Weird DAA side-effects

[EatPrayLift]

I started a DAA+Activate Extreme stack 17 days ago and had sort of a strange experience. 2 weeks in I wasnt experiencing any changes in libido or appetite and had minimal strength gains. I decided to stop the DAA and see what happened and its been like someone flipped a switch; my appetite and libido are through the roof and I feel unstoppable in the gym, all within about 3 days. It seems like the DAA had a backwards effect on my test levels. Anyone find this weird or experienced similar side effects from DAA?

EDIT: Forgot to mention strange sleep patterns on DAA, which cleared up after stopping

[RyKane]

Sounds to me like the DAA just started kicking in and you took yourself off of it. It's nothing an ingredient where immediate imapcts will happen.

[Daycrawler]

I started a DAA+Activate Extreme stack 17 days ago and had sort of a strange experience. 2 weeks in I wasnt experiencing any changes in libido or appetite and had minimal strength gains. I decided to stop the DAA and see what happened and its been like someone flipped a switch; my appetite and libido are through the roof and I feel unstoppable in the gym, all within about 3 days. It seems like the DAA had a backwards effect on my test levels. Anyone find this weird or experienced similar side effects from DAA?

EDIT: Forgot to mention strange sleep patterns on DAA, which cleared up after stopping

Hmm. Some people respond poorly to DAA.. Interesting.

[kpar21]

Sometimes things like daa can take up to 3 weeks for effects to show.

[BDiamond]

I agree that you should have waited a little bit longer before ending it.

[Acal83]

You done goof'd op.

Test boosters almost always take about 3 weeks to start working for me and continue to work for a couple weeks after

[On Fire]

Fuk DAA.

[EatPrayLift]

Sounds to me like the DAA just started kicking in and you took yourself off of it. It's nothing an ingredient where immediate imapcts will happen.

I thought the same thing, but then again its strange how everything started to reverse itself as soon as I was off. Either way the AX by itself is kickass so im not complaining!!

[Mr.Cooper69]

I thought the same thing, but then again its strange how everything started to reverse itself as soon as I was off. Either way the AX by itself is kickass so im not complaining!!

I really think it's because you stopped the DAA. If you weren't loading, you wouldnt see much until ~Day 20 anyway.

[EatPrayLift]

I really think it's because you stopped the DAA. If you weren't loading, you wouldnt see much until ~Day 20 anyway.

Ive been off of it for about 4 days would it be advisable to continue now or just forget it and finish up the AX?

[Mr.Cooper69]

Ive been off of it for about 4 days would it be advisable to continue now or just forget it and finish up the AX?

How much do you have left?

[Sldge]

I started a DAA+Activate Extreme stack 17 days ago and had sort of a strange experience. 2 weeks in I wasnt experiencing any changes in libido or appetite and had minimal strength gains. I decided to stop the DAA and see what happened and its been like someone flipped a switch; my appetite and libido are through the roof and I feel unstoppable in the gym, all within about 3 days. It seems like the DAA had a backwards effect on my test levels. Anyone find this weird or experienced similar side effects from DAA?

EDIT: Forgot to mention strange sleep patterns on DAA, which cleared up after stopping

Its really not that strange if you look at what DAA does with regards to blood work. Even though it increases testosterone 40-50% it increases estrogen at a higher rate then it increases test. It also increases prolactin which has a negative impact on sex drive etc.

With Activate Xtreme it lowers estrogen by 5-10% while increasing testosterone 100-150% and because of the Mucuna in the formula prolactin is lowered instead of increased. Thats better for increases in sex drive.

[Mr.Cooper69]

Its really not that strange if you look at what DAA does with regards to blood work. Even though it increases testosterone 40-50% it increases estrogen at a higher rate then it increases test. It also increases prolactin which has a negative impact on sex drive etc.

With Activate Xtreme it lowers estrogen by 5-10% while increasing testosterone 100-150% and because of the Mucuna in the formula prolactin is lowered instead of increased. Thats better for increases in sex drive.

In theory, this makes sense, but the DAA effects would not subside overnight given his period of usage, so I really don't think this is the cause.

[Sldge]

In theory, this makes sense, but the DAA effects would not subside overnight given his period of usage, so I really don't think this is the cause.

No but by day 3 the concentration of DAA would have reduced enough that it could explain the differences he was feeling and wasnt. Going off of blood work that is the more likely explanation.

