protein before bed beneficial to growth? or "bro science"?

[muladesigns]

I was debating with someone about eating a higher protein meal versus a higher carb meal before bed.
I suggested it to be a benefit. i thought this based on the fact that if I eat a higher carb meal at the end of the day instead of the higher protein, I felt much hungrier when I woke up. my stomach usually rumbles as well.
but i never get this when I eat protein.
I also thought that since your muscles need protein to grow, and we try and eat mostly protein meals every few hours, this would give a last source to last the 8 hrs of going without food.

Ive read a few articles that seem to say it "may help" but have not found any scientific studies on the subject.

[ironwill2008]

What's most important is getting your daily requirement in by the end of the day. Exactly when you eat is of secondary importance.

It's not unusual for a high protein meal to provide more satiety; tissue protein digests relatively slowly.

As long as you take in all your macro requirements by day's end, you'll still have enough amino acids circulating in your bloodstream to avoid catabolism overnight.

[muladesigns]

What's most important is getting your daily requirement in by the end of the day. Exactly when you eat is of secondary importance.

It's not unusual for a high protein meal to provide more satiety; tissue protein digests relatively slowly.

As long as you take in all your macro requirements by day's end, you'll still have enough amino acids circulating in your bloodstream to avoid catabolism overnight.

So, going those 8 hrs or so does not have a negative effect on the muscles growth at all? I thought that if you were to go that long without protein you would be having a negative effect on growth.

couldn't we then have only 3 meals a day instead of 5, and still get the same benefits?

[ironwill2008]

So, going those 8 hrs or so does not have a negative effect on the muscles growth at all? I thought that if you were to go that long without protein you would be having a negative effect on growth.

The 'catabolism' factor has been highly overplayed by the supplement companies and their primary agents--the muscle magazines (who have a vested interest in seeing their advertisers rake in boatloads of cash from supplement sales. If a trainee is convinced he needs to eat every couple of hours before his muscles waste away to nothing, he's going to do whatever is easiest to meet that demand--buy powders and protein bars to replace cooking/packing/carrying all that food.

This, from Alan Aragon:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=18

"A full-sized meal can keep blood nutrient levels elevated for 6 hours pretty easily. The beginnings of body protein losses occur after roughly 20-24 hrs of eating zippo. Thus, if you're saying that skipping dinner is generally not conducive to the goal of gaining muscle at a maximal rate, then fine. However, if you don't skip dinner, then the difference between this type of protein or that is much ado about nothing."
-Alan Aragon

couldn't we then have only 3 meals a day instead of 5, and still get the same benefits?

Absolutely. There are many guys on this site who are making great progress and are eating only one or two big meals per day. It's a myth that you'll "go catabolic" if you don't eat every three hours.

If you need to eat such a large quantity of food that you must break it down into 5-6-7-whatever smaller meals in order to get it all eaten, that's fine. It's just that it's otherwise not necessary. If you feel more satisfied by eating 5-6-7-whatever smaller meals through the day, that's fine too; it's just not necessary.

Again, the most important factor in your nutrition is to make certain you take in your daily requirement by day's end. Exactly when you eat those meals is of secondary importance.


A parting shot from Alan:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821

Hierarchy of Importance

When speaking of nutrition for improving body composition or training performance, it's crucial to realize there's an underlying hierarchy of importance. At the top of the hierarchy is total amount of the macronutrients by the end of the day. Distantly below that is the precise timing of those nutrients. With very few exceptions, athletes and active individuals eat multiple times per day. Thus, the majority of their day is spent in the postprandial (fed) rather than a post-absorptive (fasted) state. The vast majority of nutrient timing studies have been done on overnight-fasted subjects put through glycogen depletion protocols, which obviously limits the applicability of the outcomes. Pre-exercise (and/or during-exercise) nutrient intake often has a lingering carry-over effect into the post-exercise period. Throughout the day, there's a constant overlap of meal digestion & nutrient absorption. For this reason, the effectiveness of nutrient timing does not require a high degree of precision.

The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing

The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

[muladesigns]

The 'catabolism' factor has been highly overplayed by the supplement companies and their primary agents--the muscle magazines (who have a vested interest in seeing their advertisers rake in boatloads of cash from supplement sales. If a trainee is convinced he needs to eat every couple of hours before his muscles waste away to nothing, he's going to do whatever is easiest to meet that demand--buy powders and protein bars to replace cooking/packing/carrying all that food.

