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  1. #1
    Registered User jdyqf's Avatar
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    Madcow 5x5 Spreadsheet.

    I figure there might be many people looking for this, or if not, well here it is anyways. I used it, however, did not get the results I was looking for. Might not have focused well enough, but I think I just respond to different programs and also not squatting 3x a week. I might try it again, and switch up the lifts a little. But here it is.
    Attached Files
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

    Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161814243&p=1242966893#post1242966893
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  2. #2
    Registered User Gay4Moleman's Avatar
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    Is there any modification of 5x5 where the progression would be every two weeks or so? I was just thinking that as Madcow is +5lb/week and wendler +5lb/month, is there anything between?
    Raw gym PR's: 363/275/462 @ 220
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  3. #3
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    OP, madcows 5x5 is inappropriate for your numbers. Not surprised you had difficulty recovering from it/making progress.

    Originally Posted by Gay4Moleman View Post
    Is there any modification of 5x5 where the progression would be every two weeks or so? I was just thinking that as Madcow is +5lb/week and wendler +5lb/month, is there anything between?
    None that I know of, you could increase the "set interval" from 12.5% to 15% or drop squats from Wednesday thereby lowering volume or you could also reduce the progression from 2.5% to 1.25% although this is a hassle with the spreadsheet.

    Actually the progression for madcows 5x5 is 2.5% compounded weekly starting week 5 and the progression for 5/3/1 is 10lb for squat/deadlift and 5lb for bench press/press per month starting with a 10% deload.

    Shouldn't be a problem to go from madcows 5x5 to 5/3/1, just make sure to run it plenty before making the change to slower progression of 5/3/1.
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  4. #4
    Intense as fuk bro austin.j.taylor's Avatar
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    OP-I had good results going from madcows to 5/3/1. You could also run juggernaut if you like higher volume stuff
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  5. #5
    Registered User sharpguyjp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heavy_Beats View Post
    OP, madcows 5x5 is inappropriate for your numbers. Not surprised you had difficulty recovering from it/making progress.
    what numbers would you consider appropriate to run Madcow's, if i may ask?
    Current 3x5 rep as of Feb. 1st, 2011:
    Bench: 175
    Squat:225
    Dead:245
    Press:115

    Goal by start of college:
    Bench:225
    Squat:315
    Dead:405
    Press:135
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  6. #6
    Registered User jdyqf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heavy_Beats View Post
    OP, madcows 5x5 is inappropriate for your numbers. Not surprised you had difficulty recovering from it/making progress.



    None that I know of, you could increase the "set interval" from 12.5% to 15% or drop squats from Wednesday thereby lowering volume or you could also reduce the progression from 2.5% to 1.25% although this is a hassle with the spreadsheet.

    Actually the progression for madcows 5x5 is 2.5% compounded weekly starting week 5 and the progression for 5/3/1 is 10lb for squat/deadlift and 5lb for bench press/press per month starting with a 10% deload.

    Shouldn't be a problem to go from madcows 5x5 to 5/3/1, just make sure to run it plenty before making the change to slower progression of 5/3/1.
    is there any "popular" program that would fit my numbers. i am on a 6 week peaking cycle right now getting ready for the comp, but after i need to work my bench a lot. what do you think about board presses like on certain days to help on bench. and also what about just half-deads from ground then half way up. just wondering. but if any program which one. thanks.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

    Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161814243&p=1242966893#post1242966893
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    I figure there might be many people looking for this, or if not, well here it is anyways. I used it, however, did not get the results I was looking for. Might not have focused well enough, but I think I just respond to different programs and also not squatting 3x a week. I might try it again, and switch up the lifts a little. But here it is.
    You squat 375 but only dead 415?

    Anyways, look into Sheiko. I'm doing it now and I love it.
    Last edited by andom; 06-13-2011 at 04:08 PM.
    Never Give Up, Never Surrender.

