Jonathan Dudley is the author of Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics.
By Jonathan Dudley, Special to CNN
Growing up in the evangelical community, I learned the Bible’s stance on homosexuality is clear-cut. God condemns it, I was taught, and those who disagree just haven’t read their Bibles closely enough.
Having recently graduated from Yale Divinity School, I can say that my childhood community’s approach to gay rights—though well intentioned—is riddled with self-serving double standards.
I don’t doubt that the one New Testament author who wrote on the subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin. In Romans 1, the only passage in the Bible where a reason is explicitly given for opposing same-sex relations, the Apostle Paul calls them “unnatural.”
Problem is, Paul’s only other moral argument from nature is the following: “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?” (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).
Few Christians would answer that question with a “yes.”
In short, Paul objects to two things as unnatural: one is male-male sex and the other is long hair on men and short hair on women. The community opposed to gay marriage takes one condemnation as timeless and universal and the other as culturally relative.
I also don’t doubt that those who advocate gay marriage are advocating a revision of the Christian tradition.
But the community opposed to gay marriage has itself revised the Christian tradition in a host of ways. For the first 1500 years of Christianity, for example, marriage was deemed morally inferior to celibacy. When a theologian named Jovinian challenged that hierarchy in 390 A.D. — merely by suggesting that marriage and celibacy might be equally worthwhile endeavors — he was deemed a heretic and excommunicated from the church.
How does that sit with “family values” activism today?
Yale New Testament professor Dale B. Martin has noted that today’s "pro-family" activism, despite its pretense to be representing traditional Christian values, would have been considered “heresy” for most of the church’s history.
The community opposed to gay marriage has also departed from the Christian tradition on another issue at the heart of its social agenda: abortion.
Unbeknownst to most lay Christians, the vast majority of Christian theologians and saints throughout history have not believed life begins at conception.
Although he admitted some uncertainty on the matter, the hugely influential 4th and 5th century Christian thinker Saint Augustine wrote, “it could not be said that there was a living soul in [a] body” if it is “not yet endowed with senses.”
Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic saint and a giant of mediaeval theology, argued: “before the body has organs in any way whatever, it cannot be receptive of the soul.”
American evangelicals, meanwhile, widely opposed the idea that life begins at conception until the 1970s, with some even advocating looser abortion laws based on their reading of the Bible before then.
It won’t do to oppose gay marriage because it’s not traditional while advocating other positions that are not traditional.
And then there’s the topic of divorce. Although there is only one uncontested reference to same-sex relations in the New Testament, divorce is condemned throughout, both by Jesus and Paul. To quote Jesus from the Gospel of Mark: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.”
A possible exception is made only for unfaithfulness.
The community most opposed to gay marriage usually reads these condemnations very leniently. A 2007 issue of Christianity Today, for example, featured a story on its cover about divorce that concluded that Christians should permit divorce for “adultery,” “emotional and physical neglect” and “abandonment and abuse.”
The author emphasizes how impractical it would be to apply a strict interpretation of Jesus on this matter: “It is difficult to believe the Bible can be as impractical as this interpretation implies.”
Indeed it is.
On the other hand, it’s not at all difficult for a community of Christian leaders, who are almost exclusively white, heterosexual men, to advocate interpretations that can be very impractical for a historically oppressed minority to which they do not belong – homosexuals.
Whether the topic is hair length, celibacy, when life begins, or divorce, time and again, the leaders most opposed to gay marriage have demonstrated an incredible willingness to consider nuances and complicating considerations when their own interests are at stake.
Since graduating from seminary, I no longer identify with the evangelical community of my youth. The community gave me many fond memories and sound values but it also taught me to take the very human perspectives of its leaders and attribute them to God.
So let’s stop the charade and be honest.
Opponents of gay marriage aren’t defending the Bible’s values. They’re using the Bible to defend their own.
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06-28-2011, 02:55 PM #1
Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?
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06-28-2011, 02:59 PM #2
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bible is irrelevant
like the last line says, it's used for stupid humans to fight pointless battles against each other. Just another weakness of an inferior speciesEveryone betrays everyone
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06-28-2011, 04:28 PM #3
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06-28-2011, 06:03 PM #4
stop being so damn loud then. Homosexuality is everywhere and being promoted more and more. It has the media locked
My only real problem with homosexuality is when you try to make it seem ok by the bible. It isn't, plain and simple. All the bible has ever said was against homosexuality, even calling it a sign of the end times when it becomes huge popular and defended. There is nothing said about it that is positive in the bible. Cities were destroyed because of it.Last edited by semitope; 06-28-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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06-28-2011, 06:07 PM #5
Article states self-evident facts. Homosexuality is given ridiculous prominence as an alleged sin given it's status in the bible. People who claim religion provides unchanging moral instructions are FOS given the way 'God given' morality is in a continual state of flux.
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
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06-28-2011, 06:32 PM #6
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06-28-2011, 06:39 PM #7
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06-28-2011, 06:41 PM #8
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I would suggest you try an experiment. Should take abt. 10 mins at most. Go back and read the passage about where those cities were destroyed and you might notice something profound. No sex ever happens. In fact, short of one spoken word, no one in thousands of years would have associated them with homosexuality. I do not suggest this to change your mind, rather to understand a bit more what is in that book versus what tradition says is written that is not really there.
