Split question: Rippetoe and Dave Tate vs Louie Simmons and Jim Wendler

[WeLift.WeDie]

Not really a battle, just a question. I've read a handful of material by Mark Rippetoe, Dave Tate, Bill Starr, Jim Wendler, Joe DeFranco and Louie Simmons. Rippetoe, Tate, and Starr have an athlete/trainee perform multiple heavy core lifts in one day. Wendler, DeFranco, and Simmons have days for specific lifts. Is there any reason behind the differences? I have not read Practical Programming but I can assume it's not "Starting Strength" training, although I thought that 5x5 was a more advanced version of Rippetoe's core program.

I know the most important thing is not to worry about the specifics and go out and lift. I have been. But before I grab and label myself doing a high name routine I want to know why. Have I missed something? I don't recall anyone saying why different or same days are necessary. I know Rippetoe says that new lifters recover faster. Is Westside Barbell, DeFranco's Westside, and 5/3/1 not for beginners? What about 5x5?

Thanks.

[LiftHeavy85]

multiple compound lifts in a given day will not work once you hit a certain level.

Think SS on a day with a 200lber who has a 350+ squat 3x5, 225+ bench 3x5 and a 380+ deadlift all in the same workout. Fatigue will play a huge factor

SS/5x5 are mostly meant to get big numbers in a hurry where defrancos/5/3/1 will take a longer time (in terms on time spent training) to hit the same numbers since ur doing 1 main lift per week instead of 2-3.

Once you have reached a point where fatigue is hindering progress its time to move on which is where max effort and dynamic effort days come into play.

[WeLift.WeDie]

I guess I never thought about those numbers because I'm not nearly that strong lol. But thank you. It certainly help put things into perspective.

[martin_mathers]

multiple compound lifts in a given day will not work once you hit a certain level.

Think SS on a day with a 200lber who has a 350+ squat 3x5, 225+ bench 3x5 and a 380+ deadlift all in the same workout. Fatigue will play a huge factor

SS/5x5 are mostly meant to get big numbers in a hurry where defrancos/5/3/1 will take a longer time (in terms on time spent training) to hit the same numbers since ur doing 1 main lift per week instead of 2-3.

Once you have reached a point where fatigue is hindering progress its time to move on which is where max effort and dynamic effort days come into play.

I think a "higher" level lifter cant really benefit from SS is not because of doing all three lifts in a day but because of the progression of adding 5-10lbs a week. for instance im similar to your 200lbs lifter and sheiko has really worked for me. not that i am a high level lifter or anything but a lot of lifters have had great gains doing 2-3 main lifts a day. sometimes fatigue is what a lifter needs.
having said that there are real high level lifters who have gotten stronger doing SS.

[skills101]

OP, there's an entire book devoted to the subject, and you referenced it in your post. If you want the knowledge to best select a program, or at least understand the program you select, PPST2 is a great buy.

Best of luck

[ighairynutsack]

when u get up to the really really heavy weights the weights themselves tire you out enough to warrant not doing multiple heavy compounds in the same day. take a shirted 900+ bencher or high 500s raw for instance. it takes a long time to work up to the working weight. for some it can take around an hour just doing the main lift of the day not even counting assistance work afterwards. warmups for really heavy lifts can be a long process depending on the person as well not everyone can jump from 135 warmup to 405+x5. some need to do bar for reps,135 for reps, 225 for reps, 315 for reps, then 405 or whatever. sure its a warmup and all but the process is still draining.

[JiP]

multiple compound lifts in a given day will not work once you hit a certain level.

Think SS on a day with a 200lber who has a 350+ squat 3x5, 225+ bench 3x5 and a 380+ deadlift all in the same workout. Fatigue will play a huge factor

SS/5x5 are mostly meant to get big numbers in a hurry where defrancos/5/3/1 will take a longer time (in terms on time spent training) to hit the same numbers since ur doing 1 main lift per week instead of 2-3.

Once you have reached a point where fatigue is hindering progress its time to move on which is where max effort and dynamic effort days come into play.

That's when you do the texas method. The whole point of the program is to progress as quickly as possible and train to your full potential, the numbers you reach are superficial to determine your programming.

Your broscience level is over 9000.

[dtaps24]

Dave Tate is on the Rippetoe side of things and not the Westside? Huh.

OP different strokes for different folks, you should milk linear progression as much as possible and then re-evaluate, take into consideration where and how you're failing, come back with some more detail and then you can get opinions on what might work for you. Short answer is that there is no "right" way, but different approaches all of which have been implemented with success which is why those guys have gotten so much acclaim as coaches. Did wanna weigh in on this though:

multiple compound lifts in a given day will not work once you hit a certain level.

Think SS on a day with a 200lber who has a 350+ squat 3x5, 225+ bench 3x5 and a 380+ deadlift all in the same workout. Fatigue will play a huge factor

SS/5x5 are mostly meant to get big numbers in a hurry where defrancos/5/3/1 will take a longer time (in terms on time spent training) to hit the same numbers since ur doing 1 main lift per week instead of 2-3.