DAA, based on the study everyone likes to quote for its test boosting effect, shows that levels peaked at 42% by day 12. It works relatively quickly and stops working relatively quickly.

edit: I just read through the study and they did the testing on day 12 and found out that by 3 days post use levels were essentially back to baseline.

[Unpossible]

I'm with you OP. I took TestForce2 (DAA) for shiets and giggles and felt better when it ran out.

[coolaidml]

Its really not that strange if you look at what DAA does with regards to blood work. Even though it increases testosterone 40-50% it increases estrogen at a higher rate then it increases test. It also increases prolactin which has a negative impact on sex drive etc.

With Activate Xtreme it lowers estrogen by 5-10% while increasing testosterone 100-150% and because of the Mucuna in the formula prolactin is lowered instead of increased. Thats better for increases in sex drive.

Since you say is raises Estrogen levels even more than the Test levels do you believe one needs to take an Estrogen blocker while using DAA?

[Daycrawler]

Since you say is raises Estrogen levels even more than the Test levels do you believe one needs to take an Estrogen blocker while using DAA?

It's always been the general opinion that DAA should be ran with an Inhibit-E/PES Erase type product.

[triplewhammy]

I'm currently running DAA + Triazole + L-Dopa for anyone who's interested: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...493573&page=22

[EatPrayLift]

How much do you have left?

roughly 14 days worth

[WSMPudzian]

Its really not that strange if you look at what DAA does with regards to blood work. Even though it increases testosterone 40-50% it increases estrogen at a higher rate then it increases test. It also increases prolactin which has a negative impact on sex drive etc.

With Activate Xtreme it lowers estrogen by 5-10% while increasing testosterone 100-150% and because of the Mucuna in the formula prolactin is lowered instead of increased. Thats better for increases in sex drive.

Sldge,

It's real that Secoisolariciresinol in Act X is a proestrogenic compound and that it's a lignan precursor of a phytoestrogen called enterolactone?
And what's the function of Maca in Act X (Maca does not appear to increase testosterone, unless I'm mistaken)?

Thanks

[Sldge]

Sldge,

It's real that Secoisolariciresinol in Act X is a proestrogenic compound and that it's a lignan precursor of a phytoestrogen called enterolactone?
And what's the function of Maca in Act X (Maca does not appear to increase testosterone, unless I'm mistaken)?

Thanks

Secoisolariciresinol is an anti-aromatase compound:

Planta Med. 1995 Apr;61(2):138-40.
Aromatase inhibitors from Urtica dioica roots.
Gansser D, Spiteller G.
Source

Lehrstuhl Organische Chemie I, Universität Bayreuth, NW I, Universitätsstrasse 30, D-95440 Bayreuth, Germany.
Abstract

Methanolic extracts of stinging nettle (Urtica dioica L.) roots were investigated for aromatase inhibition. Enzyme inhibition was detected only after appropriate chromatographic separation. Inhibitory effects on aromatase could be demonstrated in vitro for a variety of compounds belonging to different classes. The following compounds developed weak to moderate activity: secoisolariciresinol, oleanolic and ursolic acid, (9Z,11E)-13-hydroxy-9,11-octadecadienoic acid, and 14-octacosanol (5). Inhibitory effects on aromatase have been known to date neither for pentacyclic triterpenes nor for secondary fatty alcohols. The potential physiological significance of the above findings is discussed. Compound 5 is a previously unknown constituent of plants.

Also:
Br J Nutr. 2010 Mar;103(5):677-85. Epub 2009 Oct 8.
Dietary intake and urinary excretion of lignans in Finnish men.
Nurmi T, Mursu J, Peñalvo JL, Poulsen HE, Voutilainen S.
Source

Research Institute of Public Health, School of Public Health and Clinical Nutrition, University of Kuopio, PO Box 1627, FI-70211 Kuopio, Finland. tarja.nurmi@uku.fi
Abstract