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06-28-2011, 06:52 PM #9
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06-28-2011, 06:59 PM #10
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06-28-2011, 07:03 PM #11
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06-28-2011, 07:33 PM #12
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06-28-2011, 07:42 PM #13
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Leviticus 19:28 "Do not cut your bodies for the dead, and do not mark your skin with tattoos. I am the Lord."
So much of what is said in the bible is irrelevant to today. Follow the general messages in it, and you'll go far. Follow it word for word, and you'll spend your life persecuting everyone. Love thy Neighbor, don't judge him/her for their actions, just love him/her
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06-28-2011, 08:38 PM #14
You must have some serious hair on the side of your head, then. Because cutting it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. Just like homosexuality is an abomination. And eating shrimp. And eating four-legged insects. And eating things on the third day. And women wearing pants. And men wearing, say, earrings. But rest assured, if you have a guest and they displease you, this is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord also, and you may cut up his concubine and spread her body to the corners of the land.
Christianity is serious business lolignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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06-28-2011, 08:57 PM #15
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06-28-2011, 09:00 PM #16
Oh, yes, the Bible says that there are four-legged insects. One might be quick to claim that this is an idiom, and they would be right, insofar as they reference the verse that says that insects 'go on all fours'; yet another verse states that there are four-legged insects, however.
And these people think I'm evil because I look at their little book and go 'WTF'.ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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06-28-2011, 09:10 PM #17
this? I would at least think that sexual immorality and indiscretion (gender) were part of their sins
"Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. And he said, 'Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.' And they said, 'No, but we will spend the night in the open square.' But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
"Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally (have sex with them).'
"So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.' And they said, 'Stand back!' Then they said, 'This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.' So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.
"But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door." (Genesis 19:1-11)
weak statement against 4 legged insects. Even if ppl made up the bible that would likely not be falsified. Check the link.Last edited by semitope; 06-28-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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06-28-2011, 09:21 PM #18
Yeah, this:
The two angels that visit Lot wash their feet, eat, and are sexually irresistible to Sodomites. 19:1-5
God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. This was because, so say the Christian Right, some homosexuals lived there. 19:4-5, 24-25
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:8
Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. 19:30-38
But of course, what I find interesting is that the townspeople aren't killed for being gay, they're killed for trying to have sex with the angels. Apparently things were going fine until those two douchebags showed up. Apparently, angels have to initiate the intercourse:
"The angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her."
Husbands are never around when angels come unto women and make them pregnant. Judges 13:9
But that's all irrelevant; would you mind posting some pictures of your epic side facial hair, that we might know that ye are not an abomination in the eyes of the Lord?ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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06-28-2011, 09:28 PM #19
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Yes, I mean exactly that. However, read it in the Hebrew without the Christianized interpolations written in the text you quote. It is important to read the direct translation from the actual language to understand the meaning, without translator bias.
You will find, one word -- direct translation "may have" -- , and nothing at all where anything sexual actually happened.
http://study.interlinearbible.org/genesis/19.htm
Unless, of course, you know of other cities destroyed that I do not concerning this."You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They'll race behind you. They will stumble; they will fall. But, in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." Jor-El
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Kris Gethin's Body By Design, pg. 43/44 (Yes, that s me)
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06-28-2011, 09:30 PM #20
It's a copout. It's the 'they didn't know better but they're technically right' argument. But even if you can make this stretch work, it doesn't change the fact that they think eating insects (something that has no apparent reason for not being done) is on par with homosexuality. So, if you're in a survival situation, and you eat a cricket, you're going to Hell. Pretty awesome Lord you have there lol
ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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06-28-2011, 09:32 PM #21
Uh-oh; anybody who buys these pants is going to Hell!
http://www.amazon.com/Washable-Wool-.../dp/B004OI40B4ignore list: MuscleXtreme
”The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you’re a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great reference point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black.”
–Henry Rollins
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06-28-2011, 09:38 PM #22
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BINGO. You hit the nail on the head without even realizing it. That word you use "THINK." Those sins you list are suppositions on your part. If the text supports their destruction based on sexual immorality, then why was a man who offered up his virgin daughters to the same mob, spared? That makes no sense.
You have supposed what the "sin" was; you "think" it based on what you have been taught and your own biases based on Paul. The text itself here does not describe the "sins" at all, save the sin of Lot who was spared. The sin of Sodom is explained elsewhere in the Old Testament. But, since the sin listed is not homosexuality, most Christians reject the verse."You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They'll race behind you. They will stumble; they will fall. But, in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." Jor-El
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Kris Gethin's Body By Design, pg. 43/44 (Yes, that s me)
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06-28-2011, 09:39 PM #23
The angels were a test and they failed. They were gay, otherwise the whole town wouldn't have come for 2 men. Obvious sexual indiscrimination. Angels being attractive would be obvious, but do you naturally feel attracted to attractive members of the same sex? No.
