real advice

[jessedha]

I've tried to post to Tommy Jeffers or Evan Horn for a diet critique since their physiques are exactly what I'm going for, but they've become too busy and probably swamped daily with PM's and emails. Also, no offense to IIFYM, but that should not apply here. It's just my preference, and in order to get to their caliber of physique, you have to diet HARD. For someone who just wants to get lean, I can understand. But to step on stage, or even maintain close to that year-round, limits must be pushed. With that said, here goes. So if you're natural and you have similar goals, have gone through the experience, or just have been given diet advice by tommy or evan in diet, please, I'm asking for your help. I feel like I have a solid diet but I don't know if I'm hindering myself or not. Tommy has given me advice on percentages, and where to set protein intake, but he's said himself that hard dieting isn't just macros and foods.

I can tell you I'm 171 lb right now, and probably shooting for 156, if not 160 by the beginning of August. I am extremely dedicated to dieting hard on eating a few foods because not only am I that motivated, but I also have a short budget to spend on. I only have a few conditions I must follow. Also, on bulking, only thing I'm going to do is eat more food, possibly add in more food sources, but I'm doing everything possible to reach my goal. NO EXCEPTIONS. I've been following the diet I am about to list pretty solidly except for one cheat day a week. But the thing is I just want to know if with this diet, I'm moving forward, staying put, or worse, moving backwards. Here are the only two conditions:

1. Money, which means I can only intake a lb of chicken per day, due to low financial means. This also means that I am willing to eat the same thing day and day out, even for 3-4 meals everyday, same thing. Whatever it takes. Had to state it again to let you know how serious I am.
2. Per Tommy Jeffers' advice, I'm going to stick to 4 meals a day. I'm in this thing for the long haul now, which means bulking will only mean more food, not different food that could be junk. No more messing around, this is a lifestyle now.
Alright so here's my cutting diet: I apologize for the horrible meal timing but I'm getting that under control by tomorrow when I wake up early for the first time in a long time.

1-3 pm P/F/C Calories
4 whole eggs 24/20/0 280
28 g kirkland shredded cheese 6/9/<1 110
2 flour burrito size flour tortillas 8/14/70 440

4-5 pm
8 oz of grilled chicken breast 64/2.5/0 274 (for the calories and macros of chicken and rice, I just ballparked it)
8 oz of white rice raw 12/1/100 450 (It doesn't mean that I eat it raw. I just rather weight and count it raw)

6-7 pm
66 g of whey isolate 58/0/3 1 242
1/2 cup of milk 5/1.25/8 65
80 g of oatmeal 10/6/54 150
drink half pre-workout, and the rest post-workout. Postworkout usually happens around 8-10. Yeah, sometimes I work out for two hours.
10:30 pm
8 oz of grilled 64/2.5/0 274
8 oz of white rice raw 12/1/100 450

11:15 pm
33 g of whey isolate 29/0/1.5 121
1/2 cup of milk 5/1.25/8 65
80 g of oatmeal before bed. 10/6/54 150

Total Macros: 307/64.5/399 3283.5

Critique it as hard as you want as long as you are helping and not trolling. Looking for serious help. Tell me to change sources of food, subtract some things, or for some weird reason, add something. I can tell you that the macros seem a bit high for cutting but for some reason, I seem to be losing fat. Maybe not consistently everyday, but sure enough two weeks later, I am down in weight. Thanks to Alan, Tommy, Evan, and everybody else who has given me advice. Definitely got me in some direction instead of making one up in the dark.

[alfred18]

Also, no offense to IIFYM, but that should not apply here. It's just my preference, and in order to get to their caliber of physique, you have to diet HARD. For someone who just wants to get lean, I can understand.

ur going to get some real flame out of this.

[kevvy83]

Protein that high isn't needed, dietary fat is to low

[TBEagl]

Also, no offense to IIFYM, but that should not apply here. It's just my preference, and in order to get to their caliber of physique, you have to diet HARD.

lol good luck

[jessedha]

Protein that high isn't needed, dietary fat is to low

vague, but still helpful. Protein is pretty high huh? I'm trying to hit 1.5, and the fat too low? that's a first. I know The highest Layne went was 70 g, and his macro and calorie is definitely higher than me because he's much bigger.

[kusok]

[jessedha]

ur going to get some real flame out of this.