Intake of lignans has been assessed in different study populations, but so far none of the studies has compared the daily intake of lignans and the urinary excretion of plant and enterolignans. We assessed the intake of lariciresinol, pinoresinol, secoisolariciresinol and matairesinol in 100 Finnish men consuming their habitual omnivorous diet, and measured the 24 h urinary excretion of plant and enterolignans to compare the intake and metabolism. Dietary determinants of lignan intake and their urinary excretion were also determined. The mean intake of lignans was 1224 (sd 539) mug/d, of which lariciresinol and pinoresinol covered 78 %. Almost half (47 %) of the intake of lignans was explained by the intake of rye products, berries, coffee, tea and roots. The urinary excretion of plant lignans corresponded to 17 % and enterolignans to 92 % of the intake of lignans. The urinary excretion of plant lignans was explained 14 % by the intake of rye products and intake of coffee, and consequently 3-7 % by the intake of water-insoluble fibre. The urinary excretion of enterolactone was explained 11 % by the intake of vegetables and rye products, 14 % by the intake of water-soluble fibre and only 4 % by the intake of lariciresinol. Although the assessed intake of lignans corresponded well with the urinary excretion of lignans, the enterolactone production in the human body depended more on the dietary sources of lignans than the absolute intake of lignans.

There is also this:

J Chromatogr B Analyt Technol Biomed Life Sci. 2002 Sep 25;777(1-2):289-309.
Mammalian phytoestrogens: enterodiol and enterolactone.
Wang LQ.
Source

Department of Medicinal Chemistry, College of Pharmacy, University of Florida, PO Box 100485, 1600 SW Archer Road, Gainesville, FL 32610, USA. 1qwang@ufl.edu
Abstract

The mammalian phytoestrogens enterodiol (END) and enterolactone (ENL) are produced in the colon by the action of bacteria on the plant precursors matairesinol (MAT), secoisolariciresinol (SECO), their glycosides, and other precursors in the diet. Both END and ENL have been shown to possess weakly estrogenic and antiestrogenic activities, and it has been suggested that the high production of these antiestrogenic mammalian lignans in the gut may serve to protect against breast cancer in women and prostate cancer in men. Various in vitro experiments suggested END and ENL significantly inhibited the growth of human colon tumor cells, and the E2-induced proliferation of MCF-7 breast cancer cells was inhibited by ENL. The protective effects of mammalian lignans may be due to their ability to compete with E2 for the type II estrogen receptor, to induce sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), to inhibit placental aromatase, and to act as antioxidants. This review mainly deals with the chemistry, quantitative analysis, biological properties and health effects of END and ENL.


I thought we had explained why we use Maca in our write ups but just in case. It increases performance as an ergogenic aid as well as benefiting sexual desire or libido.

J Ethnopharmacol. 2009 Dec 10;126(3):574-6. Epub 2009 Sep 23.
A pilot investigation into the effect of maca supplementation on physical activity and sexual desire in sportsmen.
Stone M, Ibarra A, Roller M, Zangara A, Stevenson E.
Source

School of Psychology and Sports Sciences, Northumbria University, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 8ST, UK. mark2.stone@unn.ac.uk
Abstract
AIMS OF THE STUDY:

Maca (Lepidium meyenii Walp) is consumed both as a sports supplement by strength and endurance athletes, and as a natural stimulant to enhance sexual drive. However, whether or not the postulated benefits of maca consumption are of scientific merit is not yet known. The aim of the study was therefore to investigate the effect of 14 days maca supplementation on endurance performance and sexual desire in trained male cyclists.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Eight participants each completed a 40 km cycling time trial before and after 14 days supplementation with both maca extract (ME) and placebo, in a randomised cross-over design. Subjects also completed a sexual desire inventory during each visit.
RESULTS:

ME administration significantly improved 40 km cycling time performance compared to the baseline test (P=0.01), but not compared to the placebo trial after supplementation (P>0.05). ME administration significantly improved the self-rated sexual desire score compared to the baseline test (P=0.01), and compared to the placebo trial after supplementation (P=0.03).
CONCLUSIONS:

14 days ME supplementation improved 40 km cycling time trial performance and sexual desire in trained male cyclists. These promising results encourage long-term clinical studies involving more volunteers, to further evaluate the efficacy of ME in athletes and normal individuals and also to explore its possible mechanisms of action.

