Raw powerlifting=Inevitable hernia? (no broscience) (cliffs at the bottom)

[Schism45]

A powerlifting buddy of mine, 20 years old, very recently herniated a disc in his back. His squat and deadlift form was as solid as anyone I've ever seen. This prompted the creation of this thread.

Looking around this forum and the journals I see a lot of people working through injuries, particularly lower back injuries. We recently saw the departure of Blenderate for this very reason, and have seen other major figures on this board face back issues as well (Newbtime is another recent example). It makes me wonder - does raw powerlifting guarantee an eventual hernia?

I used to give a "lol, no" when people would ask me this, but now I'm not sure. I was talking to a strength and conditioning coach (intelligent guy, not one of your standard PT broscientists). He said that a PL-style raw squat guarantees a slightly rounded back at the bottom no matter what the weight is.

I argued back that I've seen vids of guys squatting deep with perfect arches. He said "was that the chinese oly lifters vid from the arnold?" (it was). He said big difference - those guys have perfect squat leverages, are wearing oly shoes and are doing high bar squats. He was right.

Lifting with a rounded back will eventually produce a back injury (over years of lifting). It appears that a raw PL-style squat cannot maintain an arch and go to depth unless you lift in the SPF. Coupled with the injuries that populate this forum... it seems to lead to the conclusion that raw powerlifting will inevitably produce a hernia.

Having had a minor back issue myself after squatting for a year with a buttwink, I spent several months stretching hard and working hard on my form trying to achieve a squat that maintains an arch the whole way down. I have great squat leverages and still couldn't do it.

I've loved powerlifting these last two years but am not willing to endure serious permanent injuries for it. I'm pretty close to giving up squats and becoming a standard gym brah but would love for someone to show me that I'm wrong.

Cliffs:
-PL brah of mine in RL got a hernia (he was 20)
-I noticed lots of injuries in this forum/journal section, particularly back injuries
-Strength coach tells me a PL-style raw squat to depth (no SPF) will inevitably round the lower back due to the mechanics of the lift
-I argue back citing youtube vids and am wrong
-I try for several months to prove him wrong and fail
-Prolonged squatting with a rounded back=eventual hernia, PL style raw squat inevitably=rounded back. Raw powerlifting=inevitable hernia?

[sirwazzles]

If raw powerlifting always led to hernias, every raw lifter would get one at some point in their career. This hasn't and will never happen. Some will get them, some won't. /thread. Raw powerlifting =/= inevitable hernia.

[SophieM]

Are you talking hernia or a herniated disc?

Either way, like sirwazzles said, not every raw PL'er gets them, so it can't ALWAYS lead to them.

That being said, I have a hiatal hernia, though I doubt it's from PL'ing. I also have a back injury due to child abuse so that I CANNOT physically round my back and probably won't unless I do some extreme stretching, which I don't plan on doing as it's rather painful.

[Schism45]

If raw powerlifting always led to hernias, every raw lifter would get one at some point in their career. This hasn't and will never happen. Some will get them, some won't. /thread. Raw powerlifting =/= inevitable hernia.

The point is the degree to which raw powerlifting raises one's risk for a hernia, not the specific word "inevitable".

But while you're offering, I'd love examples of guys who lifted raw for 10-15+ years, squatting heavy, who never had serious back injuries. I sure can't find any. You can't point to 20 year old lifters or guys early in their career and use them as examples - Blenderate's a great example of why. You also can't use geared lifters because the gear helps the most at the point of greatest vulnerability for the lower back - the very bottom of the lift.

Are you talking hernia or a herniated disc?

Either way, like sirwazzles said, not every raw PL'er gets them, so it can't ALWAYS lead to them.

That being said, I have a hiatal hernia, though I doubt it's from PL'ing. I also have a back injury due to child abuse so that I CANNOT physically round my back and probably won't unless I do some extreme stretching, which I don't plan on doing as it's rather painful.

Sorry, I meant herniated disc, although I would extend that to any sort of serious, permanent back injury.

[koyongi]

How would raw powerlifting be any different than geared powerlifting? Your back is in the same position and under the same stress, if not moreso. If you don't believe me, put on a squat suit and see how your back feels at the bottom of the squat - it's under way more stress than when you're squatting raw.

Either way, you can find plenty of examples of lifters who have been at it for a while and have never had back injuries, myself included. Besides Newbtime and Blenderate (who, not to be insulting, neither of which have had much longevity in the sport yet), who have you found that has had serious back injuries, specifically herniated disks?

[Torrtrefireto]

I fail to see how a low-bar squat wearing oly shoes forces one to round their back to break the plane. If you mean the low bar chuck tailor feet 12 feet apart squats, then maybe

I see just as much butt winking with high bar squats, actually

[simp3204]

How would raw powerlifting be any different than geared powerlifting? Your back is in the same position and under the same stress, if not moreso. If you don't believe me, put on a squat suit and see how your back feels at the bottom of the squat - it's under way more stress than when you're squatting raw.