Genesis 19
26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Lot and His Daughters
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [g] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi [h] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.
Source(s):
The Bible, Old Testament, Genesis 19 and Job (all)
9 And God listened to the voice of Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman as she sat in the field. But Manoah her husband was not with her. 10 So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, “Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me.” 11 And Manoah arose and went after his wife and came to the man and said to him, “Are you the man who spoke to this woman?” And he said, “I am.” 12 And Manoah said, “Now when your words come true, what is to be the child's manner of life, and what is his mission?” 13 And the angel of the Lord said to Manoah, “Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing. All that I commanded her let her observe.”
Think about it for a second. Messengers from YOUR GOD (imagine you had one) come to you and others try to harm them. What would you NOT DO? You could even consider the fact that they rejected the women as telling (men are usually the leaders of mobs and calling for the male angels/rejecting the women when they had sexual desires is telling). I haven't just supposed anything. Its the logical deduction from the verse. Anything I say or do is something I THOUGHT because it all comes from my brain. I THINK that is something the verse says and I THINK that many birds can fly. I also THINK that i would die if i fell off the statue of liberty.
Maybe i am biased against homosexuality, but I take no actions against whatever they want to do. I usually stay quiet till someone tries to say its right by religion.
sin was sin. I don't think I am less of a sinner than an homosexual. Maybe, maybe not. OT NT... some things changed. (NT is negative towards homosexuality as well)Last edited by semitope; 06-28-2011 at 10:08 PM.
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06-28-2011, 10:03 PM #24
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You do not have to get defensive with me. I am just pointing out a few of the flaws in the traditional Christian narrative that is used to brow-beat homosexuals.
1)It is a flaw that no sex happens in the story, but violation of semetic customs concerning care for guests do happen.
2) It is a flaw that it is assumed that Gommorah is destroyed for homosexuality when the city is not even mentioned in the story of Lot. They have been smeared for thousands of years for something that did not even happen there.
3) It is a flaw that not a few months earlier Abraham and Melchizedek, two perfectly righteous men according to the Bible, ally themselves with the city of Sodom and its king. (Why would righteous men ally with homosexuals?)
4) It is a flaw to assume that the angels were a test, when God told Abraham he was going to destroy the cities before the angels ever got there. But, Abraham pled with him not to do so.
5) It is a flaw that the OT says the sin of Sodom was not caring for its poor, not homosexuality.
You can feel perfectly comfortable in your suppositions and conclusions. That is certainly your right and I am not trying to dissuade you from it. But, the story does not say what you say it does (drawing conclusions, inferences, etc based on your bias) is also a flaw. But, they are your flaws to embrace, if you choose.
Religion can teach any doctrine it so chooses. That is one reason why there are thousands of them. Your religion says homosexuality is evil. Not all do, and to claim that is wrong."You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They'll race behind you. They will stumble; they will fall. But, in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." Jor-El
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Kris Gethin's Body By Design, pg. 43/44 (Yes, that s me)
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06-28-2011, 10:10 PM #25
Is this true?
"There is no question that venereal disease is extremely prevalent among homosexually active males. The prevalence among homosexually active females is not quite so high, but it is still higher than among men and women whose activity is exclusively heterosexual."
April 15, 1975, issue of "Modern Medicine"
"The list of ailments occurring stretches far beyond the usual venereal diseases, such as gonorrhea and syphilis. Among frequent conditions, doctors find that, in the genital organs, there may be inflammation of the prostate gland; inflammation and constriction of the urethra; swelling and ulceration of the lymphatic tissues; ulceration and formation of granulation in the groin, spreading to the buttocks and genitals; in the anal region there may develop a weakening of the anal muscles with resultant loss of sphincter control; enlargement of hemorrhoids; perforation and laceration of the colon; amebic dysentery; and cancerous tumors." W75 6/15 Insight on the News
HopingInJehovah
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06-28-2011, 10:19 PM #26
I think the last line was saying how anti-gay marriage folks are proof-texting.
This is a great article that hits the nail on the head. These Christians are using select Bible quotes without critical examination of their context and true meaning. If most of the anti-gay Bible passages form Mosaic Law, then why are you being selective? The Jews believed that all of the Laws were of equal importance. Breaking either of them was a break in the Divine Law that God had set forth for them.
Besides, a lot of the anti-gay acts stuff in the Bible was motivated by the fact that many of the gods in the ancient world were worshipped with homosexual acts. By rejecting these, the Jews found a way to deferentiate themselves from the other peoples in the region.
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06-28-2011, 10:22 PM #27
on point 3. If you accept that they had other sins why would homosexuality be any different? like i said, a sin is a sin so why are you singling out homosexuality? Not to mention this verse
21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”
22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’
On your first point - the bible is not an erotic novel. Why would it talk about sex actually happening? The communication of what they wanted to do is enough.
My bad on including Gomorrah
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06-28-2011, 10:36 PM #28
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06-28-2011, 10:46 PM #29
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06-28-2011, 11:24 PM #30
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Because if they aren't procreating there won't be any new members to their "Religion/Church"
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