See below.

lol good luck

Here we go again. Look for someone like Alberto Nunez, that may work because he actually knows how to play around with the macros and knows exactly how to set them up to make sure his energy levels don't crash, I think that's what he posted one time. But for me? There is no way in hell I'm even half as good as Berto. Look through Tommy's recent posts and he'll back up what I say because he's the one that opened my eyes. In fact, Tommy was at the forefront of the IIFYM movement...til he got this: http://imagecdn.bodybuilding.com/img...aXLW41472.jpeg
instead of this: http://imagecdn.bodybuilding.com/img...ic/1375571.JPG because he decided to "shoved broccoli in his face all day with Scivation Whey, chicken breast and peanut butter" while he was traveling precontest. However, I'm exactly like what Marc posted: during bulking, it's bulking, anything goes, just as long as I'm not overdoing it. I'm going to eat foods I enjoy. But dieting, I have to at least have some kind of structure. I may not be as tight as when dieting, but I still do everything I can and leave almost nothing to chance. And even when I did IIFYM, I noticed eating like a "bro" is so much cheaper. My current meal plan costs about....$65 for a month.

[AlwaysTryin]

Protein that high isn't needed, dietary fat is to low

Contest prep dieting is different.

I'd decrease protein to 250g and increase carbs with the rest

[jessedha]

Contest prep dieting is different.

Macros are fine dude.

Hey what's up man? Been liking your posts from other threads. Actually you can say that I'm contest prepping because I want to get down to the best conditioning possible, and hold it for as long as I can, although I don't plan on competing. So, really no diet is too hard for me right now because I'm way too focused. Thanks for the advice, but you kind of implied that these are horrible macros for dieting. YOW, increase carbs? That's also a first. I thought for sure someone was going to tell me to lower my carbs, I just wanted to know how much. Protein most likely, but 87 g of protein comes from whey protein isolate alone and the pre, post, and bed shake provides 117 g of protein already, so I thought I should increase it since some people could say that I'm not eating protein from solid real food. So if you still think it should be lowered after that reason, I will definitely heed that.

[kusok]

OP, you indeed are "way too" focused

Take small steps man. You're nowhere near the stage where you need to worry about specific food selection, meal timing or frequency. Notice that there are IIFYM followers who are in incredible shape year round.

IMHO relax a bit man...

Calm down, have a piece of cheese:



Set your calories, start from a reasonable macro breakdown such as 1.5g/lb protein, 0.4g/lb fat, the rest in carbs, and adjust from there as needed. Use a legit routine in the gym (not the one you made up yourself), and have patience... That is really all you need. Worrying about wether you eat at 11:15 or 11:30 and wether it will have 18.5 or 18.7 grams fat is silly IMHO. And who is Tommy jeffers? Who cares bro? Just do YOUR thing.

[jessedha]

OP, you indeed are "way too" focused

Take small steps man. You're nowhere near the stage where you need to worry about specific food selection, meal timing or frequency. Notice that there are IIFYM followers who are in incredible shape year round.

IMHO relax a bit man...

Calm down, have a piece of cheese:



Set your calories, start from a reasonable macro breakdown such as 1.5g/lb protein, 0.4g/lb fat, the rest in carbs, and adjust from there as needed. Use a legit routine in the gym (not the one you made up yourself), and have patience...

Ah Kusok, nice to see you again. I was actually extremely impressed at the job you did for acevedo. I guess I can tell you I'm trying to reach a hard goal, but I'm here to listen, so I'll take it in small steps. Please point me to a legit training routine and recommend a caloric load I should set. I'm thinking the calories are a bit too high, but it makes no sense while I still have lost weight after two weeks. Actually, if you could take me on as a student like you did Acevedo(or you gave him a lot of advice) I would very much appreciate it. His old profile pic was so badass.

[AlwaysTryin]

Hey what's up man? Been liking your posts from other threads. Actually you can say that I'm contest prepping because I want to get down to the best conditioning possible, and hold it for as long as I can, although I don't plan on competing. So, really no diet is too hard for me right now because I'm way too focused. Thanks for the advice, but you kind of implied that these are horrible macros for dieting. YOW, increase carbs? That's also a first. I thought for sure someone was going to tell me to lower my carbs, I just wanted to know how much. Protein most likely, but 87 g of protein comes from whey protein isolate alone and the pre, post, and bed shake provides 117 g of protein already, so I thought I should increase it since some people could say that I'm not eating protein from solid real food. So if you still think it should be lowered after that reason, I will definitely heed that.

Starting with carbs as high as possible will make the cut easier. More energy, muscle sparing etc

Set your protein to 250g, leave fats as is and carbs the rest. As you reduce calories cut carbs

Easy - good luck

[jessedha]

Starting with carbs as high as possible will make the cut easier. More energy, muscle sparing etc

Set your protein to 250g, leave fats as is and carbs the rest. As you reduce calories cut carbs

Easy - good luck

Alright then. Where do you suggest I start as the caloric load? After careful analysis, noone has ever cut on 3000 calories. And how much should I reduce by if I don't lose 2 lb per week?