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  8. #8
    Chalk whore simp3204's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    is there any "popular" program that would fit my numbers. i am on a 6 week peaking cycle right now getting ready for the comp, but after i need to work my bench a lot. what do you think about board presses like on certain days to help on bench. and also what about just half-deads from ground then half way up. just wondering. but if any program which one. thanks.
    The board presses will get you use to holding heavier weights, but they are really only meant to target your tri's. But you could just use a one board if about 1" off your chest is your problem area.
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  9. #9
    Banned Heavy_Beats's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    is there any "popular" program that would fit my numbers. i am on a 6 week peaking cycle right now getting ready for the comp, but after i need to work my bench a lot. what do you think about board presses like on certain days to help on bench. and also what about just half-deads from ground then half way up. just wondering. but if any program which one. thanks.
    5/3/1 is appropriate and popular. Sheiko is another option although I like how 5/3/1 has you trying to hit PRs in every session instead of maxing infrequently on Sheiko.

    Are you weak at lockout on bench press or weak off the floor on deadlifts. If there is no noticeable weakness I would just do the main lifts.

    If somehow as a raw lifter I had a weak lockout I would do some board press or floor press after the main bench work on 5/3/1. Adding board work to sheiko is a pain.

    Similar deal with deadlift to knees although I'd prefer to do deficit deadlifts.

    Originally Posted by sharpguyjp View Post
    what numbers would you consider appropriate to run Madcow's, if i may ask?
    When you can no longer progress on Starting Strength you will have your answer. I have seen a few guys get 130-140kg squat at the end of Starting Strength but you could be different.
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  10. #10
    Registered User jdyqf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heavy_Beats View Post
    5/3/1 is appropriate and popular. Sheiko is another option although I like how 5/3/1 has you trying to hit PRs in every session instead of maxing infrequently on Sheiko.

    Are you weak at lockout on bench press or weak off the floor on deadlifts. If there is no noticeable weakness I would just do the main lifts.

    If somehow as a raw lifter I had a weak lockout I would do some board press or floor press after the main bench work on 5/3/1. Adding board work to sheiko is a pain.

    Similar deal with deadlift to knees although I'd prefer to do deficit deadlifts.



    When you can no longer progress on Starting Strength you will have your answer. I have seen a few guys get 130-140kg squat at the end of Starting Strength but you could be different.
    First, not to you, but my deadlift max is now at about 435. so a little better.

    And now, to you. I think that my weakness on bench is of the chest mainly. i can lockout fine after i get it half way. and you think 5-3-1. i was looking into that. how intense is it. they long workouts. madcows was pretty short, and i think i respond better to longer programs, more intense, but i do like lifting heavy everytime i lift so.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    And now, to you. I think that my weakness on bench is of the chest mainly. i can lockout fine after i get it half way. and you think 5-3-1. i was looking into that. how intense is it. they long workouts. madcows was pretty short, and i think i respond better to longer programs, more intense, but i do like lifting heavy everytime i lift so.
    You don't need board press then. Pausing during bench press and doing more shoulder press helps with a weakness just off the chest.

    Last set is for max reps so it will always be heavy except for the deload. You could do a 5/3/1 session in under 20 minutes or add as much accessory work as your work capacity allows. If it interferes with progress you would have to cut back on accessory work though.
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  12. #12
    Registered User jdyqf's Avatar
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    how many times for each exercise a week. i would like to do more than one time a week, but i guess whatever works.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Strength Enthusiast Retardo-pex's Avatar
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    I'm still not sure how 5x5 is not appropriate based on those numbers. Those basic numbers are the time when I made the most progress on 5x5, at about the same size as the op as well.
    Current Bests (raw/singleply)

    Squat- 435 / 512.5
    Bench- 280 / 308.5
    Deadlift- 495/ 534

    Goals:

    - Squat 500, Bench 325, Deadlift 550 raw at 181-220.

