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Thread: Fats vs. Carbs

  1. #1
    Registered User jpzsports's Avatar
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    Question Fats vs. Carbs

    I've been getting a little confused with comparing fats vs. protein vs calorie intake. Some say weight gain is purely caused by a surplus of calories. While I agree partially, I also feel like it depends on where those calories come from.

    Do foods that are high in fat cause weight gain because they are high in fat, or just because they tend to also be high in calories? I know that 1 gram of fat has 9 calories vs 1 gram of protein/carbs has 4.

    Let's say someone at a 2000 calorie diet of pure protein and another person ate pure fat. They're both the same calories, but wouldn't the protein one lead to more muscle and a leaner body? And wouldn't the fat diet lead to a higher body fat % ?

    And lastly, many people are saying how a diet high in carbs is what is really causing obesity, etc. Because too many carbs ends up being converted to fat. I agree, but shouldn't fats still be kept somewhat low (besides healthy fats) since fat is already fat? So it's basically the same as a carb that's been converted already.

    Does fat make you fat or is it purely calorie surplus that does?
    Can a diet high in protein lead to fat gain just as much as an identical calorie diet of fats/carbs? It seems like that's what the "calorie surplus people" are saying but it seems hard for me to fully agree...

    Thanks for any input
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    Dietary fat does not make you fat...

    Surplus of calories makes you gain weight.


    Carbs may make you hold more water weight, but temporarily
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    Cals in cals out...

    I'd say the correlation is that higher fat items tend to be higher in cals due to the 9 cals/g thing. They're more calorically dense and people that don't track cals will likely eat more of it to feel satisfied/full. Ex: 1 TBSP of PB is 100 cals, 2 NLEA servings of broccoli is 100 cals. I know I DEFINITELY wouldn't feel full or satisfied with that tiny amt of pb, but probably a little more so with the volume/fiber of the broccoli. (and yes...these are just my idea of extreme examples)

    If you eat more cals then you burn, you'll gain weight. Doesn't matter what they're from...
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    Specific food selections are not relevant to bodyweight and body composition outside the context of daily nutrition.

    Rather, the diet's contribution to bodyweight is dependent on caloric balance and the diet's contribution to body composition is dependent on micro/macronutrient sufficiency.

    =)
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    Originally Posted by jpzsports View Post
    I've been getting a little confused with comparing fats vs. protein vs calorie intake. Some say weight gain is purely caused by a surplus of calories. While I agree partially, I also feel like it depends on where those calories come from.

    Do foods that are high in fat cause weight gain because they are high in fat, or just because they tend to also be high in calories? I know that 1 gram of fat has 9 calories vs 1 gram of protein/carbs has 4.

    Let's say someone at a 2000 calorie diet of pure protein and another person ate pure fat. They're both the same calories, but wouldn't the protein one lead to more muscle and a leaner body? And wouldn't the fat diet lead to a higher body fat % ?

    And lastly, many people are saying how a diet high in carbs is what is really causing obesity, etc. Because too many carbs ends up being converted to fat. I agree, but shouldn't fats still be kept somewhat low (besides healthy fats) since fat is already fat? So it's basically the same as a carb that's been converted already.

    Does fat make you fat or is it purely calorie surplus that does?
    Can a diet high in protein lead to fat gain just as much as an identical calorie diet of fats/carbs? It seems like that's what the "calorie surplus people" are saying but it seems hard for me to fully agree...

    Thanks for any input
    High carb diets will make your body store more fat.

    Some fats cause obesity, some fats fight it. Dietary fats like saturated and monounsaturated fats promote health and weight loss. Partially hydrogenated oils and vegetable oils = bad for health and weight loss.

    A high protein diet has been shown in studies to lead to fat gain just like a high carb diet, because too much protein at a meal can trigger insulin. So you have to be careful to eat just the right amount of protein needed for your activity (ie. lifters would eat more).
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    Originally Posted by Joseph1990 View Post
    Specific food selections are not relevant to bodyweight and body composition outside the context of daily nutrition.

    Rather, the diet's contribution to bodyweight is dependent on caloric balance and the diet's contribution to body composition is dependent on micro/macronutrient sufficiency.

    =)
    Now that sounded IDENTICAL to a WonderPug post lol (you copy pasting his posts )
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    High carb diets will make your body store more fat.

    Some fats cause obesity, some fats fight it. Dietary fats like saturated and monounsaturated fats promote health and weight loss. Partially hydrogenated oils and vegetable oils = bad for health and weight loss.