[kusok]

Ah Kusok, nice to see you again. I was actually extremely impressed at the job you did for acevedo. I guess I can tell you I'm trying to reach a hard goal, but I'm here to listen, so I take it in small steps. Please point me to a legit training routine and recommend a caloric load I should set. I'm thinking the calories are a bit too high, but it makes no sense while I still have lost weight after two weeks.

So, fat loss seems to be your initial goal. Great! Use this to get a rough idea of your maintenance and fat loss calories:

http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm


Then adjust from there little by little so that you lose ~1lb weekly. I don't think losing more than 1 lb weekly is a good idea for non-fat people.
An upper/lower such as Lyle McDonald's generic bulking routine (works just as well for cutting of course, just with a bit less volume and/or frequency) would be fine, just don't mess with it.
As you cut maintain the weight on the bar! If you can't you're either over-training or under-resting or under-eating.
Throw in some fun cardio on some rest days 3x per week 30 minutes. Anything you like.

Success is 100% guaranteed, but you will need patience.

I advice against specific food selection or any food avoidance. That stuff leads to binges, fails, and miserable existence I think it's very important to eat what you like when you like assuming of course you make mostly healthful whole food choices and fit that **** in your macroz.

[AlwaysTryin]

Alright then. Where do you suggest I start as the caloric load? After careful analysis, noone has ever cut on 3000 calories. And how much should I reduce by if I don't lose 2 lb per week?

2lb is too much.

You keep asking everyone for help. I'll let Kusok help you, saves my time

[jessedha]

So, fat loss seems to be your initial goal. Great! Use this to get a rough idea of your maintenance and fat loss calories:

http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm


Then adjust from there little by little so that you lose ~1lb weekly. I don't think losing more than 1 lb weekly is a good idea for non-fat people.
An upper/lower such as Lyle McDonald's generic bulking routine (works just as well for cutting of course, just with a bit less volume and/or frequency) would be fine, just don't mess with it.
As you cut maintain the weight on the bar! If you can't you're either over-training or under-resting or under-eating.
Throw in some fun cardio on some rest days 3x per week 30 minutes. Anything you like.

Success is 100% guaranteed, but you will need patience.

I advice against specific food selection or any food avoidance. That stuff leads to binges, fails, and miserable existence I think it's very important to eat what you like when you like assuming of course you make mostly healthful whole food choices.

Thank you! Now that I have a plan I'm going to put in motion. Recap:

Set calorie intake using formula

Set macros using guidelines

Forget meal timing. Just don't be stupid and eat 1-2 meals a day starting at 9 pm. Be reasonable. I really don't have that kind of luxury to avoid specific food selection. That's really all I can eat because that's all I get. There's really not much you can buy with $65 a month. Thank God for whey protein to fill in protein needs and it's mad cheap for me at $4 per lb.

[jessedha]

2lb is too much.

You keep asking everyone for help. I'll let Kusok help you, saves my time

No problem man. Thanks for the replies. You gave out half the advice and he gave the rest. I have a plan and I'm ready for attack tomorrow. Results will be posted by August. Too bad the plan of attack will make me cut my carbs right now by 50% which means only one cup of rice and it only gets lower after that): But I said I'm prepared.

[kusok]

Thank you! Now that I have a plan I'm going to put in motion. Recap:

Set calorie intake using formula

Set macros using guidelines

Forget meal timing. Just don't be stupid and eat 1-2 meals a day starting at 9 pm. Be reasonable. I really don't have that kind of luxury to avoid specific food selection. That's really all I can eat because that's all I get. There's really not much you can buy with $65 a month. Thank God for whey protein to fill in protein needs and it's mad cheap for me at $4 per lb.

That sounds good ^^^ as long as you stick to it. Be flexible, but consistent.

One advantage of going a bit lower on protein and higher on carbs and/or fat is cost haha. Carbs and fat are cheap as phuck, while brotein is usually expensive. Think about how many quality calories you get in a bottle of Olive Oil, or a large package of oats etc. And it's cheap.

Funny you mentioned eating a couple of times at 9 pm, that is actually "Warrior Diet" pretty much. And many people love it. Some people feel better fasted thru the day, some people also feel better working out fasted. And then the large meals at night make it easier to go to sleep. I know some people who make me look like I don't exercise or track macros at all... and they are on Warrior Diet... Go figure.

[AlwaysTryin]

No problem man. Thanks for the replies. You gave out half the advice and he gave the rest. I have a plan and I'm ready for attack tomorrow. Results will be posted by August. Too bad the plan of attack will make me cut my carbs right now by 50% which means only one cup of rice and it only gets lower after that): But I said I'm prepared.