    - Give the recreational bodybuilder thing a solid effort.
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  14. #14
    Registered User jdyqf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retardo-pex View Post
    I'm still not sure how 5x5 is not appropriate based on those numbers. Those basic numbers are the time when I made the most progress on 5x5, at about the same size as the op as well.
    I am not exactly sure either. Regardless, it did not work so well for me. Everybody is different. I tried doing the best I could. Never gave up, but just didn't work for me. Like i said, I think high intensity is better for me, and that is what I am doing now. So we will see.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Originally Posted by Retardo-pex View Post
    I'm still not sure how 5x5 is not appropriate based on those numbers. Those basic numbers are the time when I made the most progress on 5x5, at about the same size as the op as well.
    This is the best advice in this thread. Do this.
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by dtaps24 View Post
    This is the best advice in this thread. Do this.
    I am not gonna do this. He may be right. My numbers may be right for the program. But it did not work for me. My deadlift gain 10 lbs on the max and bench went no where when squat stayed the same as well. But he may be right, however it just didnt work for me
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by Retardo-pex View Post
    I'm still not sure how 5x5 is not appropriate based on those numbers. Those basic numbers are the time when I made the most progress on 5x5, at about the same size as the op as well.
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  18. #18
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    I understand that it will work for lifts like mine. But even so, I am not repeating something that did not work. I am gonna try something new after this 6 week peaking cycle.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Yeah, I give up. I like it when people ask questions and then say "I don't wanna do that, I wanna do this," it's funny. So here you go cupcake, since you've got it all figured out: do whatever the hell you want. Obviously it's working. Hell, do something like Sheiko, I read an interview where Boris Sheiko said that his cycles were drawn up largely with 20 year old unenhanced kids with 1,000 lbs. totals in mind, and it was just a coincidence that they had good carryover for Elite lifters on sterones. Have you noticed that less and less of the better lifters on this board are responding to your threads, and whne they do it is largely to rage? Do you ever wonder why that is?
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    Originally Posted by dtaps24 View Post
    Yeah, I give up. I like it when people ask questions and then say "I don't wanna do that, I wanna do this," it's funny. So here you go cupcake, since you've got it all figured out: do whatever the hell you want. Obviously it's working. Hell, do something like Sheiko, I read an interview where Boris Sheiko said that his cycles were drawn up largely with 20 year old unenhanced kids with 1,000 lbs. totals in mind, and it was just a coincidence that they had good carryover for Elite lifters on sterones. Have you noticed that less and less of the better lifters on this board are responding to your threads, and whne they do it is largely to rage? Do you ever wonder why that is?
    I really don't care. You are telling me to do something that didn't ****ing work for me. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would I do that? Maybe it didn't work the first round. Ok, well that is probably not the case. I am tired of you and all others telling me stuff that makes no sense. Yes, I understand that it works for some. But it didn't work for me. So I am not gonna do it. I will find something that works for me, and then I will continue to do it. End of story.

    Note: You lifts aren't so impressive for being a 36 year old, weighing 200+ lbs.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    I really don't care. You are telling me to do something that didn't ****ing work for me. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would I do that? Maybe it didn't work the first round. Ok, well that is probably not the case. I am tired of you and all others telling me stuff that makes no sense. Yes, I understand that it works for some. But it didn't work for me. So I am not gonna do it. I will find something that works for me, and then I will continue to do it. End of story.

    Note: You lifts aren't so impressive for being a 36 year old, weighing 200+ lbs.
    Lashing out at someone who is trying to help is a great indication of perhaps why one cycle on a basic program didn't work for ya.
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    Originally Posted by lts1ow View Post
    Lashing out at someone who is trying to help is a great indication of perhaps why one cycle on a basic program didn't work for ya.
    I said thanks for all the comments and advice, and then he had to come back on the forum and put how idiotic I was for not listening. Lashing out, or just stating my opinion. Hmm. I feel like everyone is just against me for some reason. Not sure what. Don't say I don't listen. I listen and consider everything that is said to me. And if I disagree with it, then I am not the pussy that is just gonna sit there and not say anything back. I will tell you why I disagree with it. And then once I do that, everyone thinks I am an idiot.
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    I really don't care. You are telling me to do something that didn't ****ing work for me. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would I do that? Maybe it didn't work the first round. Ok, well that is probably not the case. I am tired of you and all others telling me stuff that makes no sense. Yes, I understand that it works for some. But it didn't work for me. So I am not gonna do it. I will find something that works for me, and then I will continue to do it. End of story.

