IFBB Pro's doing there hearts a favor with high test levels.

[Groggery]

Asbrus , it's the zero's , caps lock and being stubborn as a mule that kept you red for so long. It's what will get you red again if you don't back the hell off.

In every thread you're the only guy that starts raging hard when his opinion isn't praised.

[asbrus]

asbrus , it's the zero's , caps lock and being stubborn as a mule that kept you red for so long. It's what will get you red again if you don't back the hell off.

In every thread you're the only guy that starts raging hard when his opinion isn't praised.

l0l. I resp0nded with an actual study. I'm n0t stating my 0wn 0pini0n.

[Groggery]

It's your opinion that the quoted study is true. We can quote studies all day long you know , it's first hand experience that should matter when these studies have nothing to do with bodybuilders.

Edit: also it's 5 am , don't you people sleep over there.

[KarateChris]

I had pretty low free test levels when I got my levels checked last, but my doc just brushed me off and said 'free test levels vary greatly throughout the day'. Well, that's fantastic, doc, then how do you ever determine if you have low test or not? Get it tested twice in a single day?

Testosterone levels, just like most hormone levels, vary throughout the day, which makes it hard to diagnose certain hormonal deficiencies. We will usually test hormone levels when they are said to be at their highest during the day. That way if we get a level that's considered low during a time of the day when it should be at its highest, we can more safely say that you have a deficiency of said hormone.

[asbrus]

it's your opinion that the quoted study is true. We can quote studies all day long you know , it's first hand experience that should matter when these studies have nothing to do with bodybuilders.

Edit: Also it's 5 am , don't you people sleep over there.

N0 THEY D0N'T FALSIFY STUDIES 0N PUMBED. AND umm n0t every0ne lives in y0ur area. As a matter 0f fact, why aren't y0u sleeping?

[goggled101]

Why doesnt the gov just let me do what I wanna do... not hurting anyone even if it is dangerous

[spamy]

Make sex/fap whenever you feel the desire, it's healthy, natural and releases a cock()tail of chemicals . Plus after that you can think more clear given that state of relaxation. Unless you're preparing for a competition where you need more aggresion and full determination I don't see a reason to get trough a period of abstinence.

[gomez26]

well if 0ne d0sen't have a g/f 0r have steady sex, i pr0p0se 0nly masturbating 0nce a week. In my experience, the less i ejaculate the m0re energy and strength i have. After 1-2 ejaculati0ns a day, i feel much m0re drained than if i had n0t d0ne it. This is the experience 0f many 0thers i talked t0.

thats fair enough that may be optimal for you but not necessarily for others. i would say that if someone has to struggle to reduce their rate, then its unnecessary & counterproductive, while if someone naturally gravitates to & easily maintains the lower rate (ie fells better with it) then its fine.

[AphtaLyfe]

The dangers of responsible Gear use by IFBB pro's is way overstated............"Got to love when Science shoots down Broscience"!!!!!

TRT brings the body back to normal physiologic levels. IFBB pro's use supra-physiologic levels of testosterone.

At the levels used by IFBB pros, there is a proven decrease in HDL (good cholesterol), increase in LDL (bad cholesterol) and concentric ventricular hypertrophy (shrinking of a type of heart chamber). Death by sudden cardiac arrest in bodybuilders is often times attributed to the concentric ventricular hypertrophy.

Even if the concentric ventricular hypertrophy is not the cause of death, many studies have shown that irregular depolarization and repolarizations are occurring in anabolic steroid (ab)users. This can trigger fatal arrhythmias. (deadly irregular heart beats)

Furthermore, even if none of that ends up killing the person. Having a low HDL and high LDL can result in artheroschlerotic plaque buildup in the coronary (heart) vessels and other vessels resulting in myocardial infarction (heart attack) and hypertension. (high blood pressure)

[thebankcard]

And then what happens after this one week? Use it or lose it.

this exactly. brb, gaining 20lbs in one week from abstaining. my strawmen are much better



ok then what exactly do you propose, how to implement this into a routine. what sort of on/off periods should be done?

i still say in the long run it will all even out. short term transient responses are good for marketing & always turn out to be fool's gold.

Well lol i dunno about the 20lbs gain but I do know as everyone else does if you wait even just 3 days and blow a load it feels so much better and it's 10x the amount so what you do with it? well let loose on some lady lol!

[eymen23]

Even if that article was true I'd rather not have the ****ty increase of 45% in test and keep me and my girl happy. I'm pretty sure I've read around that sexual arousal increases testosterone levels but not by any significant amount.

