rep deadlifts scares me because of the form breakdown that can occur. Hitting your reps and then a few heavier singles 2 weeks out of a month works well for me.
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    trying.......... WHT_LIGHTNING's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by clorox_me View Post
    I've been doing the 531 powerlifting for my lifts, and i like it better than regular.

    the idea of doing high rep deadlifts scares me because of the form breakdown that can occur. Hitting your reps and then a few heavier singles 2 weeks out of a month works well for me.
    That's what I am doing with overhead now since I am using a split jerk. With the deads thing, with strongman we have a lot of deadlift for reps type of events, so I figured practice how you play.
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    Originally Posted by WHT_LIGHTNING View Post
    That's what I am doing with overhead now since I am using a split jerk. With the deads thing, with strongman we have a lot of deadlift for reps type of events, so I figured practice how you play.
    i agree, but the problem is when you are on month 5 of the program, and you're doing reps with 90% of your 1RM, chances of injury are higher than going for heavy singles. Early in the program is fine to do reps.

    Also, you can improve your strength by doing it this way, and you still work your conditioning somewhat with the 5 rep sets. If a contest was coming up, i'd probably get away from 5/3/1 and do more rep based work.
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    Originally Posted by clorox_me View Post
    i agree, but the problem is when you are on month 5 of the program, and you're doing reps with 90% of your 1RM, chances of injury are higher than going for heavy singles. Early in the program is fine to do reps.

    Also, you can improve your strength by doing it this way, and you still work your conditioning somewhat with the 5 rep sets. If a contest was coming up, i'd probably get away from 5/3/1 and do more rep based work.
    yeah, I am about to start month 5 next week. I've been videoing my last sets and form hasn't seemed to break down. We shall see. I don't go to complete failure, so I think form should stay ok.
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    Originally Posted by clorox_me View Post
    I've been doing the 531 powerlifting for my lifts, and i like it better than regular.

    the idea of doing high rep deadlifts scares me because of the form breakdown that can occur. Hitting your reps and then a few heavier singles 2 weeks out of a month works well for me.
    What do you mean by 531 powerlifting? I thought regular 531 is for powerlifting?
    Strength is more useful than weakness.

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    Thanks guys. What do you guys think of doing deficit deads after 5/3/1 deadlifts? I'm thinking of doing these when I go easy on my 5/3/1 top set, as in I will leave like 3 reps in the tank. Good idea?
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    Originally Posted by leche1dura View Post
    Thanks guys. What do you guys think of doing deficit deads after 5/3/1 deadlifts? I'm thinking of doing these when I go easy on my 5/3/1 top set, as in I will leave like 3 reps in the tank. Good idea?
    Give it a shot. I do speed deadlifts after Deadlifts.
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    Originally Posted by leche1dura View Post
    Thanks guys. What do you guys think of doing deficit deads after 5/3/1 deadlifts? I'm thinking of doing these when I go easy on my 5/3/1 top set, as in I will leave like 3 reps in the tank. Good idea?
    Just came back from 531 DL (wave 2). After my final set I did 5x10@50% Deficit DL, I thought it was going to be easy so i started at 60% but that's really pushing it so switched to 50%.

    My advice, start at 5x10@50% and build up to 60% over a few weeks. Feel the burn haha.
    Strength is more useful than weakness.

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    Originally Posted by COBBER View Post
    What do you mean by 531 powerlifting? I thought regular 531 is for powerlifting?
    There is actually a book now that is 5/3/1 for powerlifting. It's basically the normal 5/3/1 with some heavier singles after the prescribed reps and not pushing for rep maxes
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    Originally Posted by COBBER View Post
    Just came back from 531 DL (wave 2). After my final set I did 5x10@50% Deficit DL, I thought it was going to be easy so i started at 60% but that's really pushing it so switched to 50%.

    My advice, start at 5x10@50% and build up to 60% over a few weeks. Feel the burn haha.
    just curious, 50% of your regular dl max?
    440/248/485 = 1173@144 sp

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    Originally Posted by goosefrabbas View Post
    just curious, 50% of your regular dl max?
    yep, my actual max is 215kg, so i did 5x10@107.5kg

    I dunno what it says in the book, but personally if I went any lighter I can't see how it'd be beneficial.
    Last edited by COBBER; 07-14-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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    Pretty sure it is supposed to be 50% of your training max, so you would start with 45% of your actual max.

    Been a while since I have read the book though and I'm not doing BBB
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    Originally Posted by WHT_LIGHTNING View Post
    There is actually a book now that is 5/3/1 for powerlifting. It's basically the normal 5/3/1 with some heavier singles after the prescribed reps and not pushing for rep maxes
    Oh true, so is it not recommended to use regular 531 for powerlifting?
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    Could always use the Ortmayer Program for deadlift.
    Mastell's prod.
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    Originally Posted by COBBER View Post
    Oh true, so is it not recommended to use regular 531 for powerlifting?
    531 is more for pure strength while 531 for PL is more focused on someone who plans to compete in a meet. Asides from the singles, another big difference is that it is actually in a 351 format where the 4 weeks are laid out like: Heavy(3)/Medium(5)/Heavy(1)/Light(deload).

    If you are doing 531 now and seeing continual strength gains, I wouldn't bother switching anything. If it ain't broke, don't fix it
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