    Note: You lifts aren't so impressive for being a 36 year old, weighing 200+ lbs.
    No little boy, just no. You're right my lifts aren't great, but my total is @ 360 lbs. higher than yours and the gap is growing, that should tell you something. It won't because you're retarded and all, but it should.

    And FTR, I didn't tell you to do jack****, you had received good advice from solid lifters and bad advice from someone with a total that is close to your own (in other words horrible). Since I know you're kinda slow I tried to point out what was good advice and what was not. I did this despite being told by people that you are a punk kid who is either too arrogant or too stupid to recognize or listen to solid advice.

    I appear to have wasted my time. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So, carry on with your powerlifting for dummies questions like "How do I break in my belt" and "what should I eat to get big and strong" and I will not bother you with real responses ever again, I may however make fun of you.
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    Originally Posted by lts1ow View Post
    Lashing out at someone who is trying to help is a great indication of perhaps why one cycle on a basic program didn't work for ya.
    This.
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    Originally Posted by dtaps24 View Post
    No little boy, just no. You're right my lifts aren't great, but my total is @ 360 lbs. higher than yours and the gap is growing, that should tell you something. It won't because you're retarded and all, but it should.

    And FTR, I didn't tell you to do jack****, you had received good advice from solid lifters and bad advice from someone with a total that is close to your own (in other words horrible). Since I know you're kinda slow I tried to point out what was good advice and what was not. I did this despite being told by people that you are a punk kid who is either too arrogant or too stupid to recognize or listen to solid advice.

    I appear to have wasted my time. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So, carry on with your powerlifting for dummies questions like "How do I break in my belt" and "what should I eat to get big and strong" and I will not bother you with real responses ever again, I may however make fun of you.
    I wouldn't consider myself stupid really. 3.2 GPA in Mechanical Engineering degree. Also, I wouldn't consider my lifts "horrible". Yeah they are not the best, but thats fine they are growing, AND QUICKER THAN YOURS. We will see how much this "gap" grows. LOL. Your 36, you have 15 years on me. Come on, you should be way more advanced than me. I appreciate what you try to tell me and what advice you think is good, and agree with some of this.

    However, you need to tell me something. If you worked out on Madcow's for 10 weeks, and stayed at the same max on bench and squat, and your deadlift only went up 10 lbs, would you continue doing that program or try something different. Answer honestly please

    Originally Posted by andom View Post
    This.
    ok
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post

    However, you need to tell me something. If you worked out on Madcow's for 10 weeks, and stayed at the same max on bench and squat, and your deadlift only went up 10 lbs, would you continue doing that program or try something different. Answer honestly please
    Point is, what do you think some other program will magically do for you?

    If you can't do the lifts, switching programs a million times a month isn't gonna do it for you.
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    Originally Posted by lts1ow View Post
    Point is, what do you think some other program will magically do for you?

    If you can't do the lifts, switching programs a million times a month isn't gonna do it for you.
    This. Again. There is no magic program.
    Never Give Up, Never Surrender.

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    Originally Posted by lts1ow View Post
    Point is, what do you think some other program will magically do for you?