    A high protein diet has been shown in studies to lead to fat gain just like a high carb diet, because too much protein at a meal can trigger insulin. So you have to be careful to eat just the right amount of protein needed for your activity (ie. lifters would eat more).
    Pretty much everything you said here is wrong, extra spicy broscience in bold.
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    Originally Posted by jpzsports View Post
    Does fat make you fat or is it purely calorie surplus that does?
    Can a diet high in protein lead to fat gain just as much as an identical calorie diet of fats/carbs?
    Essentially, yes. It's all about calories in vs calories out if all you're talking about bodyweight. Body composition is another story.

    Let's take the simplest situation for example. Let's say someone has a maintenance level of 2000 calories and isn't working out. So anything below 2000 calories and they would lose weight while anything above 2000 calories they would gain weight. Makes sense right?

    Now let's look at body composition. What I stated above is purely for overall weight gain. I was not targeting fat or muscle specifically. This is where macros come into play. You're body composition will be dependent on your macro nutrients.

    Let's take the same example above as the simplest case. A person has a maintenance level of 2000 calories and does not work out. Now let's first look at the situation of eating under 2000 calories. Relating back to your question, let's look at two situations:
    1. This person eats 1500 calories of pure protein.
    2. This person eats 1500 calories of fats and carbs.
    In both situations the person will lose weigh because they are under 2000 calories. But of course in situation 1 the person will retain more muscle mass since your body needs protein to survive and in situation 2 the only source of protein would be to break down muscle. I'm not sure about using protein as an energy source when carbs or fat aren't present so I won't touch on that, but you see what I'm saying.

    Now lets look at the situation of eating over 2000 calories.
    1. This person eats 2500 calories of pure protein.
    2. This person eats 2500 calories of fats and carbs.
    Now in both cases the person will gain weight because they are over 2500 calories. But in situation 2, the person may still experience muscle loss while gaining fat since they aren't eating the protein their body needs.

    I hope some of this was helpful because I didn't want to make any accusations I'm unsure of. What it boils down to is this:

    -Focus on calories in vs calories out
    -Focus on macros because you're body needs all three macros: carbs, fats and protein.
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    Originally Posted by sciup View Post
    Essentially, yes. It's all about calories in vs calories out if all you're talking about bodyweight. Body composition is another story.

    Let's take the simplest situation for example. Let's say someone has a maintenance level of 2000 calories and isn't working out. So anything below 2000 calories and they would lose weight while anything above 2000 calories they would gain weight. Makes sense right?

    Now let's look at body composition. What I stated above is purely for overall weight gain. I was not targeting fat or muscle specifically. This is where macros come into play. You're body composition will be dependent on your macro nutrients.

    Let's take the same example above as the simplest case. A person has a maintenance level of 2000 calories and does not work out. Now let's first look at the situation of eating under 2000 calories. Relating back to your question, let's look at two situations:
    1. This person eats 1500 calories of pure protein.
    2. This person eats 1500 calories of fats and carbs.
    In both situations the person will lose weigh because they are under 2000 calories. But of course in situation 1 the person will retain more muscle mass since your body needs protein to survive and in situation 2 the only source of protein would be to break down muscle. I'm not sure about using protein as an energy source when carbs or fat aren't present so I won't touch on that, but you see what I'm saying.

    Now lets look at the situation of eating over 2000 calories.
    1. This person eats 2500 calories of pure protein.
    2. This person eats 2500 calories of fats and carbs.
    Now in both cases the person will gain weight because they are over 2500 calories. But in situation 2, the person may still experience muscle loss while gaining fat since they aren't eating the protein their body needs.

    Your example however is entirely hypothetical as no one is going to drink lard and eat pure sugar for their calories
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    Originally Posted by sciup View Post
    essentially, yes. It's all about calories in vs calories out if all you're talking about bodyweight. Body composition is another story.

    Let's take the simplest situation for example. Let's say someone has a maintenance level of 2000 calories and isn't working out. So anything below 2000 calories and they would lose weight while anything above 2000 calories they would gain weight. Makes sense right?

    Now let's look at body composition. What i stated above is purely for overall weight gain. I was not targeting fat or muscle specifically. This is where macros come into play. You're body composition will be dependent on your macro nutrients.

    Let's take the same example above as the simplest case. A person has a maintenance level of 2000 calories and does not work out. Now let's first look at the situation of eating under 2000 calories. Relating back to your question, let's look at two situations:
    1. This person eats 1500 calories of pure protein.
    2. This person eats 1500 calories of fats and carbs.
    In both situations the person will lose weigh because they are under 2000 calories. But of course in situation 1 the person will retain more muscle mass since your body needs protein to survive and in situation 2 the only source of protein would be to break down muscle. I'm not sure about using protein as an energy source when carbs or fat aren't present so i won't touch on that, but you see what i'm saying.

