Why the traditional Rippetoe/SS program sucks balls.

[kurse196]

You are not aware that the routine you got from this thread is a ****ed up version of the real SS (or regular SS as you call it)?

Yea I know it's an altered version. I am just wondering which is better.

[Farley1324]

Yea I know it's an altered version. I am just wondering which is better.

IMO the real one is better.

[kurse196]

IMO the real one is better.

KK thx bro

[zahz]

Going to be starting BLSS (this program) from Monday. I was wondering if I should try to push for 4-5 days per week after a few weeks. I'll start off with 3, but will it be incorrect recovery-wise for me to do that, even over time?

Other than that, I'll stick to a clean (as possible) 500 caloric surplus diet, should do?

You are not aware that the routine you got from this thread is a ****ed up version of the real SS (or regular SS as you call it)?

Also why is this ****ed up? I guess it is quite different from the original, but the main lifts are there right. The main reason I can't really do the original SS is because the only gym I really will have access to doesn't allow me to drop weights and cleans for me (at least in the beginning) will be hard to do effectively without dropping. So should this program be fine? Or should I go to a slightly closer one to the original like Kethnaab's version, which Rippetoe has seen/agrees to.

[Farley1324]

Going to be starting BLSS (this program) from Monday. I was wondering if I should try to push for 4-5 days per week after a few weeks. I'll start off with 3, but will it be incorrect recovery-wise for me to do that, even over time?

Other than that, I'll stick to a clean (as possible) 500 caloric surplus diet, should do?

No.

Also why is this ****ed up? I guess it is quite different from the original, but the main lifts are there right. The main reason I can't really do the original SS is because the only gym I really will have access to doesn't allow me to drop weights and cleans for me (at least in the beginning) will be hard to do effectively without dropping. So should this program be fine? Or should I go to a slightly closer one to the original like Kethnaab's version, which Rippetoe has seen/agrees to.

There you have it.

Your clean excuse is just that, an excuse. There is absolutely zero need to drop weights in order to do power cleans. If you can do deadlifts, you can do power cleans.

[zahz]

There you have it.

Your clean excuse is just that, an excuse. There is absolutely zero need to drop weights in order to do power cleans. If you can do deadlifts, you can do power cleans.

But what difference does it make? Is this program too much volume, or uneven per session or what? I'm new, so I'd appreciate some actual help.
I've been wanting to do one of these routines, but there's so many, such as Kehtnaab's, Rippetoe's and this one. I know Rippetoe's is the original, but I really cannot risk dropping the weight, I'm a beginner and the gym is strict. I don't see how this won't give you optimal results as well.

[Farley1324]

But what difference does it make? Is this program too much volume, or uneven per session or what? I'm new, so I'd appreciate some actual help.
I've been wanting to do one of these routines, but there's so many, such as Kehtnaab's, Rippetoe's and this one. I know Rippetoe's is the original, but I really cannot risk dropping the weight, I'm a beginner and the gym is strict. I don't see how this won't give you optimal results as well.

To make sure we are on the same page, please write out the precise specifics you are asking about doing when you say "this program"

I have never used bumper plates for power cleans. Ever. I have only dropped the bar one time. And that was on a failed 1RM attempt with 225 lbs, if I recall correctly. Working with a 5x3 weight and paying attention, there is no reason to be dropping the weight onto the floor.

[zahz]

To make sure we are on the same page, please write out the precise specifics you are asking about doing when you say "this program"

I have never used bumper plates for power cleans. Ever. I have only dropped the bar one time. And that was on a failed 1RM attempt with 225 lbs, if I recall correctly. Working with a 5x3 weight and paying attention, there is no reason to be dropping the weight onto the floor.

I realise what you're saying. I just don't have the environment to do this in, unless I perhaps buy a barbell with sufficient amount of plates to do this on my own property. I chose this program (BLSS, this thread) because the exercises fit my needs, but should show me good results if I do everything else needed such as diet correctly.

I've just been confused for the longest time going for program to program because different people pointing me into different directions, but I think I should just stick with one and see where it takes me, for me, that is BLSS, I don't see how one exercise will put me at a disadvantage if I've already got sufficient ones with good dieting and so forth.

Thank you for the frequency advice anyway, I'll do this three times a week and stick to that, at least until I plateau in which case I can switch programs.

[Farley1324]

I realise what you're saying. I just don't have the environment to do this in, unless I perhaps buy a barbell with sufficient amount of plates to do this on my own property. I chose this program (BLSS, this thread) because the exercises fit my needs, but should show me good results if I do everything else needed such as diet correctly.