All I know is injecting yourself with exogenous testosterone in doses FAR above what is considered 'normal' isn't healthy. I agree that low testosterone levels are bad for your heart so TRT is likely to be good in the sense it removes this problem but it doesn't mean super high doses are good. In the same way pain killers are good at removing pain but that doesn't mean I should take 10x the recommended dose.

[KarateChris]

TRT brings the body back to normal physiologic levels. IFBB pro's use supra-physiologic levels of testosterone.

At the levels used by IFBB pros, there is a proven decrease in HDL (good cholesterol), increase in LDL (bad cholesterol) and concentric ventricular hypertrophy (shrinking of a type of heart chamber). Death by sudden cardiac arrest in bodybuilders is often times attributed to the concentric ventricular hypertrophy.

Even if the concentric ventricular hypertrophy is not the cause of death, many studies have shown that irregular depolarization and repolarizations are occurring in anabolic steroid (ab)users. This can trigger fatal arrhythmias. (deadly irregular heart beats)

Furthermore, even if none of that ends up killing the person. Having a low HDL and high LDL can result in artheroschlerotic plaque buildup in the coronary (heart) vessels and other vessels resulting in myocardial infarction (heart attack) and hypertension. (high blood pressure)

Okay so, HOCM is usually associated with a genetic predisposition. Usually when you hear of an athlete dropping dead while playing their sport, HOCM has to jump to your DDx. It's usually not a product of steroid use, but of a genetic predispostion to develop a hypertrophied left ventricle/septum. Now, whether AAS use can cause hypertrophy of the heart I'm unsure about. HGH has been associated with enlarged organs including hypertrophied hearts.

Also, I have never heard that AAS is associated with irregular depols and repols of the heart. Could you show me where you read this? Thanks.

[anonymous]

I am not one of the oldest guys on the forums im 36 and my body was producing almost zero test for most of my life so i got on 200 mg of test a week thru my doctor and im now at 600 total test and have never felt better. Some of the guys in that research paper were on 500 mg a week with zero health effects to the heart......

at the risk of stating the obvious not many IFBB pros take just 200-500mg test a week. TRT can be very heart unhealthy if you don't manage aromatization and E levels.


How about a study to prove the safety of eating 100's of grams of carbs in one sitting and chasing them with massive doses of slin, gh, tren and t3?

[Joshua91]

test and nearly every other drug in the world if used properly, in moderation and at the correct time of someones lifes can be beneficial

its the abuse and lack of knowledge.

sadly, humans abuse everything because we know everything...right?

at least i do anyways

[BEhave]

brb trading my testicles for my heart

sounds like marriage.

lol repped

[AphtaLyfe]

Okay so, HOCM is usually associated with a genetic predisposition. Usually when you hear of an athlete dropping dead while playing their sport, HOCM has to jump to your DDx. It's usually not a product of steroid use, but of a genetic predispostion to develop a hypertrophied left ventricle/septum. Now, whether AAS use can cause hypertrophy of the heart I'm unsure about. HGH has been associated with enlarged organs including hypertrophied hearts.

Also, I have never heard that AAS is associated with irregular depols and repols of the heart. Could you show me where you read this? Thanks.

HOCM is the #1 cause of sudden unexpected death in young athletes, that you are correct about. (Along with Brugada Syndrome) However, I was speaking about steroid using athletes.

Of the case studies I read, about sudden death of anabolic steroid using athletes, they excluded the ones with HOCM.

Here are some studies supporting my statements, with an emphasis on the cardiac electrophysiology I mentioned:


---
Evidence of altered cardiac electrophysiology following prolonged androgenic anabolic steroid use.
Sculthorpe N, Grace F, Jones P, Davies B.
Source
Institute for Sport and Physical Activity Research, Department of Sport and Exercise Science, University of Bedfordshire, Polhill Avenue, Bedford MK41 9EA, UK. nick.sculthorpe@beds.ac.uk
Abstract
The non-therapeutic use of androgenic anabolic steroids (AAS) is associated with sudden cardiac death. Despite this, there is no proposed mechanism by which this may occur. Signal-averaged ECG (SAECG) allows the assessment of cardiac electrical stability, reductions of which are a known risk factor for cardiac arrhythmias. The aim of the present study was to examine cardiac electrical stability using SAECG in a group (n = 15) of long-term AAS users (AAS use 21.3 ± 3.1 years) compared with a group (n = 15) of age-matched weight lifters (WL) and age-matched sedentary controls [C (n = 15)]. AS, WL and C underwent SAECG analysis at rest and following an acute bout of exercise to volitional exhaustion. SAECGs were analyzed using a 40 Hz filter and were averaged over 200 beats. Results indicate a non-significant trend for increased incidence of abnormal SAECG measures at rest in AS (P = 0.55). However, AS demonstrated a significantly higher incidence of abnormalities of SAECG following exercise than C or WL (P < 0.05). In conclusion, the higher incidence of abnormal SAECG measurements immediately post-exercise in the AAS group places them at a greater risk of sudden death. The present study provides a strong contraindication to the use of AAS.