This, from Alan Aragon:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=18









Absolutely. There are many guys on this site who are making great progress and are eating only one or two big meals per day. It's a myth that you'll "go catabolic" if you don't eat every three hours.

If you need to eat such a large quantity of food that you must break it down into 5-6-7-whatever smaller meals in order to get it all eaten, that's fine. It's just that it's otherwise not necessary. If you feel more satisfied by eating 5-6-7-whatever smaller meals through the day, that's fine too; it's just not necessary.

Again, the most important factor in your nutrition is to make certain you take in your daily requirement by day's end. Exactly when you eat those meals is of secondary importance.


A parting shot from Alan:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821

wow! it's amazing how much misconception is out there. it's hard to sift through whats rubbish and usefully. thanks for the links. Looks like I have some good reading ahead of me.

Thanks again for the help!

[ironwill2008]

wow! it's amazing how much misconception is out there. it's hard to sift through whats rubbish and usefully. thanks for the links. Looks like I have some good reading ahead of me.

Thanks again for the help!

You're absolutely correct; the amount of misinformation floating around is staggering. And oddly enough, it always entails someone making money off of it. Go figure.


I'd strongly suggest you spend some time here:
*AA blog link: http://www.alanaragon.com/Home.html

This guy has no connection of any kind with the supplement industry; he deals in pure research, so he's free to actually speak the truth.

[muladesigns]

You're absolutely correct; the amount of misinformation floating around is staggering. And oddly enough, it always entails someone making money off of it. Go figure.


I'd strongly suggest you spend some time here:
*AA blog link: http://www.alanaragon.com/Home.html

This guy has no connection of any kind with the supplement industry; he deals in pure research, so he's free to actually speak the truth.

again, thank you for being so helpfull. It's much appreciated.

[hochspeyer]

My experience, my opinion:

I used to be a huge carb junkie... a pound of pasta slathered with butter and garlic was not unusual (not saying this is either right or normal). I'm still working on the diet thing- with my background that should not be a surprise. Interestingly, my diet is best at work because I have a finite amount of food, and in my experience, smaller meals spaced throughout the day work best for me. At the end of the day, I down a casein shake with milk, and it is quite satisfying. I don't think that comes anywhere answering the question, but might provide some insight as to why there is so much broscience out there.

Oh, I'm kinda hungry when I get up on this type of schedule, but its an okay kind of hungry.

[JOHN GARGANI]

thanks to BILL, as always, for his great contributions, and Alan Aragon is surely a good quote...

my feeling is that , similar to training, one must also learn to listen to their body when it comes to eating.

Stuffing food in your face when you are NOT hungry at all, is probably one of the worst things you can do!

myself: I get truly hungry every 3 hours, so it is no problem, however, I don't need a lot of food for satiety....since most of my training sessions are in the evening, the "last" meal of the day is a no brainer, as it is really more of a post workout meal than anything else....

and despite what time it might be ( last night I finished working out at about 10:10), I leave it up to my instincts whether to just have a good PWO drink, or to have solid food....

since I don't sweat the "anabolic window", another similarly overblown concept, whether or not I get "fast" protein at that time is meaningless to me....

[timberwolf]

The 'catabolism' factor has been highly overplayed by the supplement companies and their primary agents--the muscle magazines (who have a vested interest in seeing their advertisers rake in boatloads of cash from supplement sales. If a trainee is convinced he needs to eat every couple of hours before his muscles waste away to nothing, he's going to do whatever is easiest to meet that demand--buy powders and protein bars to replace cooking/packing/carrying all that food.

This, from Alan Aragon:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...1&postcount=18









Absolutely. There are many guys on this site who are making great progress and are eating only one or two big meals per day. It's a myth that you'll "go catabolic" if you don't eat every three hours.

If you need to eat such a large quantity of food that you must break it down into 5-6-7-whatever smaller meals in order to get it all eaten, that's fine. It's just that it's otherwise not necessary. If you feel more satisfied by eating 5-6-7-whatever smaller meals through the day, that's fine too; it's just not necessary.

Again, the most important factor in your nutrition is to make certain you take in your daily requirement by day's end. Exactly when you eat those meals is of secondary importance.


A parting shot from Alan:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821

Great post.

Do you subscribe to his research review as well?