I've just been confused for the longest time going for program to program because different people pointing me into different directions, but I think I should just stick with one and see where it takes me, for me, that is BLSS, I don't see how one exercise will put me at a disadvantage if I've already got sufficient ones with good dieting and so forth.

Thank you for the frequency advice anyway, I'll do this three times a week and stick to that, at least until I plateau in which case I can switch programs.

The differences between SS and this highly altered version go way beyond one exercise.

3x per week is a good plan.

Do it until it stops working. When it stops working, evaluate why before you do anything. Don't switch routines for the sake of switching.

[zahz]

The differences between SS and this highly altered version go way beyond one exercise.

3x per week is a good plan.

Do it until it stops working. When it stops working, evaluate why before you do anything. Don't switch routines for the sake of switching.

I'm trying to gain mass, and this one does seem geared towards that a bit more, whilst giving good strength gains which should help long term. I know I'll gain mass no matter what in the beginning, but I'd rather stick to something more convenient for me, but challenging too which I can mentally believe in.

I don't really want to get too fat (roughly at 12-13% BF) so I will be recording everything so when I do plateau I will look into why, then probably switch and go into a cut and then return to bulk. I need to gain around 30-40lb, so I have a while to go.

I've also heard that beginners can lose fat whilst putting on muscle? Is this possible if you're on a controlled surplus, or even very slight deficit, as I've tried tons and tons of research, and seems it can be done but slowly and won't last very long. It would be great to get myself a bit leaner on the way, saving me time later.

[Farley1324]

I'm trying to gain mass, and this one does seem geared towards that a bit more, whilst giving good strength gains which should help long term. I know I'll gain mass no matter what in the beginning, but I'd rather stick to something more convenient for me, but challenging too which I can mentally believe in.

I don't really want to get too fat (roughly at 12-13% BF) so I will be recording everything so when I do plateau I will look into why, then probably switch and go into a cut and then return to bulk. I need to gain around 40lb, so I have a while to go.

I've also heard that beginners can lose fat whilst putting on muscle? Is this possible if you're on a controlled surplus, or even very slight deficit, as I've tried tons and tons of research, and seems it can be done but slowly and won't last very long. It would be great to get myself a bit leaner on the way, saving me time later.

If are you are legitimately at 13% bodyfat you won't be able to gain muscle and lose fat. That phenomena is mostly reserved for fat or obese novices, or people on drugs. Neither of these apply here. Even if you could kinda sorta pull it off it would be as you say, very slow and not very long, in other words, far from optimal.

Bulk. Gain 1/2 pound of bodyweight per week, maybe a little more than that.

[zahz]

If are you are legitimately at 13% bodyfat you won't be able to gain muscle and lose fat. That phenomena is mostly reserved for fat or obese novices, or people on drugs. Neither of these apply here. Even if you could kinda sorta pull it off it would be as you say, very slow and not very long, in other words, far from optimal.

Bulk. Gain 1/2 pound of bodyweight per week, maybe a little more than that.

Alright thanks.

Do you think incorporating some HIIT cardio on "off" days should help reduce any overflow of calories which will turn into fat? I want to gain as lean as possible.

[Farley1324]

Alright thanks.

Do you think incorporating some HIIT cardio on "off" days should help reduce any overflow of calories which will turn into fat? I want to gain as lean as possible.

I don't think you need to worry about an overflow of calories. And if you did, in terms of body composition and muscle building/not accumulating too much fat, tweaking your diet would be better as HIIT will interfere with recovery.

If you want to do cardio for the sake of fitness or whatever I would do it on lifting days sometime after lifting, and keep off days off.

[ZakiYahia]

Plz aware me on deload weeks regarding this program

[Insanecardio]

Well the only main difference I see with this program to SS orgininal is not doing the clean. There is the added optional exercises, doing it more than 3 times a day, if you feel like it too though.

You are not aware that the routine you got from this thread is a ****ed up version of the real SS (or regular SS as you call it)?

I was wondering, what differences, positives and negatives, do you see with this program to SS original? Also, doesn't SS original say to add 10lbs to the squat and deadlift? You told me previously to add only 5lbs per workout. Is it just something better to add weight slower?


Thanks for you time in answering my questions.

[Oggie22]

Plz aware me on deload weeks regarding this program

You drop the weight on a lift by 10% if you fail a weight 2-3 times.

[Marombeiro97]

Just to let you know i always tell begginers to do your program , 5 in my gym doing it right know ahah

[Farley1324]

Well the only main difference I see with this program to SS orgininal is not doing the clean. There is the added optional exercises, doing it more than 3 times a day, if you feel like it too though.



