How is god just?

[burnedfish]

Because there's no proof of him, and if we're gonna believe in things that have absolutely no objective validity in them, then why not just believe in pink unicorns that are also invisible and reside in your toilet?

Is there a thousands year old book written about pink unicorns? Is there a historical FACT that pink unicorns existed? Bad, analogy is bad.

Perhaps in another thread (if you'd like to make one), we can discuss proofs there is no god. I'd love to reply. We can continue this conversation there. I want the thread to remain on the OP topic of God's justice.

But really, this thread is about how the OP finds the Christian God to be unjust, and I am very curious how he could do a better job...

[Godfrd824]

Is there a thousands year old book written about pink unicorns? Is there a historical FACT that pink unicorns existed? Bad, analogy is bad.

Perhaps in another thread (if you'd like to make one), we can discuss proofs there is no god. I'd love to reply. We can continue this conversation there. I want the thread to remain on the OP topic of God's justice.

But really, this thread is about how the OP finds the Christian God to be unjust, and I am very curious how he could do a better job...

There are thousand year old books that say that all kinds of Gods existed, why are those Gods less viable than yours?

And where is there a historical fact that your God existed?

[TH3SHR3DD3R]

catholicism was more or less the only denomination when the gospels were being chosen. everyone was a catholic, since catholic just means universal.



the books of the bible were chosen in such a fashion that corresponds to historical rigor. since jesus strongly asserts (along with the disciples) that the holy spirit actually acts in communion with the congregation. hence, widespread agreement on matters of doctrine amongst the faithful is considered to be divinely inspired on the basis of that being what jesus said. the original teachings of jesus are self-evidently the basis of christianity. that's not really a question open to debate.

Catholicism is also the end product of the Roman Empire acquiring what were essentially the copyrights of the popular Christian movement of the time and using them as yet another tool in their return to power. The spread of the Catholic version of Christianity has all the signatures of Roman involvement: violence, intimidation, torture. Smaller, 'heretical' movements had to be snuffed out, lest the reborn Roman Empire be challenged.

Besides, widespread agreement on something does not make it factual, unless it can be backed up (like the consensus among Jews that Jesus is not their Messiah); saying that selected Scripture from a wide array of differing Scriptures is true because Christians who did not have the original New Testament in their possession simply felt that it was right is a cop out. hell, the Gospels aren't even constructed from anything resembling original material, they're constructed from hearsay.

[burnedfish]

There are thousand year old books that say that all kinds of Gods existed, why are those Gods less viable than yours?

And where is there a historical fact that your God existed?

Like I said, I would be happy to converse with you about the historicity of Christ and the Christian religion. Lets just make that a separate thread.

Within the thread's topic, do you think God is just?

[Godfrd824]

Like I said, I would be happy to converse with you about the historicity of Christ and the Christian religion. Lets just make that a separate thread.

Within the thread's topic, do you think God is just?

Woah buddy, I'm just there was a dude named Jesus who was trolling around, the issue is, he wasn't anything special, he was just another guy, don't try to skew what I'm saying, and hell no God is not just, how can someone who commands killing and raping and pillaging be just?

[TH3SHR3DD3R]

Like I said, I would be happy to converse with you about the historicity of Christ and the Christian religion. Lets just make that a separate thread.

Within the thread's topic, do you think God is just?

Your Christ is not the Jewish Messiah, ergo, your Christ's God does not exist.

/thread

[Zigrakil]

Catholicism is also the end product of the Roman Empire acquiring what were essentially the copyrights of the popular Christian movement of the time and using them as yet another tool in their return to power. The spread of the Catholic version of Christianity has all the signatures of Roman involvement: violence, intimidation, torture. Smaller, 'heretical' movements had to be snuffed out, lest the reborn Roman Empire be challenged.

reborn roman empire? which empire are you referring to, exactly? are you aware that the books of the bible which were accepted were already in widespread use before the edict of milan was even issued? which "heretical" movements were you referring to? most heresies in early christianity were purged by the congregations who threw out what they perceived to be heretical bishops, not by some emperor.

this is some serious revisionism you're putting forward here. the idea that the roman empire fell or was reobrn because of christianity has been thoroughly debunked by modern historians since gibbon.

Besides, widespread agreement on something does not make it factual, unless it can be backed up (like the consensus among Jews that Jesus is not their Messiah); saying that selected Scripture from a wide array of differing Scriptures is true because Christians who did not have the original New Testament in their possession simply felt that it was right is a cop out. hell, the Gospels aren't even constructed from anything resembling original material, they're constructed from hearsay.

oral tradition, which you term hearsay, was the primary mode of discourse in jewish antiquity. the consensus among jews of TODAY is irrelevant to the consensus among jews in antiquity as to what a messiah actually is.

the church fathers, who actually were christians to begin with, considered the will of faithful in choosing which books to select. i'm not sure how you consider this a copout. if anything, it's democracy founded on the idea that the holy spirit worked within the faithful.

that aside, the books of the bible that WERE chosen are generally those with the best historical claim anyhow. books dating from the second or third century were excluded not just because they were too new to have any real connection to any of jesus' apostles, but also because no one amongst the faithful actually considered them relevant.

