Why the traditional Rippetoe/SS program sucks balls.

[Farley1324]

the hamstrings perform what i believe is called an isometric contraction, meaning they dont shorten nor lengthen during the range of motion of the squat

lolno

The hamstrings do work during a squat.

(as in actual work, quantified work, helping to move the weight, isometric contraction means no work does as the definition of work is weight moved times the distance it was moved)

[JoeyTS]

I hope this does not degenerate into a split versus full body debate. That has been done to death a million times. In this thread I am going to address why I believe in SS and higher frequency training, but also why I believe that the traditional SS route is not optimal. I will endeavour to make this a logical post.

Preface - Results speak loudest
When people I coach ask me for diet advice, I flat out refuse to give it to them. Why? Because I sure as hell am not lean enough to be giving out diet advice. The same applies for everything you do, and the training advice you take. I know big legs, big squats, big deadlifts and strength training. I don't know how to sculpt your rear deltoid, and until I have an awesome pair myself, you would be an idiot to take my advice. I don't take advice from people weaker than me, or who are not where I want to be.

Let's be honest. How many people have we seen finish Rippetoes and look awesome? I'm hard pressed to find any. Even Rippetoe himself posted this one horrendous looking chubby guy as his flagship lifter and justification for the program... hardly convincing, and rightly so.

Now the question is, is this because full body training is flawed? Absolutely not. I simply think SS criminally neglect important training aspects in an over zealous attempt to 'simplify.'

Now, I'll break things down into various justification.

1. Why higher frequency for the beginner.
Typically this applies to the weak, under conditioned and skinny or fat/weak guys. People with a comprehensive need a slightly different approach. For simplicities sake, we will stick to the skinny 130 pounder.

People need to break out of this false paradigm of 'split versus fully body' and various stupid **** like 'gh release from squats make your arms bigger.' This type of thinking belongs in the early 2000's when fat guys who lift weights got on the internet and started justifying why they look like ****.

The issue at hand is FREQUENCY. How many times a week are you performing movements. For the absolute beginner this is extremely important. Why? Because the more often you perform a squat, bench, dead, press etc, the faster you teach your CNS to activate what you have. This is crucial for laying the foundation for the rest of your career.

By far my best body part are my legs, and what did I do? Squat a ****load, and often. Prior to injuries I would squat more often in a month than most people will in 2 years of training. This has incredible results, and it's because of the same reason splits seem to work. I know that seems weird, but think how much VOLUME I get training at high frequency. Doing 60+ reps a week at 90% of 1rm is going to do things to your legs that not even the most intense 20 set leg session will.

So, this is why the principle behind SS works so well. It just gets people training often, and training heavy. Any beginner I train does a modified SS, but until 6 months I won't have the results to show you all. I will detail my modifications later.

Results speak loudest.

2. So what's wrong with the current SS set up?

Current SS program is

ABA, BAB week to week.

A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Rows/cleans 3x5
2x8 chins*

B
Squat 3x5
MP Press 3x5
Deads 1x5
2x8 dips

*Optional

a. It's too easy at the start, 3x a week for an absolute beginner is a joke. If we take a typical 5lbs increase starting at 85lbs, and a 15lbs increase a week, then getting to 225 3x5 takes upwards of 10 weeks... too long imo. I have two guys who are hitting rock bottom 2 plates after 4 and 6 weeks. And if you're doing a super high calorie diet you simply get fast whilst wasting 3 months getting a barely passable standard.

(Before you all nit pick about this, take on the general idea, don't start bitching about the specific numbers)

b. Poor exercise selection.

We typically see people come off Rippetoes with tiny rear delts, relatively weak upper backs. Some people choose to powerclean which is absolutely idiotic. It takes far too much technical prowess to get a powerclean to adequately work the upper back. So people are pressing OH and flat benching 3x a week with literally no rowing movement. Some are smarter and do BB rows, but I believe the beginner lacks coordination to properly do rows in a way that combats the internal rotation from the pressing. Also, the chin ups are treated as optional when they should be mandatory, cause squatting works those lats... right?

Furthermore, the back squat 3x a week is also not optimal. I believe that the session B should instead have a front squat once the beginner is able to squat over 135lbs. I'm a huge believer in teaching front squats early, but as I said, I need my guys to get the results before I'm 100% convinced. As the program gets more challenging, having the different squat will help alleviate much of the stress and anxiety people being to feel around it.

c. Too much 'don't curl idiocy.'
I like to think in general, the internet lifting world has grown up from its infancy. Yes, we get it, people curl in the rack and you want to make yourself feel better by ripping on them. STFU.