---
Abnormal cardiac repolarization in anabolic androgenic steroid users carrying out submaximal exercise testing.
Maior AS, Menezes P, Pedrosa RC, Carvalho DP, Soares PP, Nascimento JH.
Source
Cardiac Electrophysiology Laboratory, Carlos Chagas Filho Biophysics Institute, Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Abstract
1. The aim of the present study was to investigate the cardiovascular effects of anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse by comparing the electrocardiographic parameters before and after submaximal exercise between AAS users and non-AAS users. 2. A total of 22 men who regularly engaged in both resistance and aerobic exercise at fitness academies volunteered for the study (control group: n = 11, age 25 ± 4 years; AAS group: n = 11, age 27 ± 5 years). All subjects were submitted to submaximal exercise testing using an Astrand-Rhyming protocol. Heart rate and electrocardiography parameters were measured at rest and at the third minute of the post-exercise recovery time. 3. AAS users presented higher QTc and QTd at rest (10% and 55%, respectively) and at the post-exercise period (17% and 43%, respectively), compared with control subjects. The maximal and minimum QTc interval of the AAS group was significantly prolonged at the post-exercise period (12% and 15%, respectively). The haemodynamic parameters were similar in both groups (P > 0.05). The AAS group showed a lower heart rate recovery at the first minute after the test (P = 0.0001), and a higher exertion score (P < 0.0001) at a lower workload, compared with the control group. 4. Our results show that the QTc interval and dispersion are increased in individuals who abuse AAS, suggesting the presence of ventricular repolarization abnormalities that could potentially increase the risk of cardiac arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death.


---
Anabolic Steroid Associated To Physical Training Induces Deleterious Cardiac Effects.
do Carmo EC, Fernandes T, Koike D, da Silva ND Junior, Mattos KC, Rosa KT, Barretti D, Soares Melo SF, Wichi RB, Irigoyen MC, de Oliveira EM.
Source
1School of Physical Education and Sport, University of São Paulo, São Paulo, SP, Brazil; 2Human Movement Laboratory, Sao Judas Tadeu University - São Paulo, SP, Brazil 3Hypertension Unit, Heart Institute, Medical School, University of São Paulo, São Paulo, SP, Brazil.
Abstract
PURPOSE:
Cardiac aldosterone might be involved in Nandrolone Decanoate (ND) deleterious effects on the heart. Therefore, we investigated the involvement of cardiac aldosterone, by the pharmacological block of AT1 or mineralocorticoid receptors, on cardiac hypertrophy and fibrosis.

METHODS:
Male Wistar rats were randomized into 8 groups (n=14/group): Control (C), Nandrolone Deconoate (ND), Trained (T), Trained ND (TND), ND+Losartan (ND +L), Trained ND +Losartan (TND +L), ND+Spironolactone (ND+S) and Trained ND+Spironolactone (TND+S). ND (10 mg/kg/week), was administered during 10 weeks of swimming training (5 times/wk). Losartan (20mg/kg/day) and Spironolactone (10mg/kg/day) were administered in drinking water.

RESULTS:
Cardiac hypertrophy was increased 10% by using ND and 17% by ND plus training (p<0.05).In both groups, there was an increase in the collagen volumetric fraction (CVF) and cardiac collagen type III expression (p<0.05). The ND treatment increased: LV-ACE activity, AT1 receptor expression, aldosterone synthase (CYP11B2) and 11-β hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 2 (11βHSD2) gene expression and inflammatory markers, TGFβ and osteopontin. Both Losartan and Spironolactone inhibited the increase of CVF and collagen type III. In addition, both treatments inhibited the increase in LV-ACE activity, CYP11B2, 11βHSD2, TGFβ and osteopontin induce by the ND treatment.

