HRT & Tested Feds

[dparm99]

I've been speaking to a few guys lately who are on HRT for low test levels. This got me thinking - If you were on HRT (test) and it only brought your levels up to the normal range would it show up in a drug test?
Also do you guys think it would be unethical to compete in tested feds if on HRT (assuming your test levels were only in the normal range)?

[Torrtrefireto]

Depends on the compounds/dosages you were using if you would test positive or not

I imagine some feds would allow a doctor's perscription to waive you from being tested, but the USAPL is not on of them.

If you are positive there you get suspended even with a perscription

[Liftamulti]

Some feds will probably let you have a pass. I would feel bad if I did that though. I would just compete in a non tested fed.

[NephilimRising]

As far as I know all forms of synthesized testosterone are slightly different than the test your body produces, I think they are methylated at a different position. The slight difference is what enables people to find steroids in tests, and this is also the reason tests for HGH are nearly impossible (HGH made in the lab is the same as hgh in your body).

So yes HRT would show up on a drug test, but if your fed allows HRT you're fine as long as your levels aren't really out there.

HRT in sports is a tough issue because a lot of athletes get HRT to explain away their high test levels. It happens like this

1. take deca and obliterate your test levels
2. go into doctor get a prescription for test
3. bring levels back up to normal, while you have reaped the benefits of super high levels during your training cycle


I wonder if tests can distinguish between dbol, test e, test cyp, deca etc? And if there are medical guidelines saying that only test e and test cyp can be used for HRT purposes.



What liftamulti said........I would compete in an untested fed. John Bernor gets HRT and competes untested.

[Torrtrefireto]

As far as I know all forms of synthesized testosterone are slightly different than the test your body produces, I think they are methylated at a different position. The slight difference is what enables people to find steroids in tests, and this is also the reason tests for HGH are nearly impossible (HGH made in the lab is the same as hgh in your body).

So yes HRT would show up on a drug test, but if your fed allows HRT you're fine as long as your levels aren't really out there.

I'm fairly sure that if you shot test suspension and then took a test it would just read a lot of test, not be able to tell it was synthetic or not.

I wonder if tests can distinguish between dbol, test e, test cyp, deca etc? And if there are medical guidelines saying that only test e and test cyp can be used for HRT purposes.

They can distinguish between dbol and test and all other compounds, I don't think between different esters of a given drug

[koyongi]

As far as I know all forms of synthesized testosterone are slightly different than the test your body produces, I think they are methylated at a different position. The slight difference is what enables people to find steroids in tests, and this is also the reason tests for HGH are nearly impossible (HGH made in the lab is the same as hgh in your body).

So yes HRT would show up on a drug test, but if your fed allows HRT you're fine as long as your levels aren't really out there.

HRT in sports is a tough issue because a lot of athletes get HRT to explain away their high test levels. It happens like this

1. take deca and obliterate your test levels
2. go into doctor get a prescription for test
3. bring levels back up to normal, while you have reaped the benefits of super high levels during your training cycle

I wonder if tests can distinguish between dbol, test e, test cyp, deca etc? And if there are medical guidelines saying that only test e and test cyp can be used for HRT purposes.

What liftamulti said........I would compete in an untested fed. John Bernor gets HRT and competes untested.

This is a pretty good analysis. A detailed test is often cost prohibitive, though, so you're not going to pick up the small differences in a lot of cases.

I know a couple of master's women who are on HRT and consequently compete untested. I can completely understand their reasoning in doing so, and I have no problem with it. There absolutely is a competitive advantage, though, so I would definitely advocate keeping it out of tested federations.

[Doollas]

Another question about drug tests...these are all piss tests right? How good are they compared to a typical employment drug test? What I mean is, you can theoretically be a hyoooge pothead, take creatine, and just drink a few gallons of water before a piss test and pass easily. Can't you just do the same for these tests? Does WADA give blood tests to olympic athletes and pro athletes?

[koyongi]

Another question about drug tests...these are all piss tests right? How good are they compared to a typical employment drug test? What I mean is, you can theoretically be a hyoooge pothead, take creatine, and just drink a few gallons of water before a piss test and pass easily. Can't you just do the same for these tests? Does WADA give blood tests to olympic athletes and pro athletes?