[burnedfish]

Woah buddy, I'm just there was a dude named Jesus who was trolling around, the issue is, he wasn't anything special, he was just another guy, don't try to skew what I'm saying, and hell no God is not just, how can someone who commands killing and raping and pillaging be just?

Let's keep it on topic and make another thread if you want to discuss Jesus' divinity. Sounds like you don't think God of the Bible is just, how come? Because he commanded people to do the things you listed?

Your Christ is not the Jewish Messiah, ergo, your Christ's God does not exist.

/thread

This thread is about God's justice. As stated earlier, I'm happy to continue a separate conversation in another thread

[outlikeatrout]

Your Christ is not the Jewish Messiah, ergo, your Christ's God does not exist.

/thread

You cut and paste from google, and then claim victory.

You make a positive logical assertion, and then back it up with philosophical opinion?!?

Weak sauce bro, weak sauce.

[Godfrd824]

You cut and paste from google, and then claim victory.

You make a positive logical assertion, and then back it up with philosophical opinion?!?

Weak sauce bro, weak sauce.

Your God doesn't exist.

[Bastian727]

I don't get it.

Which one?

[bambam50]

So you want me to read everything I copied and pasted and then write a book report? No, thanks; I actually read all of that, and I particularly like the Jewish writers. A lot of what I have read on Jesus not fulfilling the Messianic prophecies has been written by atheists, and those writings tend to focus on pointing out contradictions and fallacies and ignore the rich Jewish history and traditions. Fleshing out and explaining the meanings of Jewish idioms and providing an in-depth look at Jewish history is quite refreshing and interesting, rather than just providing a logical look at what Christianity has gotten wrong.

Do I agree with everything the Jewish writers wrote? No, especially any claims that THEIR religion is true. But assuming that it is, it must be demonstrated the Jesus meets the claims that he is the Jewish Messiah before we can claim that Christianity is true. That much, obviously, he fails at.

Hi TH3SHR3DD3R, have you ever read the case for Christ? many of the things you mention in your arguments are in that book.

[outlikeatrout]

Your God doesn't exist.

Oh well, I guess if you guys were able to back up the burden of proof that the shredder (and now you) created, you would have done it by now.

[Godfrd824]

Oh well, I guess if you guys were able to back up the burden of proof that the shredder (and now you) created, you would have done it by now.

But I can, and I have before, you see, all I have to do is disprove even the smallest thing about your bible, and your whole religion crumbles.

[bambam50]

But I can, and I have before, you see, all I have to do is disprove even the smallest thing about your bible, and your whole religion crumbles.

Really the only thing you've said is that God doesn't exist. Can you prove that... Forget about the bible for a sec.... Can you prove to me that there isn't a god?

[Godfrd824]

Really the only thing you've said is that God doesn't exist. Can you prove that... Forget about the bible for a sec.... Can you prove to me that there isn't a god?

Of course not, which is why I said that his God doesn't exist, could there be a God, sure.

Is it this ******* and his father?



No

[bambam50]

Of course not, which is why I said that his God doesn't exist, could there be a God, sure.

Is it this ******* and his father?

No

Ok prove that to me?

[Godfrd824]

Ok prove that to me?

Go read my previously previous post, where I explain how simple it is to disprove the Christian God. You can also look at my post history, I've done it before.

[Harbinger]

Your Christ is not the Jewish Messiah, ergo, your Christ's God does not exist.

/thread

This is pretty much all you need right here.

You cut and paste from google, and then claim victory.

You make a positive logical assertion, and then back it up with philosophical opinion?!?

Weak sauce bro, weak sauce.

If jesus was the messiah, there would be no christians. There would just be jews and they'd have their messiah.

[Zigrakil]

the atheist logic is truly cringe-worthy in this thread. i'd take dawkins over this.

[Heracles25]

This is pretty much all you need right here.



If jesus was the messiah, there would be no christians. There would just be jews and they'd have their messiah.

Why do you say this? It was prophesied that the people wouldn't didn't seek God and he shown himself to them(i.e. the gentiles)

[Harbinger]

Why do you say this? It was prophesied that the people wouldn't didn't seek God and he shown himself to them(i.e. the gentiles)

It was also prophesied that the messiah would do certain things, jesus hasn't done them all. That fact doesn't seem to have slowed you guys down any. It's also good reason for the jews to not accept Jesus as their messiah, because he isn't.