[acwild]

I was debating with someone about eating a higher protein meal versus a higher carb meal before bed.
I suggested it to be a benefit. i thought this based on the fact that if I eat a higher carb meal at the end of the day instead of the higher protein, I felt much hungrier when I woke up. my stomach usually rumbles as well.
but i never get this when I eat protein.
I also thought that since your muscles need protein to grow, and we try and eat mostly protein meals every few hours, this would give a last source to last the 8 hrs of going without food.

Ive read a few articles that seem to say it "may help" but have not found any scientific studies on the subject.

I think the reason you'll read "eat before bed" or "don't eat late" or "eat 6 meals per day or don't" is because different people have different goals and individual bodies respond to difference stimulus.

Once I got my diet fixed, it was not eating late at night that helped really me drop body fat however, I was always the fat kid and I could put on 5 pounds of fat just looking at a slice of pizza.

A really thin hard gainer typically gets great results by eating late at night, perhaps because he's getting more clean calories.

Diabetes consultants are now recommending eating 6 meals a day to my grandma to keep her sugar levels steady, so there is some biases for eating smaller meals spread out during the day to balance nutritional levels (at least with blood glucose).

IMHO if you want to keep on getting what you're getting... keep on doing what you're doing. If you aren't getting what you want... make a change, find out what works for you.

[ironwill2008]

Great post.

Do you subscribe to his research review as well?

Thanks, TW. I take no credit; it goes to Alan Aragon.

Yes, I'm a subscriber. I followed his work closely even before subscribing to AARR.

[ironwill2008]

since I don't sweat the "anabolic window", another similarly overblown concept, whether or not I get "fast" protein at that time is meaningless to me....

I'm glad you brought this up, John. RE: the "anabolic window; "I can expound on it with a couple of pics:

What we've been led to believe:




How it really is:

[muladesigns]

I'm glad you brought this up, John. RE: the "anabolic window; "I can expound on it with a couple of pics:

What we've been led to believe:




How it really is:

haha! good point! I eat a high protein breakfast about an hour after each workout. Not because I feel that I have to. but, because it's the first opportunity I get to make my breakfast.
I workout in the am, So I eat a small snack sized meal like 1/2 cup cottage cheese, or a cup of oatmeal with a banana before a workout. I don't like to lift on an empty, or a full stomach either.
After the workout is my egg omelet (4 whites, 1 yolk) with cheese, and turkey burger crumbled in.
now that I dropped my breads, I'm going to start wrapping my tuna and chicken with lettuce. unless anyone knows a bread that is a benefit if one were to consume about 2-4 slices throughout the course of the day. (is 4 to many?)

[ironwill2008]

now that I dropped my breads, I'm going to start wrapping my tuna and chicken with lettuce. unless anyone knows a bread that is a benefit if one were to consume about 2-4 slices throughout the course of the day. (is 4 to many?)

Food choices are entirely up to the individual. All across this site, these types of discussions always degenerate into a "clean" vs "dirty" food debate. The fact of the matter is that as far as body composition goes, the body only sees food as three main macro groups--carbs, protein, and fat. It neither knows, or cares, what the source of these macros might be.

From an overall health standpoint, that's a different story. But again, that choice is entirely up to the individual.


BTW, unless you're very carb-sensitive, there's no real need to avoid carbs. They are the body's go-to energy source, as well as a great source of micronutrients.

[muladesigns]

Food choices are entirely up to the individual. All across this site, these types of discussions always degenerate into a "clean" vs "dirty" food debate. The fact of the matter is that as far as body composition goes, the body only sees food as three main macro groups--carbs, protein, and fat. It neither knows, or cares, what the source of these macros might be.

From an overall health standpoint, that's a different story. But again, that choice is entirely up to the individual.


BTW, unless you're very carb-sensitive, there's no real need to avoid carbs. They are the body's go-to energy source, as well as a great source of micronutrients.

I do notice that I seem to appear a bit more bloated after having carbs. Could be to much at one sitting though.
I also understand a calorie is a calorie, but I am trying to eat clean to keep healthy. im eating aprox 1900 calories per day because i'm trying to loose the last 10 lbs (aprox) of fat thats on me. could be 15. I'll know when I drop the 10

[ironwill2008]

I also understand a calorie is a calorie, but I am trying to eat clean to keep healthy.

Understood. I generally avoid empty-calorie food sources as well, the key being, moderation.

My personal nutrition philosophy is that your 'innards' should look as good as your 'outards.'