WADA does test to see if you've been taking any diuretics or to see if your sample is too dilute...

[Doollas]

WADA does test to see if you've been taking any diuretics or to see if your sample is too dilute...

Don't they test the level of creatine to determine if it is too dilute? Therefore if you take creatine you wouldn't be dilute right? This is all stuff I have heard on recreational drug forums so could be total BS. I do know that my sample for my 2nd to last drug test was VERY dilute and didn't come back too dilute (was taking creatine).

[blastbeats_stl]

definitely unethical. Assuming 2 people juice, and both want to cycle off for a tested meet: the guy who comes off a cycle and goes to a cruise dose is going to retain more muscle and strength than a guy that ran a pct and came off completely

[Gaash]

What percentage of people on HRT in competitive sports really are only going to bring their levels up to "normal", especially in sports where the benefits of higher test. levels are proven beyond any doubt. I would venture the answer is a number very close to 0%

[koyongi]

Don't they test the level of creatine to determine if it is too dilute? Therefore if you take creatine you wouldn't be dilute right? This is all stuff I have heard on recreational drug forums so could be total BS. I do know that my sample for my 2nd to last drug test was VERY dilute and didn't come back too dilute (was taking creatine).

I'm not sure offhand about the work-type tests for recreational drugs. A lot of sports drug testing (especially OMT) is just the steroid panel.

What percentage of people on HRT in competitive sports really are only going to bring their levels up to "normal", especially in sports where the benefits of higher test. levels are proven beyond any doubt. I would venture the answer is a number very close to 0%

You're also trying to assume there's a "normal" level. What's "normal" for a 15-year-old boy would be pretty abnormal for a 50-year-old man. Drug tests don't differentiate between the two as far as I know. So you could be in a "normal" range, but still be far from "normal."

[dparm99]

definitely unethical. Assuming 2 people juice, and both want to cycle off for a tested meet: the guy who comes off a cycle and goes to a cruise dose is going to retain more muscle and strength than a guy that ran a pct and came off completely

I think you're missing the point of the thread. We're talking about HRT (which you stay on constantly, you don't cycle) not running big cycle doses of test.

[cunniff81]

I think that they should be allowed to lift in tested feds.
There is a normal range of test, and I think that as long as they are in the middle to lower end that is fine. Using it to get to the very top is, giving yourself an advantage.
But other than that it's fine.

This sort of can go like, can a person who need glasses play sport is cheating. As they are enhancing his ability. Or you can't play after a cortizone shot, cause they are definatly performance enhancing. Where do we draw the line if you want to stop people getting to the normal level that everyone else has??

[1015andUP]

I think that they should be allowed to lift in tested feds.
There is a normal range of test, and I think that as long as they are in the middle to lower end that is fine. Using it to get to the very top is, giving yourself an advantage.
But other than that it's fine.

This sort of can go like, can a person who need glasses play sport is cheating. As they are enhancing his ability. Or you can't play after a cortizone shot, cause they are definatly performance enhancing. Where do we draw the line if you want to stop people getting to the normal level that everyone else has??

I would say this if not for the earlier bit about people using it to balance out levels after cycling something stronger. Using it for naturally low test I think is fine, but there isn't much of a way to distinguish between the two ("natty" low and "screwed from roids" low)

[koyongi]

I think that they should be allowed to lift in tested feds.
There is a normal range of test, and I think that as long as they are in the middle to lower end that is fine. Using it to get to the very top is, giving yourself an advantage.
But other than that it's fine.

This sort of can go like, can a person who need glasses play sport is cheating. As they are enhancing his ability. Or you can't play after a cortizone shot, cause they are definatly performance enhancing. Where do we draw the line if you want to stop people getting to the normal level that everyone else has??

I think you're missing the point I made above about "normal" test levels. (First off, there hardly is such a thing.)

Testosterone levels *naturally* drop off as you age. This is the main reason you can make easy gains in high school but not at 40. To alter your testosterone levels to allow you to train at that rate for your whole life is hardly "natural", even if it is within "normal" ranges.