Direct arm work is NOT an issue on SS, and should be entirely descretionary depending on your mood for the day.

3. So what do we do instead

a. Train more often! I advocate a minimum 3x a week, but how often are beginners, once the initial soreness subsides after the first week gunning to train more. To which fat unconditioned idiots always cry 'overtrainig.' Let me make this very clear. Someone who can't squat 225x5 is physically incapable of overtraining. You simply do not have the CNS recruitment to overtrain. So, instead of sticking to the A B A, B A B, format, train as often as you feel like it. If you can go 6 days straight alternating the two workouts, all the power to you, if you are starting to feel to beaten up, drop back to 3-4. Either way, just train MORE often. You need to stop thinking session to session, and instead sit back and realise how much more volume you will complete over a 6 month period training 4x a week instead of 3. That's a 33% load increase just from doing one extra session.

b. Be smart with the exercises.
Don't powerclean. Try and do rows, but most importantly you MUST do the chin ups, Preferably widish grip and overhand, following workout A. If you are feeling good, do DEEP dips for workout B. I also have no issue if the beginner does something like cable rows after the chin ups. SS is extremely negligent of the upper back.

c. If you want to curl. do the ****ing curls for ****s sake.

[b]What should it look like instead[b]

The two days:
A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Chins 15-20 total reps, add weight or use assisted.
Rows 3x5 SUPER STRICT.
Optional: Cable rows, 3x8 bicep work, 3x8 rear delt flyes, do this at your own discretion. If you don't feel like it, don't worry

B
Front squat 3x5
MP 3x5
Deadlifts 1x5
Optional: 15-20 reps of dips, 3x8 tricep work

Training frequency:
I prefer people not to think about training on the exact say, I simply suggest a minimum of 3 sessions. If you are feeling good, are eating lots and recovering well, trying and train more. Sometimes people have bad days, feel tired, stay up pate to finish assignments, and some days you wake up ready to squat Jupiter.

DO NOT FORCE YOURSELF TO TRAIN MORE. SIMPLY ADD OR DEDUCT SESSIONS PER A WEEK AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION DEPENDING ON HOW YOU FEEL.

LIKEWISE, DO NOT FORCE YOURSELF TO DO THE OPTIONAL WORK, JUST JUDGE IT ON THE FAY

I think on this program, most people will get where they want much faster after having built a fantastic base. I strongly dislike SS in its original template, and believe this not only better, but more fun. This also addresses the imbalances we see so often coming out of Rippetoes.

I wish to state one more time, for the beginner I think higher frequency is the absolute best to get those rapid changes. If after 3-5 months things slow down significantly, do whatever you want. Upper/lower, a full blown 5 day split, whatever. Either way, I think the work capacity you develop from training like this will aid you in whatever your goals are.

I also just turned 19. I feel old.
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Quality post and program, repped. In so I can find this later so I can try it with some people one day.

[buzzbot]

is mark a smart guy? sure. but the op of this thread totals more than him at a much younger age. as Jim Wendler has said, "I don't care how smart someone is. When I walk into a gym looking for advice, I'm not going to "pencil legs" over there squatting 95 lbs. I don't care what classes he's taken or what books he's read. I'm going to the other rack where guys are squatting 500. Sure they don't have all the answers but it's a start."

IMO if someone wants help reaching say a 350lbs squat, they have no reason to go to the 600lbs squatter before the 500lbs squatter. Both have surpassed the guys goal and the extra stuff the 600lbs squatter learned while going from 500lbs is irrelevant to the guy trying to reach 350lbs. That may not have made sense and I can't even tell if I'm agreeing with you. But there it is

[Oleg9]

can I run 5 days a week about 25-30 minutes while I'm on this program? Can it be bad for my recovery and perhaps my health?

[buzzbot]

can I run 5 days a week about 25-30 minutes while I'm on this program? Can it be bad for my recovery and perhaps my health?

Won't be bad for your health at all. I find cardio after leg training helps recovery. Although 5x/week even at moderate intensity will probably hurt your squat progression

[Farley1324]

can I run 5 days a week about 25-30 minutes while I'm on this program? Can it be bad for my recovery and perhaps my health?

You can do whatever you want.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea, but you can do it.

[babylover]

This thread will never die.

3.5 years later.