[Heracles25]

It was also prophesied that the messiah would do certain things, jesus hasn't done them all. That fact doesn't seem to have slowed you guys down any. It's also good reason for the jews to not accept Jesus as their messiah, because he isn't.

What certain things? I have noticed a few of you guys say this. Please list a few of these things.

[lucious]

It was also prophesied that the messiah would do certain things, jesus hasn't done them all. That fact doesn't seem to have slowed you guys down any. It's also good reason for the jews to not accept Jesus as their messiah, because he isn't.

lets not forget that the very idea of prophecy is mythological horsesh*t to begin with so the very idea is a non-starter, regardless of whether some stupid storybook reports prophecies as coming true(theyre just stories from jewish folklore tho)



How come we dont have any prophets today? Shouldnt that ring an alarm bell?


Anyone who wasnt an intellectual dishonest coward could see this

[Harbinger]

What certain things? I have noticed a few of you guys say this. Please list a few of these things.

I'm guessing you know which ones I'm talking about, the standard christian response is that jesus will.do them when he returns.

[Posthardcore]

The Abrahamic God is supposely Omniscient. Thus, he knew I would be led astray and would turn away from abrahamic religions. Why would He send me to hell for something He already knew I would do? Hell, why would he create a species where that many people would not believe? Why would he let Satan tempt Man as God said Man has a feeble mind and can easily be led astray?

The only genuine, unsatisfying and laughable answer I got was that God's logic was above Man's.

[James086]

The Abrahamic God is supposely Omniscient. Thus, he knew I would be led astray and would turn away from abrahamic religions. Why would He send me to hell for something He already knew I would do? Hell, why would he create a species where that many people would not believe? Why would he let Satan tempt Man as God said Man has a feeble mind and can easily be led astray?

The only genuine, unsatisfying and laughable answer I got was that God's logic was above Man's.

If God is omniscient then he knows everything. He knows what will happen in the future, if he knows then he can't change what's going to happen (or he would be wrong), thus he is either powerless or not omniscient.

[Posthardcore]

If God is omniscient then he knows everything. He knows what will happen in the future, if he knows then he can't change what's going to happen (or he would be wrong), thus he is either powerless or not omniscient.

Well it may seem tricky, but he could already know the decisions he's gonna take.

It's also trickier to talk about God and Him being in the time dimension.

[James086]

Decisions implies he has a choice, but if he knows what he's going to do then does he really have a choice?

[mistaballoonhan]

Short answer: He is not just (provided we assume he exists)

Long answer:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
*** Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. *Such evil must be purged from Israel.* (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
*
Kill Witches
*** You should not let a sorceress live.* (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
*
Kill Homosexuals
*** "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."* (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
*
Kill Fortunetellers
*** A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.* (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
*
Death for Hitting Dad
*** Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. *(Exodus 21:15 NAB)
*
Death for Cursing Parents
*** 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.* (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
*** 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.* They are guilty of a capital offense.* (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
*
Death for Adultery
*** If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.* (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
*
Death for Fornication
*** A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.* (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
*
Kill Nonbelievers
*** They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.* (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
*
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
*** Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.* In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.* If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.* Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.* Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.* That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.* Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.* Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.* He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.* "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."* (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
*
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
*** But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.* Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.* (Deuteronomy* 22:20-21 NAB)
*
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
*** 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.* Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.* You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.* And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.* (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
*
Death for Blasphemy
*** One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men.* During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. *So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. *His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan.* They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. *Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. *Then let the entire community stone him to death.* Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished.* Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. *Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die.* (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
*
Kill False Prophets
*** 1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, *and the predicted signs or miracles take place. *If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. *The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. *Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. *Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. *The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. *Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.* (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
*
*** 2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.'* You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?'* If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. *That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.* (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
*
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
*** For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites.* You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. *They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it.* Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. *Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.'* (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
*
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
*** The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. *It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.* Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. *Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.* Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. *I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'* (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Kill Sons of Sinners
*** Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.* (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
*
God Will Kill Children
*** The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.* Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.* It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.* I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.* But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."* O LORD, what should I request for your people?* I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.* The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.* I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.* I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.* The people of Israel are stricken.* Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.* And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."* (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
*
Kill Men, Women, and Children
*** "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. *Show no mercy; have no pity!* Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. *But do not touch anyone with the mark. *Begin your task right here at the Temple." *So they began by killing the seventy leaders.* "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. *"Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! *Go!" *So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." *(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
*
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
*** And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.* Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. *(Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
*
Kill Old Men and Young Women
*** "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. *"With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms.* With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer.* With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.* With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. *"As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD.* "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! *I am your enemy," says the LORD. *"I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. *When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble.* You will be desolate forever. *Even your stones will never again be used for building. *You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.* (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
**** (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter.* So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
*
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
*** If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.* I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. *(Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
*
More Rape and Baby Killing
*** Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.* Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.* Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.* For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.* The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.* They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.* (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)