[Frank.S]

Whats if someone had testicular cancer (for arguments sake, say in both), had them removed and was put on TRT. Are they forced to compete untested even if their levels are the same as an average person their age?

I don't see a problem with people who are on honest legitiment TRT competing untested as if it is actual TRT putting you in the normal range you don't have an advantage to someone with a perfect endocrine system.

I do see you point koyongi about people of an older age could have "normal" levels of a 20 year old, but maybe a reasonable compromise would be that anyone on TRT has to compete in the open class and not as a master.

[anonymous]

from the perspective of someone on HRT, yes it's unethical if you're looking at any sport in it's pure form.

And if there are medical guidelines saying that only test e and test cyp can be used for HRT purposes.

let's hope not

[isaku900]

As far as I know all forms of synthesized testosterone are slightly different than the test your body produces, I think they are methylated at a different position. The slight difference is what enables people to find steroids in tests, and this is also the reason tests for HGH are nearly impossible (HGH made in the lab is the same as hgh in your body).

the first stage drug screen for WADA is usually a T/E ratio test, that tests your ratio of testosterone to epi-testosterone. The usual "normal" is 1:1, but up to 4:1 is allowed w/o being an automatic fail. Anything above 4:1 is a fail. the reason being that exogenous testosterone raises your testosterone level but not your epitest level.

If you have over a 4:1 you're an auto fail as its too high indicating exogenous use, but if you're close they may do a more detailed screen to search for metabolites and specific compounds, but these tests are more expensive.

I wonder if tests can distinguish between dbol, test e, test cyp, deca etc? And if there are medical guidelines saying that only test e and test cyp can be used for HRT purposes.

yes they can determine what type of drug you took, not usually the ester unless its still active, but a detailed screen would tell you testosterone, methandrostenolone (dbol), nandrolone (deca), boldenone (equipoise) etc.

[Gaash]

I'm not sure offhand about the work-type tests for recreational drugs. A lot of sports drug testing (especially OMT) is just the steroid panel.



You're also trying to assume there's a "normal" level. What's "normal" for a 15-year-old boy would be pretty abnormal for a 50-year-old man. Drug tests don't differentiate between the two as far as I know. So you could be in a "normal" range, but still be far from "normal."

edit: missed post above apologies for the repeat

There's plenty of data about what is the typical range, where 95% of people of various ages fall etc. etc. Most drug test limits are actually not even on Test but on Test vs Epitestosterone levels and the thresholds are generally extremely high (something like 4:1 or even higher depending on commission etc. where most people are at 1:1) In otherwords, there's plenty of room to get well above normal without failing a test.

I'll go as far as saying that almost everyone who is hiding behind 'HRT' is using the 'HRT' to get their test above the 95%tile level for an 18 year old probably.

[nsxmatt]

Whats if someone had testicular cancer (for arguments sake, say in both), had them removed and was put on TRT. Are they forced to compete untested even if their levels are the same as an average person their age?

Yes. **** happens, if you need TRT then there is no way to know what your dose really is so you should be in a untested fed. I know lots of 50+ people who compete in tested feds and could be on TRT easy but they are not.

[blastbeats_stl]

I think you're missing the point of the thread. We're talking about HRT (which you stay on constantly, you don't cycle) not running big cycle doses of test.

but how would they know?

[Doollas]

In response to the actual question...I think it's unethical, EVEN though I know several untested feds allow it. If I were on HRT I would most likely in all honesty (although I don't know a whole lot about juice and long term effects for an older person) use exaggerated doses before a meet...wouldn't feel right if I did or did not do this competing untested.

Isaku, do you know the answers to the questions I posed earlier in this thread?

[NephilimRising]

What do you guys mean by esters? I didn't even know that steroids have esters, I thought only fats have ester linkages from the carbonyl group of glycerol to one of the fatty acid chains.

Clarify pls. I've taken an intro bio course and this stuff piques my interest.

[koyongi]

What do you guys mean by esters? I didn't even know that steroids have esters, I thought only fats have ester linkages from the carbonyl group of glycerol to one of the fatty acid chains.

Clarify pls. I've taken an intro bio course and this stuff piques my interest.