And this:

Forsch Komplementmed. 2009 Dec;16(6):373-80. Epub 2009 Dec 16.
Lepidium meyenii (Maca): a plant from the highlands of Peru--from tradition to science.
Gonzales GF, Gonzales C, Gonzales-Castañeda C.
Source

Instituto de Investigaciones de la Altura, and Faculty of Sciences and Philosophy, Universidad Peruana Cayetano Heredia, Lima, Peru. ggr@upch.edu.pe
Abstract

This review summarizes the current state of knowledge on Lepidium meyenii (maca), a cruciferous plant (Brassicaceae family) which is cultivated exclusively at an altitude of 4,000-4,500 m in the Peruvian Central Andes. Maca is traditionally used for its nutritional and presumed medicinal properties. Over the past 20 years, interest in maca has increased in many parts of the world, and since 2005 maca is considered one of the seven Peruvian flag products. Maca is exported as powder, capsules, pills, flour, liquor, and extracts. There are different types of maca with differ-ent colors ranging from white to black. We have studied the pharmacological effects of 3 types; yellow, black, and red maca. Evidence from experimental studies indicates effects of maca on nutrition, fertility, memory, and mood. Black maca has better effects on sperm production than yellow maca which has only moderate effects. Red maca, however, has no effect on sperm production. However, red maca has been shown to reduce prostate size in rats in which prostate hyperplasia had been induced with testosterone enanthate; yellow maca has shown moderate effects here, whereas black maca has not shown any effects. Randomized clinical trials have shown that maca has favorable effects on energy and mood, may decrease anxiety and improve sexual desire. Maca has also been shown to improve sperm production, sperm motility, and semen volume. Serum levels of testosterone, estradiol, LH, FSH, and prolactin were not affected. The exact mechanisms of action are still unclear, but so far research clearly indicates that various bioactive constituents contribute to the clinical effects reported.



You're welcome.

[Sldge]

Since you say is raises Estrogen levels even more than the Test levels do you believe one needs to take an Estrogen blocker while using DAA?

I think it would help. My preference would be Activate Xtreme because it both lowers both estrogen and blocks prolactin. Second choice would be what triplewhammy is doing and he saw a difference within 2 days of starting Triazole. He's running a good log.

I'm currently running DAA + Triazole + L-Dopa for anyone who's interested: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...493573&page=22

[em-dubya]

No but by day 3 the concentration of DAA would have reduced enough that it could explain the differences he was feeling and wasnt. Going off of blood work that is the more likely explanation.

DAA, based on the study everyone likes to quote for its test boosting effect, shows that levels peaked at 42% by day 13. It works relatively quickly and stops working relatively quickly.

Is there a study for 30 or 45 days?

[Sldge]

Is there a study for 30 or 45 days?

Not that I have seen. I have a feeling the researchers knew it would peak around that day (which seems to me to be an odd number of days to decide to test at) and that test levels decrease back to baseline from there on out.

[TMac26]

I love it when Sldge talks all scientific.

[em-dubya]

Not that I have seen. I have a feeling the researchers knew it would peak around that day (which seems to me to be an odd number of days to decide to test at) and that test levels decrease back to baseline from there on out.

I appreciate your theory Matt, however I used it for 45 days and saw continued strength ,agresssion and libido increases the whole way thru. I did have some blood taken twice during but they were for liver, cholesterol and such for some meds i was taking at the time.

[Mr.Cooper69]

I appreciate your theory Matt, however I used it for 45 days and saw continued strength ,agresssion and libido increases the whole way thru. I did have some blood taken twice during but they were for liver, cholesterol and such for some meds i was taking at the time.

I also have bloods after 1 month from 1 occassion.

[Sldge]

I appreciate your theory Matt, however I used it for 45 days and saw continued strength ,agresssion and libido increases the whole way thru. I did have some blood taken twice during but they were for liver, cholesterol and such for some meds i was taking at the time.

The only part that is theory is that it declines after day 12. Everything else is directly from the study. The highest level of test was at day 12 (they tested it on day 6, 12 and 3 days post use) and 3 days after having stopped levels were back to baseline.

I also have bloods after 1 month from 1 occassion.

Did you happen to get any after day 12 but before day 30?

[Mr.Cooper69]

The only part that is theory is that it declines after day 12. Everything else is directly from the study.

Did you happen to get any after day 12 but before day 30?

Unfortunately not, but my T levels were WAY above baseline from the 30 day mark in comparison to day 1.

[Sldge]

Unfortunately not, but my T levels were WAY above baseline from the 30 day mark in comparison to day 1.

Werent you going to post the blood work?