Once you have reached a point where fatigue is hindering progress its time to move on which is where max effort and dynamic effort days come into play.

Part 1- Correct concept, but lulzy numbers. There are plenty of 200 lbs. people who could do those (and more) pretty easily and it's different for every lifter. OP, do not try to place an objective standard on a subjective variable. In other words, make programming decisions on your progress (be honest in your self-assessment) rather than some tangible numbers arbirtrailly thrown out there as these are based on either someone's own experience and/or broscience.

Part 2 (Italics)- Pretty shaky, the programs each have their own progress rates and some people will progress faster doing 1 lift per week while others may respond better to volume. Also, 5/3/1 can both be adapted to hit any of the Big 3 (or 4 if you count Press) more than once a week and I think Defranco's is Upper 2x and Lower 2x per week.

Part 3 (Bold)- Just wrong. When recovery becomes a limiting factor (I don't like the term fatigue as some programs account for that in the actual programming) different programs handle it differently. Westside conjugates, Sheiko accumulates fatigue, 5x5 becomes less linear in the advanced program and recommends resets in the intermediate, TM rotates Volume and Intensity, and there are many other ways to go. It's not as simple as "Well I'm tired and I have plateaud, now I need to start doing DE and ME days and incorporating bands and chains," not to say it's not a possibility but to tell a beginner that once you hit X, do Y is a pretty slippery slope.

[godsangina2]

They all work, do whichever you like. If you squat three days a week like a Bill Starr kind of thing you can spread the work out over a couple of days, if you do it once a week you have to go balls to the wall in that one session.

[LiftHeavy85]

Dave Tate is on the Rippetoe side of things and not the Westside? Huh.

OP different strokes for different folks, you should milk linear progression as much as possible and then re-evaluate, take into consideration where and how you're failing, come back with some more detail and then you can get opinions on what might work for you. Short answer is that there is no "right" way, but different approaches all of which have been implemented with success which is why those guys have gotten so much acclaim as coaches. Did wanna weigh in on this though:



Part 1- Correct concept, but lulzy numbers. There are plenty of 200 lbs. people who could do those (and more) pretty easily and it's different for every lifter. OP, do not try to place an objective standard on a subjective variable. In other words, make programming decisions on your progress (be honest in your self-assessment) rather than some tangible numbers arbirtrailly thrown out there as these are based on either someone's own experience and/or broscience.

Part 2 (Italics)- Pretty shaky, the programs each have their own progress rates and some people will progress faster doing 1 lift per week while others may respond better to volume. Also, 5/3/1 can both be adapted to hit any of the Big 3 (or 4 if you count Press) more than once a week and I think Defranco's is Upper 2x and Lower 2x per week.

Part 3 (Bold)- Just wrong. When recovery becomes a limiting factor (I don't like the term fatigue as some programs account for that in the actual programming) different programs handle it differently. Westside conjugates, Sheiko accumulates fatigue, 5x5 becomes less linear in the advanced program and recommends resets in the intermediate, TM rotates Volume and Intensity, and there are many other ways to go. It's not as simple as "Well I'm tired and I have plateaud, now I need to start doing DE and ME days and incorporating bands and chains," not to say it's not a possibility but to tell a beginner that once you hit X, do Y is a pretty slippery slope.

thanks for the info

[Torrtrefireto]

The stronger I have gotten the more I have found results in squatting and benching on the same day.

I went upto 500 and 375 in sq and bench today, respectively... no elite numbers but big for me. I find that to have been much better in every way than doing it on two different days. Everyone is different. I see no decline in my bench performance even after doing 7 work sets of squats that day

[LiftHeavy85]

The stronger I have gotten the more I have found results in squatting and benching on the same day.

I went upto 500 and 375 in sq and bench today, respectively... no elite numbers but big for me. I find that to have been much better in every way than doing it on two different days. Everyone is different. I see no decline in my bench performance even after doing 7 work sets of squats that day

do you do it the same workout or split them apart by a few hours?

[dtaps24]

thanks for the info

No problem I wasn't being an ******* a lot of this is stuff you probably already know, but remember the OP is a beginner and we all have a tendency to think in absolutes.

[LiftHeavy85]

No problem I wasn't being an ******* a lot of this is stuff you probably already know, but remember the OP is a beginner and we all have a tendency to think in absolutes.

true, so I appreciate another viewpoint so I can see it from another angle

[Torrtrefireto]

do you do it the same workout or split them apart by a few hours?

Same workout, when I tried going multiple times a day I couldn't get the adrenaline pumping for the second workout. After unloading the squat rack I walk to a benhc and do the bar and 135 in excruitating pain from my lower back pump, but by 225 I usually feel fine

[austin.j.taylor]

Same workout, when I tried going multiple times a day I couldn't get the adrenaline pumping for the second workout. After unloading the squat rack I walk to a benhc and do the bar and 135 in excruitating pain from my lower back pump, but by 225 I usually feel fine

Does your workout take like 2 hours? I would have to break that up and eat in between lifts. yes fat-notasinglefukisgiven

[PaleoNoob]

No use debating which system is better, when the answer is usually "D, all of the above".