There's no ester in the structure of testosterone itself. Forming an ester is a synthetic mechanism to increase the duration of the exogenous testosterone in the body, among other things. The hydroxy group on the 5-membered ring becomes the ester linkage to whatever they're attaching to it.

[NephilimRising]

There's no ester in the structure of testosterone itself. Forming an ester is a synthetic mechanism to increase the duration of the exogenous testosterone in the body, among other things. The hydroxy group on the 5-membered ring becomes the ester linkage to whatever they're attaching to it.

Which is presumably some sort of unsaturated fat? I say unsaturated because it would be hard to inject a solid intravenously. Is that the difference between all of these different compounds cyp, deca, ethanate, etc.......that they all have different esters?

Chemistry is cool, thanks for answering.

Nerd.

Edit: not unsaturated fats exactly because the glycerol would be missing, but a long string of hydrocarbons with one cis double bond that allows it to be liquid at room temp.

[isaku900]

Which is presumably some sort of unsaturated fat? I say unsaturated because it would be hard to inject a solid intravenously. Is that the difference between all of these different compounds cyp, deca, ethanate, etc.......that they all have different esters?

Chemistry is cool, thanks for answering.

Nerd.

Cypionate, enanthate, propionate, etc are esters. Esters modify a drug's active life.

Deca is a different drug, Nandrolone undecanoate, nandrolone is the drug, undecanoate is the ester.

Isaku, do you know the answers to the questions I posed earlier in this thread?

Taking creatine and drinking water will not pass a drug test for AAS.

[Frank.S]

Yes. **** happens, if you need TRT then there is no way to know what your dose really is so you should be in a untested fed. I know lots of 50+ people who compete in tested feds and could be on TRT easy but they are not.

The dose is really irrelevant as people will respond differently. What is important would be your test levels, which can be found in a test.

There is absolutely zero advantage to a lifter with 800ng/dl that got there by taking 100mg of test/week or a lifter with 800ng/dl that is using their natural production.

It would be a royal pain in the ass, but a lifter could be on TRT using straight testosterone (suspension) and keep their levels in the natural range and would never fail a test.

Keep in mind that men are healthier with normal range test levels then either end of the extreme. So if those 50 year old men you know actually medically need TRT and are avoiding it to compete, they are sacrificing their health.

[Frank.S]

In response to the actual question...I think it's unethical, EVEN though I know several untested feds allow it. If I were on HRT I would most likely in all honesty (although I don't know a whole lot about juice and long term effects for an older person) use exaggerated doses before a meet...wouldn't feel right if I did or did not do this competing untested.

Isaku, do you know the answers to the questions I posed earlier in this thread?

If the meet only had drug testing at the actual meet (no out of meet testing), AND the testing actually tested for testosterone levels.. Yes, a lifter could take higher doses before the meet and get away with it.

With that exact same scenario a "drug free" lifter could take test suspension during that same timeframe, stop 2 days out and pass the test.

So, both lifters could cheat. If you are implying that a lifter would be more likely to cheat while on a medically supervised program which only a certain amount of drugs can be purchased at a time, vs a lifter who just buys drugs underground, i think its a pretty thin argument.

[Frank.S]

from the perspective of someone on HRT, yes it's unethical if you're looking at any sport in it's pure form.

Ill give you that, but this "pure" sport would also have to ban:

- People using any fake limbs (those are not natural, while doing a shirted bench press they dont even have to worry about their arm snapping. What if someone cheats and created a limb that surpasses humans)

- Eye Glasses. I have a hell of a time looking down and finding the correct part of the bar to grab when deadlifting. With glasses I can get my hands in much better placement.

- People who have had hernias. Did you know when they put the mesh netting in after having a hernia that area of your body is actually stronger and LESS likely to ever have a hernia again. These guys can strain all day long and not worry about a thing!


Now, obviously im joking. But if someone has a medical problem and fixes it in a way which does not cause an advantage, there is no reason that person shouldn't be able to compete.

Now to those people abusing TRT and just using it as a light cycle, its ruining it for the people who legitimately need it and would use in in a method (which could be tested for) that would not cause an advantage.