CONCLUSION:
We believe this is the first study showing the effects of ND on cardiac aldosterone. Our results suggest that these effects may be associated to TGFβ and osteopontin. Thus, we conclude that the cardiac aldosterone has an important role on the deleterious effects on the heart induced by ND.


---
These are just a few I found on the first page of pubmed when I typed in "Anabolic steroids heart." There are a bunch more on animal models as well.

[asbrus]

Having said all this and the risk 0f ster0id abuse. Taking advil,tylen0l,asprin, etc. And all th0se 0ther t0xic pharma drugs are 1000x times w0rse than abusing any ster0id. Tylen0l is the number 0ne cause 0f liver failure in america and is pure t0xic t0 the b0dy. S0 if anything, the average american is 0n d0ses 0f pharma drugs and pr0bably w0rse 0ff in health than any pr0 bber.

[terrafunka]

Having said all this and the risk 0f ster0id abuse. Taking advil,tylen0l,asprin, etc. And all th0se 0ther t0xic pharma drugs are 1000x times w0rse than abusing any ster0id. Tylen0l is the number 0ne cause 0f liver failure in america and is pure t0xic t0 the b0dy. S0 if anything, the average american is 0n d0ses 0f pharma drugs and pr0bably w0rse 0ff in health than any pr0 bber.

lol?

advil =/= trenbolone acetate

[tryin2gethuge10]

lol?

advil =/= trenbolone acetate

What is so funny about that? I don't disagree with him.

[asbrus]

lol?

Advil =/= trenbolone acetate

i never said it did. I said it's w0rse.

[Boba_Bulk]

lol?

advil =/= trenbolone acetate

What is so funny about that? I don't disagree with him.

Yeah assrubs is right this time. Tylenol is one of the biggest components for liver toxicity. Especially if it's being combined with other meds otc, or prescribed, and especially alcohol.

With advil and other NSAIDS, however they are safer than steroids and other drugs when used as prescribed. Generally those are best for acute conditions when you need immediate short term pain and inflammatory relief, usually the prescribed dosages are for less than a week. Most problems with the NSAIDS occur when people uses them chronically for months or even years out and at doses a lot higher than prescribed.

[KarateChris]

HOCM is the #1 cause of sudden unexpected death in young athletes, that you are correct about. (Along with Brugada Syndrome) However, I was speaking about steroid using athletes.

Of the case studies I read, about sudden death of anabolic steroid using athletes, they excluded the ones with HOCM.

Here are some studies supporting my statements, with an emphasis on the cardiac electrophysiology I mentioned:



These are just a few I found on the first page of pubmed when I typed in "Anabolic steroids heart." There are a bunch more on animal models as well.

Thanks for the studies dude. Noticed you're an MS3. Enjoy the hell out of fourth year; it'll be the best year of your life

[perpendicularis]

nd all th0se 0ther t0xic pharma drugs are 1000x times w0rse than abusing any ster0id. Tylen0l is the number 0ne cause 0f liver failure in america and is pure t0xic t0 the b0dy. S0 if anything, the average american is 0n d0ses 0f pharma drugs and pr0bably w0rse 0ff in health than any pr0 bber.

There are more number of health problems from common pharma drugs than AAS for the simple fact that more number of people abuse them.

Its like concluding heroin must be safer than tobacco coz more people die from the latter.

[seanb1979]

Not fapping for 7 days also raise test levels by 46.7% so i guess it's good for the heart as well.

massaging the prostate regularly increases test by 34%

[Brofessional]

massaging the prostate regularly increases test by 34%

Definitely a worthy bump.

Brb massaging

[SwolenONE]

Definitely a worthy bump.

Brb massaging

x2, bump worthy for sure.

[valiantmiller16]

I am not one of the oldest guys on the forums im 36 and my body was producing almost zero test for most of my life so i got on 200 mg of test a week thru my doctor and im now at 600 total test and have never felt better. Some of the guys in that research paper were on 500 mg a week with zero health effects to the heart......

impossible, i'm guessing you mean 200mg of cyp? no way your total ng would be 600 thats very average and 200mg is the highest TRT dose that can medically be prescribed. i take 250 per week of sust and my levels are over 1200ng i find it hard to beleive that with 50mg less your getting half the test i am. your levels shoudl be close to 1000 on that much test.

[OtisBDriftwood]

Asbrus is back! F*ck yeah!

[chad643]

lol can someone post some cliff's??