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  1. #1
    Banned Steven987's Avatar
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    What is the agonist muscle during eccentric movment of squat?

    What is the agonist muscle during eccentric movment of squat?
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  2. #2
    Encyclochuzzle chazzy1864's Avatar
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    The same as the concentric. They are just fighting the weight down instead of up.
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  3. #3
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    so will it be quads?
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  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by Steven987 View Post
    so will it be quads?
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  5. #5
    Encyclochuzzle chazzy1864's Avatar
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    Quads/glutes/hams.

    Your squat style will sway emphasis, but it is the same as the concentric of whatever squat you're doing.
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  6. #6
    Registered User BombDonald's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    The same as the concentric. They are just fighting the weight down instead of up.
    Not true. Going down is a different motion than going up. You use your pulling muscles while descending in the squat and your pushing muscles when you are standing back up.
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  7. #7
    Methionine Squatz KeeronMac's Avatar
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    When you squat you work the hams/quads and glutes regardless off whether the phase is concentric or eccentric.

    On your way down your quads are taking the brunt, but once you break parallel with the ground its hams and glutes. Same on way up, bottom phase is hams and glutes but once your past parallel the quads dominate.

    Unless your one of these guys who loads up the bar and barely bends his knees, that's all quad
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  8. #8
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    Mostly hamstrings.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by BombDonald View Post
    Not true. Going down is a different motion than going up. You use your pulling muscles while descending in the squat and your pushing muscles when you are standing back up.
    Are you sure about that? Because when descending, your muscles are not pulling the weight, gravity is pulling the weight. True, the body is balancing the weight, and all, and that works muscles, but I don't see how the descent would require any pulling. It seems that according to that, the eccentric phase of a bicep curl should involve the triceps then, which it does not, to my knowledge.
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  10. #10
    Methionine Squatz KeeronMac's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Greco-Roman View Post
    Are you sure about that? Because when descending, your muscles are not pulling the weight, gravity is pulling the weight. True, the body is balancing the weight, and all, and that works muscles, but I don't see how the descent would require any pulling. It seems that according to that, the eccentric phase of a bicep curl should involve the triceps then, which it does not, to my knowledge.
    I agree. IMO when above parallel you are mainly using the quadriceps, below parallel requires the hamstrings and glutes to be activated, this is true for both the eccentric and concentric phases of the lift.

    To answer your question, quads are the main "AGONIST" (read title) during eccentric movement, until you break parallel obv

    "Agonist is a classification used to describe a muscle that causes specific movement or possibly several movements to occur through the process of its own contraction. This is typically a term designated for skeletal muscles. Agonists are also referred to, interchangeably, as "prime movers" since they are the muscles being considered that are primarily responsible for generating a specific movement"
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by Greco-Roman View Post
    Are you sure about that? Because when descending, your muscles are not pulling the weight, gravity is pulling the weight. True, the body is balancing the weight, and all, and that works muscles, but I don't see how the descent would require any pulling. It seems that according to that, the eccentric phase of a bicep curl should involve the triceps then, which it does not, to my knowledge.
    Think about the movement involved. When the squat is going up, it is a combination of knee and hip extension. When the squat is going down, it is a combination of knee and hip flexion.

    Also, the eccentric phase of a biceps curl involves elbow extension.... fill in the blanks.
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by BombDonald View Post
    Think about the movement involved. When the squat is going up, it is a combination of knee and hip extension. When the squat is going down, it is a combination of knee and hip flexion.

    Also, the eccentric phase of a biceps curl involves elbow extension.... fill in the blanks.
    Do a test for me, please.
    First, perform a regular squat with any weight.
    Next, rack the weight, stand back and pull the bar from the rack and allow it to drop to the ground freely.

    In which case did the bar move faster?
    Now fill in the blanks.


    To the OP: Unless your form going down is different from when you're coming up, the same exact muscles are being used in the same positions of the lift.
    Last edited by Remig; 05-14-2011 at 09:26 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by Remig View Post
    Do a test for me, please.
    First, perform a regular squat with any weight.
    Next, rack the weight, stand back and pull the bar from the rack and allow it to drop to the ground freely.

    In which case did the bar move faster?
    Now fill in the blanks.


    To the OP: Unless your form going down is different from when you're coming up, the same exact muscles are being used in the same positions of the lift.
    The first one. I am that fast.
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  14. #14
    Home Gym User Beachman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BombDonald View Post
    Not true. Going down is a different motion than going up. You use your pulling muscles while descending in the squat and your pushing muscles when you are standing back up.
    I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you please explain it further?
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  15. #15
    Methionine Squatz KeeronMac's Avatar
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    You don't pull the weight down in a squat, you fight the weight the whole way down!! Do you really "pull" the weight down?

    I know when I warm up sometimes I drop down into the bottom position and explode back up, but when I'm doing my working set, it is done in a controlled manner up and down.

