In terms of effectiveness (focus, energy, alertness), for those of you who have tried both in BULK, what did you think? Is the NAT worth the extra money (100 g's of Tyr costs $3.59 while the cheapest I can find NAT for is $11.50 for 100 g's), or should I just go with tyrosine?
Thanks ahead of time.
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07-10-2011, 01:20 PM #1
L-Tyrosine vs. N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine
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07-10-2011, 01:23 PM #2
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07-10-2011, 01:25 PM #3
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07-10-2011, 01:27 PM #4
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07-10-2011, 01:30 PM #5
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07-10-2011, 01:31 PM #6
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07-10-2011, 01:36 PM #7
- Join Date: Aug 2009
- Location: Pennsylvania, United States
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I didn't think any benefit over Tyr was worth 4x the cost. For others, the benefit may be more noticeable(just preference). I still don't think it will be enough to justify the cost.
1-2g will suffice, I did fine with 1g.
If you get ALCAR, it taste's like ass too. Has a vinegar smell.
Strong Gatorade powder is your friend.Last edited by Shermanatorx; 07-10-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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07-10-2011, 01:41 PM #8
I am not sure there is much reliable info on how much more effective NAT is, but the feedback is usually good. Wish I could see some more studies either way. Most say you can use a lower dose like 500mg-1g or half what many use for regular tyrosine. I think 2g of regular tyro is good myself and best on a near empty stomach. Ultima has both which I think is pretty cool and a nice generous effective dosing as well. You also get superior choline sources and much more, but I won't get into praising it too much as I am a rep. I have yet to try SPMax flavors with Ultima, but I am guessing you could find one flavor that blends well with Ultima. Might be an interesting mix with nothing significantly overlapping.
Sulbutiamine does taste nasty for sure. Usually only find it in capped products, but it does appear to be a great ingredient.
SAN Launch I think it is called is a cool pre-workout which has NAT, creatine nitrate, sulbutiamine, beta-alanine, 1,3, citrulline malate and caffeine. Sounds like something you'd be interested in from you repsonses here. It is a tablet and if you have the tabs in your mouth even for a second there is a horrible taste noticeable.
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07-10-2011, 01:43 PM #9
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07-10-2011, 01:43 PM #10
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07-10-2011, 01:55 PM #11
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07-10-2011, 02:03 PM #12
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ALCAR masks ingredients well, its smell however... is very sharp.
x2 on the tyrosine at 1-2g. NAT isn't worth the price increase IMO. You could use the difference in cost to get another stimulant / nootropic.At some point in your life you had this idea of who you were going to be someday. That who you were going to be, secretly and unknowingly, starts to become a ball and chain behind you because it becomes who you could have been. Don’t let the burden of regret weigh your dreams down.
Intermittent fasting + DC Training/Myo-Reps Hybrid log
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=133062263
SNS log: Focus XT, Agmatine and DAA
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=134105521
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07-10-2011, 02:17 PM #13
Carnitines are great. I have all the great ones. ALCAR, PLCAR, LCLT, GPLC and even the acetyl l-carnitine arginate that has been shown to stimulate neurite outgrowth.
ALCAR prices have really come down and while the arginine form is very expensive these would be the ideal carnitine nootropics stacked together. I've done them alongside Ultima and you really hit many cognitive nootropic goals and it gets even better when AOR's Ortho Mind is added in at around 2-3 caps.
Neurochem Res. 1995 Jan;20(1):1-9.
Neurite outgrowth in PC12 cells stimulated by acetyl-L-carnitine arginine amide.
Taglialatela G, Navarra D, Olivi A, Ramacci MT, Werrbach-Perez K, Perez-Polo JR, Angelucci L.
SourceInstitute for Research on Senescence Sigma-Tau, Pomezia, Italy.