Either way, you can find plenty of examples of lifters who have been at it for a while and have never had back injuries, myself included. Besides Newbtime and Blenderate (who, not to be insulting, neither of which have had much longevity in the sport yet), who have you found that has had serious back injuries, specifically herniated disks?

I fail to see how a low-bar squat wearing oly shoes forces one to round their back to break the plane. If you mean the low bar chuck tailor feet 12 feet apart squats, then maybe

I see just as much butt winking with high bar squats, actually

These, without empirical evidence to what you claim simply means it = broscience.

If I speed in my car every time I drive my car is it inevitable that I will crash?

No.

If I drive the speed limit in my car every time I drive my car is it inevitable that I will not crash?

No.

[Newbtime]

Looking around this forum and the journals I see a lot of people working through injuries, particularly lower back injuries. We recently saw the departure of Blenderate for this very reason, and have seen other major figures on this board face back issues as well (Newbtime is another recent example).

I don't have a herniated disc, and never did. I had a small bulged disc in my thoracic from training my squat too hard, and letting my upper back cave. It has healed 100%.


My lower back strain was muscular.


As far as not being able to maintain an arch squatting deep...





also; I had the same issue with my upper back when i was like 16 or 17. It just healed up quicker then because I was way weaker. Bad things can happen if you let your form break consistently.

[BEhave]

http://www.rebuildyourback.com/herniated-disc/pain.php

that link I posted shows that a lot of people who ahve disc problems don't have symptoms of back pain. My point? Some of the people who you describe may have different reasons that caused the back pain. I'm sure if many people on this board were to have mri's, they would show herniated discs even if these people have no pain. Herniated discs does not equal lower back pain.

As far as back pain, avoid situps. There I said it. The back is not made to flex like thatand I'm sure weighted situps/crunches have as much to do with back pain as slouching posture for 8 hours sitting at work as well as slouching in everyday life. Not only that, crunches and situps don't train the back the abs the way they are used. They are used as anti rotators, stabilizers and to transfer forces, situps/crunches don't train your abs for that. Doing heavy squats and deadlifts isn't enough either for your abs, they work primarily your lower back. don't believe me? Look at this study

http://www.strengthcoach.com/mcbride...techniques.pdf

Apparantely a plank works your external obliques and rectus abdominis more than a REALLY heavy squat.

I know it's only one study, but there hasn't been many done on this subject.

What that guy said about oly lifters is right. They also have the perfect balance between lower back and glute strength (inb4 bro science).

I will say this, not everybody is capable of BACK squatting properly. You may not feel pain now, but it will get you down the line. This is why programs where the squat variations are rotated are so good. It's also why I think people should take some time off of heavy lifting every once in a while. I'm sure the greats had periods when they were just lifting in the higher rep ranges during the year and dropped the rep range when comps were coming (they were running cycles of God knows what though, so I gues it's unfair to even mention them)

Anyways, heres an article detailing HOW to fix the butt wink:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_..._squatters&cr=

It's under tip 1.

if you can back squat properly, they are fine.

[Aaron47pb]

lol no

This is a perfect example of broscience.

[PinkDumbells]

We recently saw the departure of Blenderate for this very reason,

I argued back that I've seen vids of guys squatting deep with perfect arches. He said "was that the chinese oly lifters vid from the arnold?" (it was). He said big difference - those guys have perfect squat leverages, are wearing oly shoes and are doing high bar squats. He was right.

Blenderate's a great example of why.

Except that Blenderate squats high bar...

[Newbtime]

IMO injuries happen for a reason, and usually that reason is a muscular weak point causing breaks in form.


I was negligent, and ignored what my body was telling me. I got bitch slapped with an injury that took 3+ months to heal..... that doesn't mean squatting was the cause.

As far as andy's back issues, I think his back was much weaker than his legs. He didn't seem to train his deadlift or back nearly as much as he would squat. His deadlifts were grinders from start to finish because he would just round more and more to get it going.

[Heavy_Beats]

Biased Sample.

Just because something happens to one of your bros and it happens to lots of bros on the internet does not mean it is going to inevitably happen to everyone.

Same as claiming all powerlifters are fat or that woman that lift weights will inevitably look like that multiply roiding chick with 18" arms.

[joelash302]

By age 40, over 50% of the population have at least 1 herniated disc. By 65 it's almost 100%. So statistically, everyone will inevitably develop a hernia at some point in their life.

[CURT200]

I can't believe i wasted five minutes of my life to read this post... that is five minutes of my life i could be squatting or drinking and i wasted it, gee thanx OP

[Boridi]

Yeah, it's impossible to get injured when you're wrapped up in tight polyester.

edit: A hernia is not the same thing as a herniated disc. lulz

[BombDonald]

I was born with a hernia. Srs.

[Mike Zero]

Got a few hernias now I think lol.

No herniated disks.

[C0bra]

I am glad you showed us some studies and actual research to back up your claims instead of just making a thread based on conclusions you came up with after your buddy got a hernia.



























oh wait........