    Anywho, OP, some people suggest partial rep squats to work the quads, proves what I said earlier, full ROM = quad, glute and ham activation, anything short of parallel is quads.
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by Beachman View Post
    I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you please explain it further?
    Just look at the actions involved. Different muscles for different movements.
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    Encyclochuzzle chazzy1864's Avatar
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    BD got me thinking and I do think he is right.

    Or at least, for a better lift, you should be pulling.

    On bench press, you have a stronger lift when you pull the bar down to your chest, then when you allow gravity to do the pulling alone.

    Pulling the bar down engages the lats, which in turn give you a better drive at the bottom of the lift. Where if you just fight it, your chest stays engaged but the lats aren't very active and you have a weaker push. :-/
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    Methionine Squatz KeeronMac's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    BD got me thinking and I do think he is right.

    Or at least, for a better lift, you should be pulling.

    On bench press, you have a stronger lift when you pull the bar down to your chest, then when you allow gravity to do the pulling alone.

    Pulling the bar down engages the lats, which in turn give you a better drive at the bottom of the lift. Where if you just fight it, your chest stays engaged but the lats aren't very active and you have a weaker push. :-/
    Totally disagree, how can you "pull" the weight down?? How can it be safe?? Surely you are merely aiding gravity by not providing resistance??? So all that happens is the weight drops quicker and you only work your muscles concentrically??

    IMO, doesn't matter what lift it is, this applies to all lifts. there are 3 phases to the lift, concentric, eccentric and static. To work the muscle fully you must work the muscle fully through ALL these phases. Granted that for squat there isn't a static hold, but certainly controlling the eccentric phase would stimulate the muscles more than dropping down? Also muscles are much stronger during eccentric movements, hence heavy negatives!
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  19. #19
    Encyclochuzzle chazzy1864's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KeeronMac View Post
    Totally disagree, how can you "pull" the weight down?? How can it be safe?? Surely you are merely aiding gravity by not providing resistance??? So all that happens is the weight drops quicker and you only work your muscles concentrically??
    I don't doubt you disagree. I've done the same w/ almost all of your posts I've seen.

    You pull the weight down, by pulling the weight down. It is safe, becuase you control it. I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the diesel crew guys can explain it better, although again, they just say, "Pull the weight down".

    If you've never done it, I can understand the ignorance. That being siad, there is a huge difference in pulling the bar down on bench and just fighting the descent.

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  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by KeeronMac View Post
    Totally disagree, how can you "pull" the weight down?? How can it be safe?? Surely you are merely aiding gravity by not providing resistance??? So all that happens is the weight drops quicker and you only work your muscles concentrically??

    IMO, doesn't matter what lift it is, this applies to all lifts. there are 3 phases to the lift, concentric, eccentric and static. To work the muscle fully you must work the muscle fully through ALL these phases. Granted that for squat there isn't a static hold, but certainly controlling the eccentric phase would stimulate the muscles more than dropping down? Also muscles are much stronger during eccentric movements, hence heavy negatives!
    I agree with this.

    When you are going down in a squat, you are not pulling at all. If you were pulling, then you would be going down faster than gravity. You go down slower because your muscles are preventing the weight from just collapsing on you. The muscles do this via a pushing motion, and it is the same motion as when you do the concentric phase, just not as intense.

    (I take lots of physics courses, so excuse the jargon) But consider this.The barbell in freefall goes down at 9.81m/s^2 acceleration, that's gravity. Now, when you are under the barbell, you go down slower than gravity, assuming you have control of the weight. It may not even accelerate downward, it may just go down at a constant speed. This is because you are counteracting the force of gravity with a force upwards. Gravity down, body up. Okay, so that's the eccentric. Now concentric, you are accelerating upwards, or constant speed upwards. Regardless of concentric, or eccentric motion, the muscles were all still always pushing in the same direction. The different is concentric requires a lot more force, because you are overcoming gravity completely. Eccentric you are not completely overcoming gravity, just softening it's acceleration.
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    I don't doubt you disagree. I've done the same w/ almost all of your posts I've seen.

    You pull the weight down, by pulling the weight down. It is safe, becuase you control it. I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the diesel crew guys can explain it better, although again, they just say, "Pull the weight down".

    If you've never done it, I can understand the ignorance. That being siad, there is a huge difference in pulling the bar down on bench and just fighting the descent.

    I'll admit I have not watched that video yet despite commenting on that post. That being said, it is physically impossible to pull a weight to your chest down, safely, slower than gravity. In the position of a barbell during bench press, gravity is Pulling the weight down, into you. You must overcome this by pushing the weight upwards. If you control the descent, you are still pushing the weight, you are just not pushing it hard enough to completely stop gravity, instead, you are pushing to mitigate gravity so it descends slower.
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    Arrow

    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    I don't doubt you disagree. I've done the same w/ almost all of your posts I've seen.