Abstract
Senescence of the central nervous system is characterized by a progressive loss of neurons that can result in physiological and behavioral impairments. Reduction in the levels of central neurotrophic factors or of neurotrophin receptors may be one of the causes of the onset of these degenerative events. Thus, a proper therapeutic approach would be to increase support to degenerating neurons with trophic factors or to stimulate endogenous neurotrophic activity. Here we report that acetyl-L-carnitine arginine amide (ST-857) is able to stimulate neurite outgrowth in rat pheochromocytoma PC12 cells in a manner similar to that elicited by nerve growth factor (NGF). Neurite induction by ST-857 requires de novo mRNA synthesis and is independent of the action of several common trophic factors. The integrity of the molecular structure of ST-857 is essential for its activity, as the single moieties of the molecule have no effect on PC12 cells, whether they are tested separately or together. Also, minor chemical modifications of ST-857, such as the presence of the arginine moiety at a position other than the amino one, completely abolish its neuritogenic effect. Lastly, the presence of ST-857 in the culture medium competes with the high affinity NGF binding in a dose dependent fashion. These results, although preliminary, are suggestive of a possible role for ST-857 in the development of therapeutic strategies to counteract degenerative diseases of the CNS.
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07-10-2011, 02:54 PM #14
SAN Launch does look like a pretty great product. I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet.
Thanks for the input!
Fa sho.
I was thinking the same thing in regards to your second statement. Possibly some ALCAR .
Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack?
Interesting abstract. I've never heard of the arginine form before.
Repost from above:
Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack? Ideally something that could be taken in pre-workout or in the morning when I'm really dragging ass.
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07-10-2011, 03:05 PM #15
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07-10-2011, 04:39 PM #16
SAN also has a powder version which is different. Along with the other ingredients the tabs version also has Nicotinoyl-GABA aka Picamilon and another B-vitamin analog Fursultiamine. The dosing appears to be legit as well even though it is a prop. blend. It's a pretty underrated and interesting formula.
In terms of choline source I'd def. go with Alpha-GPC or CDP-Choline. You'll get little to no benefit from regular choline if you eat enough eggs and have a decent diet. These advanced choline sources have been clinically shown to be superior and effective in terms of crossing the blood-brain barrier, enhancing focus and cognitive functions. I like A-GPC if your goals are more in the way of pre-workout mind-muscle connection and quicker benefits, more immediate/noticeable benefits... while I like CDP-Choline best used longer term for overall brain functioning, focus and memory. I always felt noticeable strength improvements when using Ultima and I believe it is partly due to the A-GPC content. If you're using both you can lower each dose, but say if you're using just CDP-Choline then 250mg is a good dose just recently shown to be as beneficial as a higher dose for focus. I would prefer Cognizin CDP-Choline and Alpha-Size A-GPC for quality and reliability.
ALCAR would be a wise pickup considering the price you can get it for now. Price to benefits it is a great deal. B12 in methylcobalamin form is beneficial as are some other B-vitamins in coenzyme form. AOR's Advanced B Complex is the best B-vitamin I have ever come across and their Ortho Core also contains most of the same forms of B's.
SAMe also works well in my experience for mood and energy levels. It goes well alongside B's as mentioned above. It can be expensive and quality is a huge issue with it so make sure you know what you're getting.
AOR's Ortho Mind is a cool all-in-one nootropic formula that I like. I am pretty sure they use Cognizin CDP-Choline as well. Even at 2-3 caps/day you really would not need more than that and will notice benefits. It would last a nice while dosed like that. To be honest, my favorite nootropic of all is Cognizin CDP-Choline. From the benefits I have noticed to everything I have read, to me it does more than any one ingredient for enhancing cognitive functioning. I love the stuff!
Phosphatidylserine is an interesting ingredient and you get a nice (not cheap) 75mg dose of it in Ultima.
Of course we all need a quality EPA/DHA source like in fish oil. The is more of a base supplement, but without the base core nutritional ingredients then the other stuff will not work well.
Hope I helped you and didn't add too much info. So for an easy response I would say if you could only add or afford one thing to add in I would say Cognizin CDP-Choline. ALCAR can be found for cheap these days as well and they would really add true benefits to overall cognitive functioning whether pre-workout or early morning... which is how I would dose them... both can be slightly stimulating and dopamine levels should be increased.
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07-10-2011, 05:05 PM #17
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07-10-2011, 08:58 PM #18
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07-11-2011, 01:44 PM #19
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12-05-2011, 04:55 PM #20
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