    Now lets look at the situation of eating over 2000 calories.
    1. This person eats 2500 calories of pure protein.
    2. This person eats 2500 calories of fats and carbs.
    Now in both cases the person will gain weight because they are over 2500 calories. But in situation 2, the person may still experience muscle loss while gaining fat since they aren't eating the protein their body needs.

    I hope some of this was helpful because i didn't want to make any accusations i'm unsure of. What it boils down to is this:

    -focus on calories in vs calories out
    -focus on macros because you're body needs all three macros: Carbs, fats and protein.
    non-realistic ultra-hypothetical's have no place in intelligent discussion

    please for ****'s sake stop
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    Thank you all for the replies! There's some conflicting views but I'm starting to get a better understanding.

    It seems like basically, all calories are the same insofar as His WEIGHT will not change (in the case of comparing two different diets with the same amount of calories). The same cannot be said for other factors, like body composition and health.

    Also, taking a good excerpt from this article: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa16.htm

    Understanding how your body will use the calories you consume can help you in setting up your nutritional program. Simply counting calories will not lead to bodyfat loss. Knowing that the heat liberated from a particular food, whether it is fat, protein, or carbohydrate is determined by its particular molecular structure, and that this structure determines its thermogenic effect. The higher the thermogenic effect of any particular food, the higher your metabolic rate. Know what you are consuming, but more importantly, know how your body will use your consumed calories. When planning your nutritional plan, remember that all calories are not created equal.
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    Originally Posted by Chachibenji View Post
    Pretty much everything you said here is wrong, extra spicy broscience in bold.
    Respectfully disagree. Tomorrow I will find my references citing exactly how protein has been seen to stimulate an insulin response. Also vegetable oils play a huge role in obesity through their high PUFA content. Too much omega-6 blocks omega-3 from working, because they compete for same enzymes. Omega-3 is essential for so many functions, including weight loss.
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysTryin View Post
    Your example however is entirely hypothetical as no one is going to drink lard and eat pure sugar for their calories
    Brb, eating protein and no fat to lose weight.

    Brb, eating carbs and fats with no protein to lose weight.

    Both cases are terribly unhealthy.
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    Lol @ fitnessTom


    Major fail.

    Are you a diabetic?

    Edit: can not quote from iPhone for some reason
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    I think the misconception that many people have, including myself possibly, is in regards to dietary fats vs. body fat.

    One would assume, eating fats, means gaining body fat. And also that eating too many carbs, convert to body fat. So in the end, they seem like the same fat.

    And there's a lot of opposing ideas. For example, I just found this online:

    A rather disadvantageous property of fat is that it is quickly and easily absorbed by the body and most goes directly to your waistline. This is because the conversion of dietary fat to body fat is easy and costs little energy.
    But then I found another saying:

    It takes more energy for the body to convert carbohydrates or protein to body fat than it does to convert dietary fat to body fat
    Seems like opposing views to me.

    Personally I'm not worried too much about fat, weight gain, etc because I'm very active and my focus is primarily on bodybuilding and gaining muscle. But as a Biology major and currently working on becoming a personal trainer, I find nutrition and stuff like this very interesting and want to clear up any misconceptions I have and that others may have as well. Fitness and health is very complex, but I love every bit of it.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    protein has been seen to stimulate an insulin response.
    I agree with this ^^
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    Originally Posted by Haveboards View Post
    Lol @ fitnessTom


    Major fail.

    Are you a diabetic?

    Edit: can not quote from iPhone for some reason
    Lol no, but I have done enough research to learn that the foods that are being sold to Americans have caused 34% of the population older than 20 to be overweight and another 34% to be obese.

    What goes hand in hand with obesity? Insulin resistance.

    So my information applies to the more common man with weight problems.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    Lol no, but I have done enough research to learn that the foods that are being sold to Americans have caused 34% of the population older than 20 to be overweight and another 34% to be obese.

    What goes hand in hand with obesity? Insulin resistance.
    You mean self control, not insulin resistance.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    High carb diets will make your body store more fat.
    De novo lipogenesis? Right...

    /facepalm
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    Exclamation

    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    Lol no, but I have done enough research to learn that the foods that are being sold to Americans have caused 34% of the population older than 20 to be overweight and another 34% to be obese.

    What goes hand in hand with obesity? Insulin resistance.

    So my information applies to the more common man with weight problems.

    I thought insulin resistance was the RESULT of being fat, not the cause.
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    Originally Posted by jpzsports View Post
    I think the misconception that many people have, including myself possibly, is in regards to dietary fats vs. body fat.

    One would assume, eating fats, means gaining body fat. And also that eating too many carbs, convert to body fat. So in the end, they seem like the same fat.

    And there's a lot of opposing ideas. For example, I just found this online:

    Quote:
    A rather disadvantageous property of fat is that it is quickly and easily absorbed by the body and most goes directly to your waistline. This is because the conversion of dietary fat to body fat is easy and costs little energy.