[Farley1324]

In after

[Francis333]

This thread will never die.

3.5 years later.

[poptarts]

lolno
The hamstrings do work during a squat.

I highly doubt anybody can get stronger and bigger hamstrings by doing squats.

IMO if someone wants help reaching say a 350lbs squat, they have no reason to go to the 600lbs squatter before the 500lbs squatter. Both have surpassed the guys goal and the extra stuff the 600lbs squatter learned while going from 500lbs is irrelevant to the guy trying to reach 350lbs. That may not have made sense and I can't even tell if I'm agreeing with you. But there it is

Strong weight correlation to math ratio analogy. Also banned.
Also @gbullock32 copypasta/10 122lbs of peace

[Bballer99]

If you want big, strong hamstrings, you deadlift. You don't squat for hamstrings. The squat emphasizes the quads and glutes, the deadlift emphasizes the hamstrings and glutes. A perfect couple <3

[poptarts]

If you want big, strong hamstrings, you deadlift. You don't squat for hamstrings. The squat emphasizes the quads and glutes, the deadlift emphasizes the hamstrings and glutes. A perfect couple <3

Deadlifts emphasize the lower back IMO

[Bballer99]

Deadlifts emphasize the lower back IMO

W/e, just do both and not one or the other for complete leg development.

[babylover]

Mirin my gym?

[Bballer99]

Mirin my gym?

BRB, selling all my belongings so I can move to Australia and somehow get to dat dere power gym.

[babylover]

Set up for a meet

[poptarts]

W/e, just do both and not one or the other for complete leg development.

True

Mirin my gym?

Looks legit srs

[babylover]

Calibrated Ivankos

[Francis333]

I highly doubt anybody can get stronger and bigger hamstrings by doing squats.

[Bballer99]

Squats only do so much for hamstrings brah, like how deadlifts only do so much for quads.

[Francis333]

Squats only do so much for hamstrings brah, like how deadlifts only do so much for quads.

Hamstrings=Hip extension

Especially if you're doing low bar, there is a ton of hip extension in the squat.

[Farley1324]

I highly doubt anybody can get stronger and bigger hamstrings by doing squats.

[img]http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/********/000/155/834/plz-stop-post.jpg[/img]

[poptarts]

Take a look at Maxx Chewning if you don't believe me. He has strong legs but no thickness or mass because he doesn't do the necessary accessory lifts needed to grow his hamstrings, quads, and calves e.g. leg curls, leg press, leg extension.

Squats only do so much for hamstrings brah, like how deadlifts only do so much for quads.

[Farley1324]

Take a look at Maxx Chewning if you don't believe me. He has strong legs but no thickness or mass because he doesn't do the necessary accessory lifts needed to grow his hamstrings, quads, and calves e.g. leg curls, leg press, leg extension.

You can grow your legs just fine on squats.

People who lack mass....ahem...mostly just need to eat more food

[poptarts]

You can grow your legs just fine on squats.

People who lack mass....ahem...mostly just need to eat more food

I think this discussion is primarily focused on growing hamstrings by doing squats. I'm aware a person can grow legs by doing squats but growing their hamstrings are a different thing.


*coughs* I'm on a lean bulk

[Farley1324]

I think this discussion is primarily focused on growing hamstrings by doing squats. I'm aware a person can grow legs by doing squats but growing their hamstrings are a different thing.

You should go up to the exercise section and ask if it's possible to grow your hamstrings with squats.

You're being told pretty universally otherwise down here in the teen section. That should tell you something.

[poptarts]

You should go up to the exercise section and ask if it's possible to grow your hamstrings with squats.

You're being told pretty universally otherwise down here in the teen section. That should tell you something.

I'm not changing my mind about how squats will not grow your hamstrings. Quads and glutes? Yeah.

The teen section will also tell you that if you want abs you shouldn't work on abs and do core lifts (bench, squat, deadlift, press).
That same section will also tell you that squats will increase testosterone.

[Farley1324]

I'm not changing my mind about how squats will not grow your hamstrings. Quads and glutes? Yeah.

The teen section will also tell you that if you want abs you shouldn't work on abs and do core lifts.
That same section will also tell you that squats will increase testosterone.

And yet even the teen section is getting squats and hamstrings right



This statement:

I highly doubt anybody can get stronger and bigger hamstrings by doing squats.

Is just ridiculous.

For the record.

[babylover]

Deadlifting 750x3.

[babylover]

Also. Squats are pretty ****ty for hamstrings.