I was wondering, what differences, positives and negatives, do you see with this program to SS original? Also, doesn't SS original say to add 10lbs to the squat and deadlift? You told me previously to add only 5lbs per workout. Is it just something better to add weight slower?


Thanks for you time in answering my questions.

Frequency of lifting days. Power clean. Extra lifts.

Rip does say to initially add 10 pounds per session to squats and deads, I tell people 5 lbs because, in my experience, many novices:

Don't eat enough
Start too heavy
Don't sleep enough
Don't know when to make the switch from 10 down to 5 pounds
Don't appreciate how stupid fast it gets HEAVY when adding weight every single time you do the lift

[mac520]

This routine looks very good and simple. I will follow it except for the squats since I have knee problem.

QUESTION: Are you sure its okay to do both rows and chin-ups on the same day? Won't they both be working the lats and so after you do 3x5 heavy rows, your lats will be too tired to give chin-ups full effort? Ditto for press and dips, since they both overlap on the triceps. What if I swapped the position of rows and deadlifts to look like this:

A: bench, deadlift, chin-up
B: press, row, dip

This way instead of having 2 upper pulls and 2 upper pushes overlapping, at least now the upper pulls are staggered and now it's only upper pushes that overlap. I think dips have a bit more overlap with bench than press, so it's best to keep them with press.

QUESTION: Why are chin-ups and dips 3x8? Can I do 3x5 instead and train them like any other muscle?

[Insanecardio]

This routine looks very good and simple. I will follow it except for the squats since I have knee problem.

QUESTION: Are you sure its okay to do both rows and chin-ups on the same day? Won't they both be working the lats and so after you do 3x5 heavy rows, your lats will be too tired to give chin-ups full effort? Ditto for press and dips, since they both overlap on the triceps. What if I swapped the position of rows and deadlifts to look like this:

A: bench, deadlift, chin-up
B: press, row, dip

This way instead of having 2 upper pulls and 2 upper pushes overlapping, at least now the upper pulls are staggered and now it's only upper pushes that overlap. I think dips have a bit more overlap with bench than press, so it's best to keep them with press.

QUESTION: Why are chin-ups and dips 3x8? Can I do 3x5 instead and train them like any other muscle?

I thought chins and dips are just do 15 t0 20 reps at once. No sets. Also, I think doing two exercises that hit the same muscle for better growth. I'm not sure.


Another thing, for cable pulls, is that 3x8?

[Oggie22]

This routine looks very good and simple. I will follow it except for the squats since I have knee problem.

QUESTION: Are you sure its okay to do both rows and chin-ups on the same day? Won't they both be working the lats and so after you do 3x5 heavy rows, your lats will be too tired to give chin-ups full effort? Ditto for press and dips, since they both overlap on the triceps. What if I swapped the position of rows and deadlifts to look like this:

A: bench, deadlift, chin-up
B: press, row, dip

This way instead of having 2 upper pulls and 2 upper pushes overlapping, at least now the upper pulls are staggered and now it's only upper pushes that overlap. I think dips have a bit more overlap with bench than press, so it's best to keep them with press.

QUESTION: Why are chin-ups and dips 3x8? Can I do 3x5 instead and train them like any other muscle?

You do chinups before rows. The chinups are your main lat/bicep movement. Treat rows as an accessory exercise just for some additional hypertrophy and strength. Doing both exercises will promote more growth and it'll also allow for more recovery time with those muscles by doing the exercises on the same day.

Chins and dips are 15-20 reps total. You can split it however you like: 1x20, 1x15, 2x8, 3x5, 3x8, 5x3, etc
Just do a total of between 15-20 reps across your sets.

[Oggie22]

I thought chins and dips are just do 15 t0 20 reps at once. No sets. Also, I think doing two exercises that hit the same muscle for better growth. I'm not sure.


Another thing, for cable pulls, is that 3x8?

Do whatever set x rep scheme you like most for cable rows (I'm assuming this is the exercise you meant)

[mac520]

This program looks great and I've been following it for two days. The only modification I did was remove squats for personal reasons and cut some of the accessory work. I also use dumbbells instead of barbells for more balanced growth.

A: 3x5 DB bench / 3x5 weighted chin-up / 3x5 DB row
B: 3x5 DB press / 1x5 BB deadlift / 3x5 weighted dip

I do A and B workouts on consecutive days, then take one rest day. I was afraid to do this at first because I thought it was a rule that you always needed 48 hours recovery between workouts. Maybe it's just because I'm a beginner with the DB lifts but I did my B workout today with only 26 hours of rest and I felt great. Now that I'm lifting 4-5 days a week instead of the slow standard 3 on Rippetoe I hope to make faster progress!