[ByronOrpheus]

Except that Blenderate squats high bar...

This^^^



I don't think Blenderate had a herniated disc either, he had a compressed disc (or something like that), basically he was too strong for his bones, that's what I took away from all that. 2 of his vertebrae and one of his elbows couldn't deal with him being such a beast so they started to mutate/deteriorate.

If you're convinced of everything you said OP, start squatting high bar and get some oly shoes and then laugh at all of us when we break our backs.

[batmanman]

Ive squattex for 7 years without an injury

Therefore noone who raw squats will get an injury

[Retardo-pex]

A powerlifting buddy of mine, 20 years old, very recently herniated a disc in his back. His squat and deadlift form was as solid as anyone I've ever seen. This prompted the creation of this thread.

Looking around this forum and the journals I see a lot of people working through injuries, particularly lower back injuries. We recently saw the departure of Blenderate for this very reason, and have seen other major figures on this board face back issues as well (Newbtime is another recent example). It makes me wonder - does raw powerlifting guarantee an eventual hernia?

I used to give a "lol, no" when people would ask me this, but now I'm not sure. I was talking to a strength and conditioning coach (intelligent guy, not one of your standard PT broscientists). He said that a PL-style raw squat guarantees a slightly rounded back at the bottom no matter what the weight is.

I argued back that I've seen vids of guys squatting deep with perfect arches. He said "was that the chinese oly lifters vid from the arnold?" (it was). He said big difference - those guys have perfect squat leverages, are wearing oly shoes and are doing high bar squats. He was right.

Lifting with a rounded back will eventually produce a back injury (over years of lifting). It appears that a raw PL-style squat cannot maintain an arch and go to depth unless you lift in the SPF. Coupled with the injuries that populate this forum... it seems to lead to the conclusion that raw powerlifting will inevitably produce a hernia.

Having had a minor back issue myself after squatting for a year with a buttwink, I spent several months stretching hard and working hard on my form trying to achieve a squat that maintains an arch the whole way down. I have great squat leverages and still couldn't do it.

I've loved powerlifting these last two years but am not willing to endure serious permanent injuries for it. I'm pretty close to giving up squats and becoming a standard gym brah but would love for someone to show me that I'm wrong.

Cliffs:
-PL brah of mine in RL got a hernia (he was 20)
-I noticed lots of injuries in this forum/journal section, particularly back injuries
-Strength coach tells me a PL-style raw squat to depth (no SPF) will inevitably round the lower back due to the mechanics of the lift
-I argue back citing youtube vids and am wrong
-I try for several months to prove him wrong and fail
-Prolonged squatting with a rounded back=eventual hernia, PL style raw squat inevitably=rounded back. Raw powerlifting=inevitable hernia?

Well seeing as you got all your info from bros I don't see how this isn't broscience. Your chances of injury will always be higher is you are a competitive athlete, it doesn't make specific injuries inevitible. You are a lot more likely to roll your ankle playing basketball then powerlifting, but that doesn't mean no powerlifter has ever rolled their ankle or no basketball player has ever gone a whole career ankle roll free.

[DuracellBunny]

But while you're offering, I'd love examples of guys who lifted raw for 10-15+ years, squatting heavy, who never had serious back injuries.

I first competed in 1994 and although I'm not competing these days I still squat 600lbs+ without a belt. I've never had any back injuries.

You wanted an example, there's one for you.

[rwsmith3623]

These, without empirical evidence to what you claim simply means it = broscience.

If I speed in my car every time I drive my car is it inevitable that I will crash?

No.

If I drive the speed limit in my car every time I drive my car is it inevitable that I will not crash?

No

bro you forgot the period after your second 'no'.

[AmericanPhysco]

I got a hernia from reading op's post.

[IronAbrams]

Couldn't change it eh? Wasn't terribly hard for me.

[rwsmith3623]

Couldn't change it eh? Wasn't terribly hard for me.

impressive.





however, this thread was a complete waste of time and failed to produce even one valid point or reference of proof to OP's claims. why am i even posting in here?

[DanielBeauchamp]

Let's think about all this rationally for a second:

Powerlifters are putting hundreds (sometimes thousands!) of pounds of solid iron on their backs, sitting down with it, and standing back up every day. They're holding hundreds of pounds over their ****ing rib cages and pushing it up and away from them; they're walking up to hundreds of pounds of iron and attempting to heave it up off the floor.

Do you really think that you're NOT going to get hurt at some point? You will hurt one day.

The idea is to push past that hurt and get even stronger for it. Every champion has had to do this. It's like a test of pain, if you will.

I'm lucky so far in that I haven't sustained any serious injury beyond a back hurt that put me out for 3 weeks, but if I do get hurt one day there's no way it'll stop me. Maybe if I'm a paraplegic, but not before then. (and there's always the neck harness)

[sirwazzles]

Maybe if I'm a paraplegic, but not before then. (and there's always the neck harness)

... and also the bench.

[DanielBeauchamp]

... and also the bench.

Wat?

Paraplegic = no limbs