    If you can't do the lifts, switching programs a million times a month isn't gonna do it for you.
    I was on the program for 10 weeks though more than enough time. Its not like I quit the program. And maybe I just did not respond to the program and I will to some other one. You can't honestly tell me that you haven't switched to a different program when you weren't getting anything on another.....
    PR's: 365 | 280 | 500 = 1145 lbs

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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    I wouldn't consider myself stupid really. 3.2 GPA in Mechanical Engineering degree. Also, I wouldn't consider my lifts "horrible". Yeah they are not the best, but thats fine they are growing, AND QUICKER THAN YOURS. We will see how much this "gap" grows. LOL. Your 36, you have 15 years on me. Come on, you should be way more advanced than me. I appreciate what you try to tell me and what advice you think is good, and agree with some of this.

    However, you need to tell me something. If you worked out on Madcow's for 10 weeks, and stayed at the same max on bench and squat, and your deadlift only went up 10 lbs, would you continue doing that program or try something different. Answer honestly please
    I hope that they are growing quicker than mine, I really do, but just a heads up that I've put @ 85 lbs. on my deadlift since the beginning of the year and 40-50 on my squat, you seem an alright guy but sometimes a little too quick with your responses, I do the same. Honestly, I would not stay with Madcow's, but that would largely be because I have horrible programming ADD which has cost me a great deal of progress over the past 2 years (which is when I stopped training like an idiot and started training for powerlifting), so take what I would do with a grain of salt.

    That said, most of what I was responding to was this concept that Madcow's somehow wouldn't or couldn't work at your numbers, the intermediate 5x5 is probably ideal at your numbers, if you don't want to do it you shouldn't though because you want to enjoy lifting. My point is don't jump off the program appropo of nothing. Give something else a try, if you have the time, try Sheiko as it seems like it would be fun to put that kind of time into the gym and you're the right age. I have no issue with you taking a look at what you are doing and making an informed decision, that is smart, but it helps to know you've considered everything not just "I don't wanna do this anymore."
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    Originally Posted by jdyqf View Post
    I wouldn't consider myself stupid really. 3.2 GPA in Mechanical Engineering degree. Also, I wouldn't consider my lifts "horrible". Yeah they are not the best, but thats fine they are growing, AND QUICKER THAN YOURS. We will see how much this "gap" grows. LOL. Your 36, you have 15 years on me. Come on, you should be way more advanced than me. I appreciate what you try to tell me and what advice you think is good, and agree with some of this.

    However, you need to tell me something. If you worked out on Madcow's for 10 weeks, and stayed at the same max on bench and squat, and your deadlift only went up 10 lbs, would you continue doing that program or try something different. Answer honestly please
    A quick look at your log says that you started Madcows on April 25th. So at best, you've been on it 7 weeks. It also indicates that by week 4, you had increased your 5rm on all of your lifts. How is this a failure?

    You're also very quick to assume that if there is a failure, it's the program. Also as evidenced by your log, you're working long days this summer. I'm guessing that your rest and nutrition are less than optimal. That means your recovery is less than optimal. Are you sleeping 8+ hours a night? Are you eating at a calorie excess? Did you gain any weight during your five weeks on the program? If you answered "no" to any of these questions, this could be an indication of the problem.

    It seems kind of presumptuous to take a max you did while (I'm assuming) you were in school, not working full-time, and probably deloaded and try to compare them to maxes you did after five weeks of a relatively high-volume program, with no deload, while working full-time, and then assume that "the program didn't work". Nine times out of ten, if the program didn't work, it's user error, not the program.

    Also consider that if you have reached a point in your training to where your numbers are "too good" to make progress on a program such as 5x5, that you're not going to make fast progress anymore, no matter what program you do. A 10-pound gain on any raw lift in 5 weeks is pretty outstanding once you're past the point of noob gains. If you could keep that pace up permanently, your total would be going up hundreds of pounds a year. It just doesn't happen.

    Now, I'm not going to take a hard-line stance and say "GO BACK ON 5x5". But, before you embark on something new, take a good hard look at the past few months of your training, nutrition, rest, work, and lifestyle in general. Chances are good that if you're honest with yourself, you'll find the real problem.
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