[Farley1324]

This program looks great and I've been following it for two days. The only modification I did was remove squats for personal reasons and cut some of the accessory work. I also use dumbbells instead of barbells for more balanced growth.

A: 3x5 DB bench / 3x5 weighted chin-up / 3x5 DB row
B: 3x5 DB press / 1x5 BB deadlift / 3x5 weighted dip

I do A and B workouts on consecutive days, then take one rest day. I was afraid to do this at first because I thought it was a rule that you always needed 48 hours recovery between workouts. Maybe it's just because I'm a beginner with the DB lifts but I did my B workout today with only 26 hours of rest and I felt great. Now that I'm lifting 4-5 days a week instead of the slow standard 3 on Rippetoe I hope to make faster progress!

You are not doing this program.

[mac520]

You are not doing this program.

How so?

[Farley1324]

How so?

This program looks great and I've been following it for two days. The only modification I did was remove squats for personal reasons and cut some of the accessory work. I also use dumbbells instead of barbells for more balanced growth.

A: 3x5 DB bench / 3x5 weighted chin-up / 3x5 DB row
B: 3x5 DB press / 1x5 BB deadlift / 3x5 weighted dip

I do A and B workouts on consecutive days, then take one rest day. I was afraid to do this at first because I thought it was a rule that you always needed 48 hours recovery between workouts. Maybe it's just because I'm a beginner with the DB lifts but I did my B workout today with only 26 hours of rest and I felt great. Now that I'm lifting 4-5 days a week instead of the slow standard 3 on Rippetoe I hope to make faster progress!

You aren't squatting. At all. You aren't even doing a deep knee bend!. That's the most significant lift of the entire program. So...you're not doing the program.

FFS, you have one lower body workset for every two training days.

[mac520]

You aren't squatting. At all. You aren't even doing a deep knee bend!. That's the most significant lift of the entire program. So...you're not doing the program.

FFS, you have one lower body workset for every two training days.

I'm well aware. I have been squatting for 7 years and now it's time for me to retire. After 7 years of lifting, my glutes and quads are the only muscles on my body to show significant gains, so much so that I have a hard time finding pants that fit right since they assume all men these days have rail thin legs and no ass. I also have irreparable cartilage damage in my knee that is only exacerbated by deep squats. Deadlifts are okay because the knee angle is less acute. I would only argue that squats are the most important lift of the program if you are (1) completely untrained and (2) don't have knee issues. Unfortunately I don't fit either criteria.

I'm really curious why everyone on bb.com is so quick to tell others that they must squat. It's almost becoming a cult.

[Mattschill]

Wait is OP george leeman?

[hammerfelt]

I'm well aware. I have been squatting for 7 years and now it's time for me to retire. After 7 years of lifting, my glutes and quads are the only muscles on my body to show significant gains, so much so that I have a hard time finding pants that fit right since they assume all men these days have rail thin legs and no ass. I also have irreparable cartilage damage in my knee that is only exacerbated by deep squats. Deadlifts are okay because the knee angle is less acute. I would only argue that squats are the most important lift of the program if you are (1) completely untrained and (2) don't have knee issues. Unfortunately I don't fit either criteria.

I'm really curious why everyone on bb.com is so quick to tell others that they must squat. It's almost becoming a cult.

Squats allow the most muscles to be hit for the most weight, sets, and reps. Dead lift hits roughly the same amount of muscles but you will burn out a lot faster than on squats.

Starting Strength is a beginner program not ending program. Do it for 12 weeks or however long you can milk linear progression and move onto something else.

[Farley1324]

I'm well aware. I have been squatting for 7 years and now it's time for me to retire. After 7 years of lifting, my glutes and quads are the only muscles on my body to show significant gains, so much so that I have a hard time finding pants that fit right since they assume all men these days have rail thin legs and no ass. I also have irreparable cartilage damage in my knee that is only exacerbated by deep squats. Deadlifts are okay because the knee angle is less acute. I would only argue that squats are the most important lift of the program if you are (1) completely untrained and (2) don't have knee issues. Unfortunately I don't fit either criteria.

I'm really curious why everyone on bb.com is so quick to tell others that they must squat. It's almost becoming a cult.

1. If you've been lifting for 7 years, what are you doing on some butchered novice routine?

2. If you've been lifting for 7 years, and only two muscles show significant gains...what have you been doing?

3. Squats, and more important some kind of deep knee bend, are important for people well beyond "completely untrained"

4. If you can't bend your legs for a full ROM, you think maybe that would have been worth mentioning or bringing up earlier? Nah, probably not.

5. Good luck with your lifting goals of 2014