Sounds like a bad plan then.

Good luck

[cut4dayz]

i'm also around 170 and cutting..i ate around 1800-2000 to lose 2lbs/ week.. but haven't lost much for a month lol...so..not sure how you gonna cut at 3k.. you do a lot of cardio?

[jessedha]

That sounds good ^^^ as long as you stick to it. Be flexible, but consistent.

One advantage of going a bit lower on protein and higher on carbs and/or fat is cost haha. Carbs and fat are cheap as phuck, while brotein is usually expensive. Think about how many quality calories you get in a bottle of Olive Oil, or a large package of oats etc. And it's cheap.

Funny you mentioned eating a couple of times at 9 pm, that is actually "Warrior Diet" pretty much. And many people love it. Some people feel better fasted thru the day, some people also feel better working out fasted. And then the large meals at night make it easier to go to sleep. I know some people who make me look like I don't exercise or track macros at all... and they are on Warrior Diet... Go figure.

Seriously? Well, I guess that's the next step then(: But the final step is to achieve a physique that's almost as good as Evan Horn's.

[juliacheh]

You are not at the stage yet where you have to be concerned with what pro bodybuilders do.
You are not a special snowflake, you goal is like everybody else's here - gain muscle/lose fat. Contest dieting doesn't apply to you.
Set up your diet according to the stickies and it's your call whether to fit in icecream. NOBODY IS SHOVING IT DOWN YOUR THROAT.

FFS, I swear, I am getting tired of the debates, stabs at IIFYM and almost ready to take it out of my signature though I am very grateful to Eric personally.

[adean1989]

Your diet is devoid of micro nutrients, pre/post work out shakes are unnecessary and when cutting liquid calories make satiety a nightmare. As already stated too much protein, low fat but it's acceptable.

I don't understand what your beef is with IIFYM (pun not intended), but you're incredibly misinformed. You don't need to "diet HARD", it does not take specific foods to maintain low body fat (have you not seen Cumulonimbus?), what it does take is patience, consistency, willpower and balance. If you starve yourself of the food you desire you're more likely to break down sooner or later and as you are not contest prepping, following such a rigid diet will exclude you from a number of social occasions (I'm assuming you're putting your diet before anything and everything).

I think you should sit down and re-evaluate what it is you want from your life, beyond your physique. Not many people can maintain 5-6% BF, not many women find contest prep lean attractive and being cold everywhere, finding your bum hurts when not sitting on a cushion doesn't sound like the pinnacle of my existence.

[juliacheh]

Not many people can maintain 5-6% BF, not many women find contest prep lean attractive and being cold everywhere, finding your bum hurts when not sitting on a cushion doesn't sound like the pinnacle of my existence.

You are right it totally sucks, but so worth it when I finally have a butt of my dreams.



But great post in all seriousness.

However, I must note that fitting treats on a CONTEST PREP is not doable for everybody. Sure, guys like Paul and Berto - easy. Even Layne eats pop-corn pre-contest. However, some people function better on more rigid and structured pre-contest dieting.

With that said, OP doesn't even need to be concerned with pre-contest dieting. And regular diet and treats are 100% compatible if a person is disciplined and willing to do it.

[Arethusa]

The idea of contest dieting makes me shudder, props to the people who have the mental strength to go through with it. Admire the dedication for all you who compete.

[AlwaysTryin]

The idea of contest dieting makes me shudder, props to the people who have the mental strength to go through with it. Admire the dedication for all you who compete.

It's tough, I found it got easier each year but with experience and learning from mistakes

[jessedha]

You are not at the stage yet where you have to be concerned with what pro bodybuilders do.
You are not a special snowflake, you goal is like everybody else's here - gain muscle/lose fat. Contest dieting doesn't apply to you.
Set up your diet according to the stickies and it's your call whether to fit in icecream. NOBODY IS SHOVING IT DOWN YOUR THROAT.

FFS, I swear, I am getting tired of the debates, stabs at IIFYM and almost ready to take it out of my signature though I am very grateful to Eric personally.

Hey Julia! I don't have to be concerned but let's just say I'm won't be satisfied til I'm close to this sliced: http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/Sporto4323/Gym.jpg. Granted there is no way in hell I can reach it unless I cut down from at least gaining 20 lb of weight, hopefully mostly muscle. But I'm going to be doing everything I can. I'll have ice cream if I want to, but sadly I've lost my appetite for it): I see ice cream and I never crave it anymore. I'm actually starting to crave my bro diet more now :0. If I want to make the meal more perfect, I might add more things to my shake or add some more sauces to my rice. But truth is I'm starting to enjoy it.