It's like Louis says, "Everything works. Nothing works forever."

[guest89]

Not familiar with DeFranco or Westside.


I tend to think of the other programs in this order.


-Starting Strength: For novice lifters
-Starrs 5x5: For intermediate lifters
-5/3/1: For more advanced lifters/people getting to the later stages of intermediate.





The determining factor isn't how long you've been lifting weights, it has to do with weight lifted/recovery time.

In SS you are adding 5lbs to the bar per workout on average, which is doable for a novice.
In 5x5 you are adding 5lb to the bar per week on average, which is doable for an intermediate.
In 5/3/1 I see it as a more advanced programming for individuals. I haven't done this program (but I did read the book awhile back) so the specifics aren't really fresh in my mind. I'm sure its an effective intermediate program as well but my impression was that it was better suited for someone who is an upper level intermediate/an advanced lifter.


In my mind, there is no reason to start a more advanced program before you absolutely need to simply because it will be slower progression. I'm only an intermediate lifer so my experience with more complex programs are limited, but I do know for a fact that programs like SS, the texas method, and starrs 5x5 are very effective novice/intermediate programs.

[Torrtrefireto]

Does your workout take like 2 hours? I would have to break that up and eat in between lifts. yes fat-notasinglefukisgiven

Um... I started lifting at 10 and got out at 1130 today

7 work sets of squat, 3 work sets of bench. I ate immediately before training (as in, chewing while walking to rack)

Average rest set between work sets was 1 song

[pntbll687]

multiple compound lifts in a given day will not work once you hit a certain level.

Think SS on a day with a 200lber who has a 350+ squat 3x5, 225+ bench 3x5 and a 380+ deadlift all in the same workout. Fatigue will play a huge factor

SS/5x5 are mostly meant to get big numbers in a hurry where defrancos/5/3/1 will take a longer time (in terms on time spent training) to hit the same numbers since ur doing 1 main lift per week instead of 2-3.

Once you have reached a point where fatigue is hindering progress its time to move on which is where max effort and dynamic effort days come into play.

I think if you are fatigued to the point where you cannot complete a workout you need some help. Yes some workouts will take longer if you need to rest more in between sets, but if you are that fatigued I think the question then becomes about training density rather than intensity. IS the work too dense to where you cannot complete sets? Or is the work not dense enough?

[BigLarge]

I see no decline in my bench performance even after doing 7 work sets of squats that day

Lucky you. Benching after squatting I do terrible.... and its not from fatigure, its from my shoulders and elbows feelings like they got beat with a hammer

[.aeterna]

Just another thing to add, is your daily life/workout schedule. Some people dont have a consistent schedule (due to work, family, etc.) and cannot go that standard MWF or SuTTh route.

5/3/1 is a perfect fit for people like that, because it is a low volume (oriented) program with a high emphasis on recovery. It is slower progression, but also (what I consider) safer in terms of injury prevention. I'll often go 4-6 days between workouts due to work and the rest of my lifting schedule for the month wont be ruined.

Not worrying about the set schedule makes life much easier, and also guarantees the best muscle recovery...

Just my experience thus far. I'm in the middle of my 3rd 5/3/1 cycle, and I have never put on more to my total on any other plan (namely set scheduled ones).

[DanielBeauchamp]

I have practically no isolation in my sessions, so I'll be doing anywhere from 2-4 compound lifts each day. I like training this way; you get used to it after a while.

[brudman]

Different strokes for different folks.

I think a lot of people would argue that Mike Tuchscherer is pretty smart about his training. Just read his journal at RTS...he abides by the principal of specificity and we would all agree he is "advanced" to say the least.

It's the very reason some have success with Sheiko based programming, while others have success with the conjugate method.

I can say that I would be farther along now if I had trained the big 3 a little more specifically as a beginner vs. training like a gym rat idiot for 2.5 years.

[ByronOrpheus]

As someone said earlier...



Fantastic book that helps explain the variations of intensity/volume/frequency over a lifters training career.

[7399martyn]

Im looking at doing Wendlers 5/3/1. Madcows 5x5 isnt what it used to me anymore for me.

But i cant quite wrap my head around how your lifts are meant to increase when you're only doing them 1.25x a week.

I also believe the lower volume will allow me to incoporate conditioning work that would otherwise hinder my recovery if i did high volume programs like Sheiko or Advanced 5x5.

[austin.j.taylor]

Im looking at doing Wendlers 5/3/1. Madcows 5x5 isnt what it used to me anymore for me.

But i cant quite wrap my head around how your lifts are meant to increase when you're only doing them 1.25x a week.

I also believe the lower volume will allow me to incoporate conditioning work that would otherwise hinder my recovery if i did high volume programs like Sheiko or Advanced 5x5.

on 5/3/1 you up the squat and deadlift 10 lbs a month and bench and press 5 lbs a month. Its much slower progress than any 5X5 will be, but designed to maintain pregress for a long time. Get wendlers book and read it. It should only take an hour or two to read the entire thing and everything is spelled in there.