[Runic]

Nice information here... I know IW and DD love the research on Alan's site. Out of curiosity how technical is the info? Is it something anyone could take and apply or is it way out there technical.

[ironwill2008]

Out of curiosity how technical is the info? Is it something anyone could take and apply or is it way out there technical.

It varies according to the particular subject matter, as you might imagine. The thing about AA is that he has the unique ability to break things down to where the average guy can understand and get value from what he writes. IMO, if you want the facts about nutrition and supplementation, not clouded by broscience, BS, or any other ulterior motive or agenda, it's the best $10/month you'll ever spend.



Here's link to his Review, with a sample issue for you to judge for yourself:
http://www.alanaragon.com/researchreview

[paolo59]

Interesting and very worthwhile reading! As informative and helpful a thread as I've read on the boards here in months!

[JOHN GARGANI]

just printed up AA's sample issue.....

[snorkelman]

just printed up AA's sample issue.....

If the nitty gritty details you encounter are something you enjoy, spend $10 and you will get access to all of the past issues. That is an amazing deal, even if you cancel your subscription. I suspect that if you find the research reviews interesting, you will be like the rest of us subscribers and really craving the next update (which is regularly late just to tease us).

[discdoggie]

It varies according to the particular subject matter, as you might imagine. The thing about AA is that he has the unique ability to break things down to where the average guy can understand and get value from what he writes]

Yes. If the research review was filled with scientific jargon and gobbledegook, I probably wouldn't subscribe. I don't consider myself a dummy, but I also don't consider reading stuff from pub med and other studies pleasure reading. AARR is, at least to me.

. IMO, if you want the facts about nutrition and supplementation, not clouded by broscience, BS, or any other ulterior motive or agenda, [i]it's the best $10/month you'll ever spend.

I agree. I devour the review as soon as I receive it. I've yet to regret a single penny I've spent. Honestly, I feel more knowledgeable and informed than many RDs out there practicing now, mainly because I stay current. And I stay current because I can read through the review without wanting to kill myself.

[Runic]

Thanks guys gonna read the sample and see what's up. If it is good then $10 a month is a small price to pay.

[drspin98]

Wow-great info all!! A question I have had some trouble answering is about my PreWO. I'm in the gym about 45 minutes after I get out of bed in the early (5) AM. I have been doing 20 grams whey and some beta-alanine. I wonder if I need carbs in there or not-taking them out seems to have little impact, but I'm always looking for "an edge"!

My goal is (shock the world!) gaining LBM(right now I'm cutting) .

Thanks in advance!!

[drudixon]

I was debating with someone about eating a higher protein meal versus a higher carb meal before bed.
I suggested it to be a benefit. i thought this based on the fact that if I eat a higher carb meal at the end of the day instead of the higher protein, I felt much hungrier when I woke up. my stomach usually rumbles as well.
but i never get this when I eat protein.
I also thought that since your muscles need protein to grow, and we try and eat mostly protein meals every few hours, this would give a last source to last the 8 hrs of going without food.

Ive read a few articles that seem to say it "may help" but have not found any scientific studies on the subject.

Protein absorption rates are highest for 24 hours following resistance training. The more time your body has access to protein during this period, the better your anabolism will be. Scientific studies demonstrate this.

[ironwill2008]

I have been doing 20 grams whey and some beta-alanine. I wonder if I need carbs in there or not-taking them out seems to have little impact, but I'm always looking for "an edge"!

You've pretty much answered your own question. As long as you feel you have adequate energy to get thorugh a workout, you're good to go.

There are many guys on this site who train fasted with no problem at all.

[muladesigns]

Protein absorption rates are highest for 24 hours following resistance training. The more time your body has access to protein during this period, the better your anabolism will be. Scientific studies demonstrate this.

Which would then back up the fact that it does not matter when protein is ingested. as long as its done each day.
I have learned however reading bits about the Kato diet,that the timing of certain carbs. Such as fruits, are a benefit right before a strenuous activity.
that they give a quick spike of energy. so I guess that would be the only type of benefit of meal planning and spacing you could actually benefit from. that is of course. If I read that correctly.

[STelevation]

I take casein pre-bed which is giving me problems. So i can pretty much take it whenever as long as i get it in the day?

[ironwill2008]

I take casein pre-bed which is giving me problems. So i can pretty much take it whenever as long as i get it in the day?

Yes. What's most important is simply to make sure you take in all your day's macro requirements sometime that day.