Your diet is devoid of micro nutrients, pre/post work out shakes are unnecessary and when cutting liquid calories make satiety a nightmare. As already stated too much protein, low fat but it's acceptable.

I don't understand what your beef is with IIFYM (pun not intended), but you're incredibly misinformed. You don't need to "diet HARD", it does not take specific foods to maintain low body fat (have you not seen Cumulonimbus?), what it does take is patience, consistency, willpower and balance. If you starve yourself of the food you desire you're more likely to break down sooner or later and as you are not contest prepping, following such a rigid diet will exclude you from a number of social occasions (I'm assuming you're putting your diet before anything and everything).

I think you should sit down and re-evaluate what it is you want from your life, beyond your physique. Not many people can maintain 5-6% BF, not many women find contest prep lean attractive and being cold everywhere, finding your bum hurts when not sitting on a cushion doesn't sound like the pinnacle of my existence.

It is. I could add some fruit to my shakes and maybe add some vegetables to my main dishes. True, but as said above, but Tommy himself can testify that there is no way he could've reached this condition with IIFYM. But the thing is for my own satisfaction, I need to reach that condition, so I have to mimic contest dieting. Actually I've been doing this no problem. I might break down and 14 g of cream cheese to mix into my chicken and rice, but that's the extent of it, possibly a separate day across from my cheat day. Alright, after hearing that, I'm sort of cringing from that image, but 7-8% bf is what I'm after. And about the beef with IIFYM, it's just my preference and my belief after seeing what it did to my physique just like Tommy said, when I kept macros and calories constant. But even then, I really have no choice, because a "bro" diet is the cheapest I can afford. Actually when I followed IIFYM, I threw any concept of the bro diet out the window. I stayed away from meat, getting protein only from whey, eggs, and other carb sources. I enjoyed thinking up and looking up fastastic shake recipes, had a bagel and cream cheese everyday, pourced soy sauce on my eggs, and even put sugar in my rice. I craved sweetness so bad. But surprisingly, I didn't feel as good energy-wise as I did on a bro diet. Also, about the fat and protein, you are right. Just means I get to either cut out more protein shakes or meat, which is why I love bulking season, and for fat, nothing is better than a nicely grilled piece of fish. But damn are they expensive.

You are right it totally sucks, but so worth it when I finally have a butt of my dreams.




But great post in all seriousness.

However, I must note that fitting treats on a CONTEST PREP is not doable for everybody. Sure, guys like Paul and Berto - easy. Even Layne eats pop-corn pre-contest. However, some people function better on more rigid and structured pre-contest dieting.

With that said, OP doesn't even need to be concerned with pre-contest dieting. And regular diet and treats are 100% compatible if a person is disciplined and willing to do it.

Every guy is always looking for the girl with the perfect ass I'm seriously not condemning IIFYM to be horrible. I just put it like this: take the greatest physiques from any natural organization and ask them if they could reach that shape and conditioning putting in 80% effort to their diet. Chances are every single one of them will say they had to do everything they could: diet and training had to be on point. That means no mistakes, leaving nothing to question. They'll do anything sans steroids to eek out more size or more definition, or get that coveted grainy-ness.

The idea of contest dieting makes me shudder, props to the people who have the mental strength to go through with it. Admire the dedication for all you who compete.

I'm not fully contest dieting. I'm not carb depleting and carb loading, doing water tricks, and all sorts. Most contest dieters who reach good condition usually get down to 5% BEFORE all those tricks are implemented. There is no way in hell I can handle carb depleting because you're on close to zero carbs...for more than a day. I'm happy with 7-8% bf, but I want to push my limits as far as my physique goes, without ruining proportion.

It's tough, I found it got easier each year but with experience and learning from mistakes

Props to you man.

[Cumulonimbus]

Bump. Reading all of this was grand.

[bballbrett5]

real talk dude why are you mentioning a bunch of stuff about "lifestyle" yet then talking about things tommy does to reach elite conditioning levels for professional natural bodybuilding? there's a big difference between looking good in daily life and being an elite competitor...if you're not trying to be the latter, i don't think it's worth fretting so much over

[sawoobley]

Wow, a mild case of mania.

The problem is OP wants to achieve his goals so bad but is going about it the wrong way. Instead of learning the general PRINCIPLES of nutrition and strength/hypertrophy programs he sets out to copy the lifestyle of those people who have physiques he admires. Sadly, I think he will be spinning his wheels for a very long time. If he ever does reach his goals I bet it will be in a psychologically and physically unhealthy manner.