    But then I found another saying:


    Quote:
    It takes more energy for the body to convert carbohydrates or protein to body fat than it does to convert dietary fat to body fat

    Seems like opposing views to me.

    Personally I'm not worried too much about fat, weight gain, etc because I'm very active and my focus is primarily on bodybuilding and gaining muscle. But as a Biology major and currently working on becoming a personal trainer, I find nutrition and stuff like this very interesting and want to clear up any misconceptions I have and that others may have as well. Fitness and health is very complex, but I love every bit of it.
    You read something off the internet and are confused because you found something else that contradicts it? Maybe your reading the wrong bros. Stick to facts that can be backed up be science.

    Whether fat is more likely to be stored as fat as protein and carbs is irrelevant. When you consume an excess of calories then that excess will be stored as fat. Whether your body prefers to store the dietary fat as fat and burn off the carbs or whatever is of little consequence. The thing that causes an increase in fat stores is eating more calories than you burn. Fats won't make you fat, an excess of calories will.
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    Putting it simply; if fat intake resulted in fat gain, then a reduced or no fat intake would result in slimming. Theoretically, this is slightly correct in that a gram of fat is worth 9 kcal and taking in little or no fat would provide a very short period of weight loss, but the weight would pack back on when the person started to consume fats again because their hormones took a nose dive and they incurred other health problems because they lacked a proper diet.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    High carb diets will make your body store more fat.

    Some fats cause obesity, some fats fight it. Dietary fats like saturated and monounsaturated fats promote health and weight loss. Partially hydrogenated oils and vegetable oils = bad for health and weight loss.

    A high protein diet has been shown in studies to lead to fat gain just like a high carb diet, because too much protein at a meal can trigger insulin. So you have to be careful to eat just the right amount of protein needed for your activity (ie. lifters would eat more).
    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    Respectfully disagree. Tomorrow I will find my references citing exactly how protein has been seen to stimulate an insulin response. Also vegetable oils play a huge role in obesity through their high PUFA content. Too much omega-6 blocks omega-3 from working, because they compete for same enzymes. Omega-3 is essential for so many functions, including weight loss.
    You're full of **** brosef. You lack even the most basic understanding of nutrition in regards to body composition. Sit down and stfu.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    lol @ 20 year old kid who spends time reading a forum rather than real scientific studies. i learned what you know now 10 years ago. I changed my approach to weight loss through experience and research for many years.
    Irony.
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    Question

    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    lol @ 20 year old kid who spends time reading a forum rather than real scientific studies. i learned what you know now 10 years ago. I changed my approach to weight loss through experience and research for many years.
    Are you trolling?
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    Are you trolling?
    I assume not as he's still green?
    Yes... I've started a log - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159357321
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    lol @ 20 year old kid who spends time reading a forum rather than real scientific studies. i learned what you know now 10 years ago. I changed my approach to weight loss through experience and research for many years.
    I've negged you for this.

    20yo Joseph and 18yo Cumulonimbus are amongst the most dozen or so most knowlegeable, intelligent & respected posters here.

    You are spouting complete bollocks. Please go away.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    Lol no, but I have done enough research to learn that the foods that are being sold to Americans have caused 34% of the population older than 20 to be overweight and another 34% to be obese.

    What goes hand in hand with obesity? Insulin resistance.

    So my information applies to the more common man with weight problems.
    Correlation =/= causation

    It's not the specific composition of the foods themselves that are the problem. The problem is that people eat too bloody much & don't exercise enough. Food is plentiful, tasty, cheap & convenient in ways that it wasn't 40 years ago.

    And insulin resistance is caused by obesity. It doesn't cause it - in fact it works against the storage of calories.
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    Originally Posted by jpzsports
    Let's say someone at a 2000 calorie diet of pure protein and another person ate pure fat. They're both the same calories, but wouldn't the protein one lead to more muscle and a leaner body? And wouldn't the fat diet lead to a higher body fat % ?
    I swear everyone on this board looks for reasons to troll people lol I only used extreme examples because that's what op asked in his original post. calm down.
    Last edited by sciup; 05-26-2011 at 04:18 AM.
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    Originally Posted by FitnessTom View Post
    High carb diets will make your body store more fat.

    Some fats cause obesity, some fats fight it. Dietary fats like saturated and monounsaturated fats promote health and weight loss. Partially hydrogenated oils and vegetable oils = bad for health and weight loss.

    A high protein diet has been shown in studies to lead to fat gain just like a high carb diet, because too much protein at a meal can trigger insulin. So you have to be careful to eat just the right amount of protein needed for your activity (ie. lifters would eat more).
    [IIFYM]
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