    You pull the weight down, by pulling the weight down. It is safe, becuase you control it. I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the diesel crew guys can explain it better, although again, they just say, "Pull the weight down".

    If you've never done it, I can understand the ignorance. That being siad, there is a huge difference in pulling the bar down on bench and just fighting the descent.

    Originally Posted by Greco-Roman View Post
    I'll admit I have not watched that video yet despite commenting on that post. That being said, it is physically impossible to pull a weight to your chest down, safely, slower than gravity. In the position of a barbell during bench press, gravity is Pulling the weight down, into you. You must overcome this by pushing the weight upwards. If you control the descent, you are still pushing the weight, you are just not pushing it hard enough to completely stop gravity, instead, you are pushing to mitigate gravity so it descends slower.
    Who benches more. That will surely settle this dispute.
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    Originally Posted by MWheatley View Post
    Who benches more. That will surely settle this dispute.
    I'll probably lose the dispute.



    Greco, next time you bench, focus on pulling. I'm telling you, it is worlds apart. I didn't until a couple months ago when I started focusing on my form. Same with squatting, it engages your hamstrings on the way down just like pulling on bench engages your lats on the way down.
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    I don't doubt you disagree. I've done the same w/ almost all of your posts I've seen.

    You pull the weight down, by pulling the weight down. It is safe, becuase you control it. I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Perhaps the diesel crew guys can explain it better, although again, they just say, "Pull the weight down".

    If you've never done it, I can understand the ignorance. That being siad, there is a huge difference in pulling the bar down on bench and just fighting the descent.
    Making it personal are we? I notice how you cant use the word ignorant in the proper context I totally understand what you mean by "pulling" the weight, please dont insult my intelligence. What I dont understand is why you would do this? You dont have to pull the bar down to make a steady base for the bench, just pull in your shoulder blades. and no I wont be trying it, I'm sure you do it too
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    Originally Posted by KeeronMac View Post
    Making it personal are we? I notice how you cant use the word ignorant in the proper context I totally understand what you mean by "pulling" the weight, please dont insult my intelligence. What I dont understand is why you would do this? You dont have to pull the bar down to make a steady base for the bench, just pull in your shoulder blades. and no I wont be trying it, I'm sure you do it too
    Not really personal, just observational. I've facepalmed quite a few of your posts, so it leads me to believe I'd continue to do it.

    If you don't know of a subject, you are ignorant. I wasn't insulting your intelligence. You can read about something till the cows come home, but if you haven't done it, you won't understand the difference in it.

    Who said anything about steady base?

    I didn't tell you to try it. I've already lost faith in you once you bragged about your 286-350lb deadlift w/ an eye wink at people in another thread. I was talking to greco who I like as a poster.
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    I'll probably lose the dispute.



    Greco, next time you bench, focus on pulling. I'm telling you, it is worlds apart. I didn't until a couple months ago when I started focusing on my form. Same with squatting, it engages your hamstrings on the way down just like pulling on bench engages your lats on the way down.
    You may think you are pulling, but you are actually pushing. If you are pulling, and gravity is naturally pulling, the weight is coming down faster than gravity in free-fall.

    Here are some diagrams, excuse my poor drawing ability. I tried to first set up and explain what a Free body diagram is. The figure with the X is supposed to be a person bench pressing.
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    Encyclochuzzle chazzy1864's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Greco-Roman View Post
    You may think you are pulling, but you are actually pushing. If you are pulling, and gravity is naturally pulling, the weight is coming down faster than gravity in free-fall.

    Here are some diagrams, excuse my poor drawing ability. I tried to first set up and explain what a Free body diagram is. The figure with the X is supposed to be a person bench pressing.
    I know you aren't pulling a free fall. Other muscles are still pushing the weight to control it.

    There is though a noticeable difference in pulling the weight. I had no clue what the videos were talking about, until I tried it.
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    Registered User Greco-Roman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    I know you aren't pulling a free fall. Other muscles are still pushing the weight to control it.

    There is though a noticeable difference in pulling the weight. I had no clue what the videos were talking about, until I tried it.
    Pulling refers to moving the weight towards your body. If you apply any pulling force, it would be in conjuction with gravity, because gravity is also pulling.

    Again, you may not realize it, but you are actually pushing. Your lats may be pulling your shoulders, or something a part of your body, but the barbell is always being pushed.
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    Originally Posted by chazzy1864 View Post
    Pulling the bar down engages the lats, which in turn give you a better drive at the bottom of the lift. Where if you just fight it, your chest stays engaged but the lats aren't very active and you have a weaker push. :-/
    Good base of support??? You face-palmed nothing And i was not bragging about about anything, BD asked a question and he got an answer.

    You are right, you have to try something to truly understand it, but in order to try it out there must be a general understanding of what you are doing. I dont understand how you can pull in a bench or squat, does that mean i should push the weight down after i deadlift??

    No trolling BD, just observin
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